A theological question...
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Ben Ashley wrote: Apologies, but I don't see the flaw. My question states that: A great engineer verifies his work, and the process is logical. A fundamentalist (Insert religion), believes in something illogical but cannot verify. My opinion is that the flaw is two-fold: 1. People have both logical and illogical sides. Just because a person is logical in one area does not mean they have to be logical in all areas. 2. Believing in a religion does not make one illogical. Being very general, one can find logic in a religion. For the most part, when you dig down deep enough there is a point where you find a very unstable foundation and the whole thing falls apart. For the most part, they end up being a moral code based upon something flimsy. But above that point you will find people who have very logical, religious beliefs (disregarding whether there is good evidence for those beliefs). But you most likely know all of this, are bored, and looking for a good fight. Sean Winstead
To answer..: 1) I agree a persons viewpoints may differ between subjects. But I think that religion and the very nature of an engineer's work are such that the underlaying brain processes of logic and illogic must intertwine. 2) Religion has various grounds that we can point at and say "yes, that's cool, I can live by that". All religions tend to teach a passive, loveable attitude which is great and something I can deal with. The lesser among us need that kind of help to get out of their Tesco-bag-packing job. But the heaven/hell etherel award/fire and brimstone crap is a bit out-dated... Perhaps I didn't make it clear... this engineer was a fire-and-brimstone guy. No fight being looked for... just a conversation starter/stopper. When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
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yes, I know them. That's what I am trying to figure out. When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
why don't you ask one of them. Josef Wainz Software Developer
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Ben Ashley wrote: Having Faith in something with NO evidence, and NO hard truths is illogical. Why are you assuming that having faith in a deity is without evidence? There is tons of evidence you could use. Of course, it does depend on how you interpret that evidence. If your nose runs and your feet smell, then you're built upside down.
Navin wrote: There is tons of evidence you could use Sorry for being blunt but, ... like what? When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
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Reasoned thinking is better than illogical, because it says that although you don't know all the facts you're going to perform a best-guess thought. When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
Ben Ashley wrote: Reasoned thinking is better than illogical, because it says that although you don't know all the facts you're going to perform a best-guess thought. I don't know all the facts about our universe, therefore a best-guess thought I have (based on the evidence and truths I know) is that God does exist. So why don't you just come right out and call me an illogical bafoon?
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
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Some good points, however... "...you can live your life logically, and also have faith that the deity of your choice exists and knows what he's doing..." Having Faith in something with NO evidence, and NO hard truths is illogical. Surely?:confused: When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
Ben Ashley wrote: Having Faith in something with NO evidence, and NO hard truths is illogical. In a perfect world, perhaps. The truth here is, to get by day to day, we take a *lot* of things on faith. We're taught to do this from a young age. Mother tells us "don't put your fingers in the wall sockets, you'll get hurt". We've seen no evidence of that. Those wall sockets look pretty harmless to me... After the crying and shaking stops, we see the advantages of having a bit of faith in Mother's words. Obtaining hard evidence on the dangers of Draino milkshakes can wait.
Shog9 --
Exchanging a walk-on part in the War
for the lead role in a Cage
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Ben Ashley wrote: Having Faith in something with NO evidence, and NO hard truths is illogical. What are hard truths? I may have ample truths to believe, but you may not find those good enough. Answer me this: What does it prove to God that we will only believe in him if we can prove he exists?
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
What does it prove to God that we will only believe in him if we can prove he exists? If God exists, it proves nothing as it is a pointless lesson. If he doesn't exist, it means even less. When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
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To answer..: 1) I agree a persons viewpoints may differ between subjects. But I think that religion and the very nature of an engineer's work are such that the underlaying brain processes of logic and illogic must intertwine. 2) Religion has various grounds that we can point at and say "yes, that's cool, I can live by that". All religions tend to teach a passive, loveable attitude which is great and something I can deal with. The lesser among us need that kind of help to get out of their Tesco-bag-packing job. But the heaven/hell etherel award/fire and brimstone crap is a bit out-dated... Perhaps I didn't make it clear... this engineer was a fire-and-brimstone guy. No fight being looked for... just a conversation starter/stopper. When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
Ben Ashley wrote: The lesser among us need that kind of help to get out of their Tesco-bag-packing job. But the heaven/hell etherel award/fire and brimstone crap is a bit out-dated... This is your problem. Just because your friend has a different belief, you chastise him. You can't prove that he will be wrong. Therefore it is illogical for you to think Christians (fundamental or otherwise) are stupid (you said lesser among us).
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
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Navin wrote: There is tons of evidence you could use Sorry for being blunt but, ... like what? When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
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You have to forgive me here. I'm not pointing fingers saying they can or can't do this. I'm sitting here pondering what the ramifications of it is. When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
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Ben Ashley wrote: Reasoned thinking is better than illogical, because it says that although you don't know all the facts you're going to perform a best-guess thought. I don't know all the facts about our universe, therefore a best-guess thought I have (based on the evidence and truths I know) is that God does exist. So why don't you just come right out and call me an illogical bafoon?
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
We could sit here for hours and talk about the facts you do know about the universe and, based on the evidence and truths you know, you believe in a God. It may seem to be illogical to me, but that does not mean you're a bafoon. When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
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Ben Ashley wrote: Having Faith in something with NO evidence, and NO hard truths is illogical. In a perfect world, perhaps. The truth here is, to get by day to day, we take a *lot* of things on faith. We're taught to do this from a young age. Mother tells us "don't put your fingers in the wall sockets, you'll get hurt". We've seen no evidence of that. Those wall sockets look pretty harmless to me... After the crying and shaking stops, we see the advantages of having a bit of faith in Mother's words. Obtaining hard evidence on the dangers of Draino milkshakes can wait.
Shog9 --
Exchanging a walk-on part in the War
for the lead role in a Cage
But alot of lessons were also learned the hard way. Yes, mother says "don't stick your hand in a boiling kettle"... some of us tried it, some of us got hurt and some of us did not do it again. That's hard facts for you. Then there are also some of us who never did do it because mom said not to. My mother has told me a lot of things, and not all of them have been correct so unfortunately I can't place her on the "defacto truth" panel. When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
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What does it prove to God that we will only believe in him if we can prove he exists? If God exists, it proves nothing as it is a pointless lesson. If he doesn't exist, it means even less. When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
Ben Ashley wrote: If God exists, it proves nothing as it is a pointless lesson. Faith is fundamental to the free-will argument. If we knew for certain that God existed and that he was holding the whole fire and brimstone thing over our heads, then we would definitely be good even if we have the desire to be bad. Our life here may be training for the life to come. It could also be viewed as a sieve (sp?).
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
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We could sit here for hours and talk about the facts you do know about the universe and, based on the evidence and truths you know, you believe in a God. It may seem to be illogical to me, but that does not mean you're a bafoon. When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
Ben Ashley wrote: It may seem to be illogical to me, but that does not mean you're a bafoon. You came right out in another post that you thought the "lesser among us" used religion as a crutch.
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
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Ben Ashley wrote: The lesser among us need that kind of help to get out of their Tesco-bag-packing job. But the heaven/hell etherel award/fire and brimstone crap is a bit out-dated... This is your problem. Just because your friend has a different belief, you chastise him. You can't prove that he will be wrong. Therefore it is illogical for you to think Christians (fundamental or otherwise) are stupid (you said lesser among us).
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
At no point did I say Christians were stupid, and more importantly I am not chastising a friend because he has different beliefs. My question was simple... it was to discuss the difference between what I called logical and what I called illogical... the temporary candidates for those two positions was an engineer and a christian. There is no malice or malcontent here. When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
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At no point did I say Christians were stupid, and more importantly I am not chastising a friend because he has different beliefs. My question was simple... it was to discuss the difference between what I called logical and what I called illogical... the temporary candidates for those two positions was an engineer and a christian. There is no malice or malcontent here. When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
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And my existence proves what, exactly? When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
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Ben Ashley wrote: If God exists, it proves nothing as it is a pointless lesson. Faith is fundamental to the free-will argument. If we knew for certain that God existed and that he was holding the whole fire and brimstone thing over our heads, then we would definitely be good even if we have the desire to be bad. Our life here may be training for the life to come. It could also be viewed as a sieve (sp?).
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
True. So, conversely, if we were not sure that God existed we'd make different decisions to what we do now, oh wait... When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
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Ben Ashley wrote: It may seem to be illogical to me, but that does not mean you're a bafoon. You came right out in another post that you thought the "lesser among us" used religion as a crutch.
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
a crutch, perhaps. Not a very good one as it'll only hold out so long. A bafoon? No way. Bafoons wouldn't know where to start. When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
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Actually, I find it rather obscure. I'm thinking that perhaps you are religious and that you have taken offence in some way. Either that or you're dating one. It is not so much a "thinking less of", rather a "not understanding". If you recall, my original question was for a result of understanding rather than criticism. I couldn't give two rat's asses if you believe in God, Buddah, Allah, Cheese or some retarded animal on a life-glug in it's own stable. I couldn't care less. Throughout this discussion, you have missed the point completely and taken my points as an anti-religious argument. I'd suspect nothing less from a mindwashed religious zealot, however you're on CodeProject.com so I also assume you're an engineer/coder/computer person of some sort. And I tell you, that's left me TOTALLY confused. When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
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To answer..: 1) I agree a persons viewpoints may differ between subjects. But I think that religion and the very nature of an engineer's work are such that the underlaying brain processes of logic and illogic must intertwine. 2) Religion has various grounds that we can point at and say "yes, that's cool, I can live by that". All religions tend to teach a passive, loveable attitude which is great and something I can deal with. The lesser among us need that kind of help to get out of their Tesco-bag-packing job. But the heaven/hell etherel award/fire and brimstone crap is a bit out-dated... Perhaps I didn't make it clear... this engineer was a fire-and-brimstone guy. No fight being looked for... just a conversation starter/stopper. When it comes to maths and me, the wheel's going but the hamster's dead.
I guess you are saying that this engineer was unable to think logically which could be demonstrated in both his work, and personal beliefs. I wonder if you have doubts and if maybe he/she stuck a nerve. If I worked with someone that truly believed in the Easter bunny, and he was a bad engineer there would be no debate. I bet this guy won the debate and so you are still trying to win it, without him on Code Project. When I read your comments like the lesser among us, and this is because someone doesn’t share your believes, you sound kind of religious yourself.