Evolution
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Oh boy. This is gonna be good :) Evolution always tries to go on in one way or another. It's just random mutations + survival of the fittest. The problem is that we humans have removed the 'survival of the fittest' so that most mutations - both good and bad - stay within the gene pool. We no longer adapt to our climate - we adapt our climate to our tastes; we no longer adapt to food sources, or to inhospitable places, or to darkness, or to anything. Over hundreds or thousands of generations there should be small differences popping up that give one branch of descendants a breeding/survival advantage over others and so they should then become dominant, but that hasn't been happening for tens of thousands of years so essentially evolution has stopped for us. We're it. Scary. There is another theory I've read that says evolution happens in sudden leaps instead of minute steps. Maybe someday there will be a family born with something so amazing that they will start to dominate. But what advantage or trait, other than business sense or common sense, would make one person more likely to survive/breed than another? cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
I agree that to a large degree we have changed evolution by adjusting our environment to our needs rather than breeding to meet the environments requirements. But I doubt evolution has actually stopped. For one we are adapting to our own man made environments, like cities and underground tube networks. Certainly middle-ages man is not a perfect being for a city and so we are evolving away from that to better fit into our cities. The problem is that evolution takes tens of thousands of years, not the puny thousands that we have been around. So we will not notice any changes, but just because there are no noticeable changes does not mean it has stopped, right? I do not really know enough about evolution to base this on much though. On another point, maybe what is really "evolving" is our culture and knowledge. Maybe these evolutionary paths have overtaken the physical paths and become the more important ones. Sure this is not evolution as we know it but certainly and important aspect of it. But what advantage or trait, other than business sense or common sense, would make one person more likely to survive/breed than another? Well thanks to our culture certain genes, such as blonde hair, fair skin, athletic ability, "brain capacity" and all the other things that "the beautiful people" have are certainly traits that are favoured, traits that are more likely amongst 6billion to survive. All in all we need a good many, many more years before we can see whether evolution is really changing us. By that time though our technology will be crafting us into whatever the currently accepted flavour is. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
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I wasn't just thinking of Genesis 1, but even then, things were created, which is the opposite of evolving. On the other hand, evolution is often put against the religion for a simple reason that religious souls don't quite understand how the science works. Such a comparison doesn't make sense. Evolution is just a tool, an idea and concept to measure, explain and predict the world around. It doesn't require the faith and it doesn't even have to be true or accurate. It's good enought for everyday usage by biologist trying to describe the organic world around. Bible and God are totally out of scope from the evolutionary point of view. Evolution may even go away and be replaced by some other theory in the future, just like many other theories in the past. My point exactly. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
I wasn't just thinking of Genesis 1, but even then, things were created, which is the opposite of evolving. I am not following your logic here. Why would creation, specially as the one described in the Bible, be oposite of evolving? I would dare to say that Bible is kind of attempting to describe the evolution in the way. My point exactly. Which part precisely is your point? religious souls don't quite understand how the science works? or: Such a comparison doesn't make sense? or: Evolution is just a tool?
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If memory serves me correctly, Christian was the only person to respond and that portion of the thread died very quickly. I just respond to everything to keep my post count up ;P BTW shouldn't you be in bed ? I know I should be. Actually, wait, we're an hour ahead of you guys, aren't we ? ;P Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
I just respond to everything to keep my post count up ;P You bastard, it's people like you, David Wulff and Rogers Smith that will force me into my own thread. It will be several hundred posts long and involve me and only me arguing with myself. And probably losing. :laugh: Actually, wait, we're an hour ahead of you guys, aren't we? ;P Yeah, we're looking after the curtains up here. What with real proper sunlight and all. ;) Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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> BTW shouldn't you be in bed ? Geeze, who died and made *you* God? LOLOL To hell with those thin-skinned pillow-biters. - Me, 10/03/2001
Actually he's referring to the fact it's 11:00 pm here in Sydney and Midnight in Hobart when he made the post. :) Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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Yep! that friggin' Twix advert. It took me ages to claw back my credibility. I should sue Rowntree's. :( Norm Almond Chief Technical Architect FS Walker Hughes Limited
Lol. Go Norm GO! :laugh: Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
(andy.metcalfe@lineone.net)
http://www.resorg.co.uk"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;))
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I just respond to everything to keep my post count up ;P You bastard, it's people like you, David Wulff and Rogers Smith that will force me into my own thread. It will be several hundred posts long and involve me and only me arguing with myself. And probably losing. :laugh: Actually, wait, we're an hour ahead of you guys, aren't we? ;P Yeah, we're looking after the curtains up here. What with real proper sunlight and all. ;) Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
Yeah, we're looking after the curtains up here. What with real proper sunlight and all. I gotta hand it to you - that's an pretty good comeback... Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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> To, in fact, not just play god, but become god. At that point, I will glad to welcome the rest of humanity to my already god-like presence. To hell with those thin-skinned pillow-biters. - Me, 10/03/2001
At that point, I will glad to welcome the rest of humanity to my already god-like presence. Well God, I feel obliged to alert you to the fact your homepage has been hacked. They have inserted a picture of some dorky bloke in a cowboy hat. not very Godlike at all. :laugh: Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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Faith is for the fortunate or the blind, IMHO. Faith in the Bible is not blind, but based on experience. The rest of us have to struggle with these questions, with our lives. It is a fruitless struggle and I say don't look outwards for your answers but look inwards. I don't believe I will ever find peace, but I have found something better through the challenging of life and also, sounds corny, through love. (arrogant, inflaming opinion warning) People with faith either truly have an understanding which cannot be conveyed with mortal tongue OR they are blind to their own deception and, not being able to cope with a world of questions, blindly believe. I believe a lot of people suffer from the later. I can't disagree - a lot of people blindly place faith in ideas that have no proof to back them up. Lucky for me the Bible does not require this of me. In moments of weakness I wish I had faith, then I remember all the things I would have missed in life had I had faith, and am glad I am an heretic Blind faith is about as valuable as believing in the Great Pumpkin, it is a nice idea that can bring no lasting peace. That is not what I am on about, though. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
I am not saying that I wish I had blind faith. Sometimes, but only in moments of weakness, I wish I had your kind of faith. A faith which to you is true through various reasons (proof, experience etc.) I am happy for you that you have found or experienced proof sufficient for faith to be generated in you, just as I hope you are happy that I am not of faith through my own reasons and experiences (or lack of them). LOL, this sounds strange but; Show me proof that Linux is better for me than Windows and I will change. Show me proof that the Bible is true and I will change. Till that day I use Windows, till that day I have no faith :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
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Yeah, we're looking after the curtains up here. What with real proper sunlight and all. I gotta hand it to you - that's an pretty good comeback... Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Yaeh, and I'm still trying all my best/worst grammar to piss Chris off, and he's still not biting. Thems the best darn chittlin's I ever gotten on my plate. (fuck context) :-D Did I mention it confuses the chickens and cows? Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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I don't have enough faith to believe in evolution, so I can't comment... I resisted the urge for months, but now must ask a contentious question. How do you explain the Dinosaurs, Primates and other prehistoric species that no longer exist? :confused: Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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I agree that to a large degree we have changed evolution by adjusting our environment to our needs rather than breeding to meet the environments requirements. But I doubt evolution has actually stopped. For one we are adapting to our own man made environments, like cities and underground tube networks. Certainly middle-ages man is not a perfect being for a city and so we are evolving away from that to better fit into our cities. The problem is that evolution takes tens of thousands of years, not the puny thousands that we have been around. So we will not notice any changes, but just because there are no noticeable changes does not mean it has stopped, right? I do not really know enough about evolution to base this on much though. On another point, maybe what is really "evolving" is our culture and knowledge. Maybe these evolutionary paths have overtaken the physical paths and become the more important ones. Sure this is not evolution as we know it but certainly and important aspect of it. But what advantage or trait, other than business sense or common sense, would make one person more likely to survive/breed than another? Well thanks to our culture certain genes, such as blonde hair, fair skin, athletic ability, "brain capacity" and all the other things that "the beautiful people" have are certainly traits that are favoured, traits that are more likely amongst 6billion to survive. All in all we need a good many, many more years before we can see whether evolution is really changing us. By that time though our technology will be crafting us into whatever the currently accepted flavour is. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
But I doubt evolution has actually stopped. Well I actively evolving myself. I'm drinking lower quality beer due to price hikes and surviving. ;P Well thanks to our culture certain genes, such as blonde hair, fair skin, athletic ability, "brain capacity" and all the other things that "the beautiful people" have... I take it have dark hair and skin, get puffed out walking to the fridge and have a pointy head. :laugh: Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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It won't happen over night, but it will happen. ;P From a shampoo commercial here in Australia. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
Is this commercial about magical self-refilling bottles of shampoo? ;P Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
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It took me ages to claw back my credibility. You have/had credibility? :confused: Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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Is this commercial about magical self-refilling bottles of shampoo? ;P Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
No it's about (I think) a shampoo that will fix your damaged hair. No matter how bad. Cheesy as hell, but something in the previous post reminded me of it. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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I read a really good novel on that subject a few months ago and (typically) I can't remember the name or author. DOH! :rolleyes: I'll see if I can find it tonight and I'll post the details. It's pretty thought provoking. I don't think that society as a whole is very accepting of anyone who differs from the "norm" (all you have to do is watch daytime TV to see that), so I'd guess the usual things would happen - persecution (in at least some parts of the world), media hounding, etc. etc. I wouldn't envy those involved, I know that much. :(( Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
(andy.metcalfe@lineone.net)
http://www.resorg.co.uk"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;))
Sounds like "Darwins Radio" by Greg Bear. Regards, Dave
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We are all entitled to our own beliefs and ideas. Frankly I am in awe of people who have faith because I find it very, nay VERY, difficult simply to believe in something without proof. Most of the time I atually wish I did have faith, life would be simpler. But as it were I find it a lot more odd to believe in the creation of beings from dust than from the eons long process of evolution. Bottom line though, the question of human origin pales in significance to the question of the universes origin... to my understanding of life we should not be here, nothing should be here. Not even nothing should exist. I want someone, one day to explain to me how out of nothing something came to be. The big bang is all well and nice (I believe in it) but what the hell started that? Other fun questions: - Were did God come from? - Were did whatever created God come from? - ad infinitum! (this series of questions got me thrown out of Sunday school :) ) One thing I do know: Any parent who tells their kids that either religion or evolution is right and the other is wrong needs a fat smack. Kids must make their own choice in the matter. No matter how hard you believe in something not even your kids are valid targets for "ideas down throat" behaviour. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible." - Chretien Malesherbes
I want someone, one day to explain to me how out of nothing something came to be. The big bang is all well and nice (I believe in it) but what the hell started that? OK - bring that case of beer you are gonna owe me round to my place one day and I'll go through it with you. I haven't done this stuff for 10 years, but if my creaky memory serves me well then there are a couple of things you need to warp your brain around: - there is no 'outside' of the universe. - there is no 'before' the big bang. The universe isn't a bubble within a big empty room. The universe is that big empty room, yet the room, and the space and time that make up that room are expanding constantly - each point moving away from every other point due to the initial expansion and inflation of the universe. Maybe you should bring a spare case of beer. Just in case. As to how the universe was created and where it's energy came from, the answer to both is 'nothing'. There is a continual quantum foam of particles and anti-particles being created and anihilated (which is what causes black holes to evaporate - bring some tequila for that little fireside chat). As long as the net energy balance is always 0 then Mother Nature turns a blind eye. One theory goes that the Big Bang was a total doozy of a quantum fluctuation, with the energy contained in matter being counter balanced by the negative energy in gravity. The cool part comes from a theory that there came into being a 'false vacuum' whereby a part of the infinitesimal quantum fluctuation had a positive energy density even though it was a vacuum. This false vacuum has very large, but very negative pressure. Pressure creates a gravitational field, so a large, negative pressure in an infinititely small volume creates a very large, repulsive gravitational field which causes the universe to inflate by a factor of 10^25. What's really, really cool is that even while the universe is inflating the energy density remains constant. Energy increases by the cube of the inflation rate (ie 10^75) and is balanced out by an ever increasing gravitational field (which has negative energy). The inflation slows, the universe cools, quarks, protons, electrons and atoms form and eventually coagulate together to form Paul Watson. Total energy = 0 => the ultimate free lunch. cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
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I want someone, one day to explain to me how out of nothing something came to be. The big bang is all well and nice (I believe in it) but what the hell started that? OK - bring that case of beer you are gonna owe me round to my place one day and I'll go through it with you. I haven't done this stuff for 10 years, but if my creaky memory serves me well then there are a couple of things you need to warp your brain around: - there is no 'outside' of the universe. - there is no 'before' the big bang. The universe isn't a bubble within a big empty room. The universe is that big empty room, yet the room, and the space and time that make up that room are expanding constantly - each point moving away from every other point due to the initial expansion and inflation of the universe. Maybe you should bring a spare case of beer. Just in case. As to how the universe was created and where it's energy came from, the answer to both is 'nothing'. There is a continual quantum foam of particles and anti-particles being created and anihilated (which is what causes black holes to evaporate - bring some tequila for that little fireside chat). As long as the net energy balance is always 0 then Mother Nature turns a blind eye. One theory goes that the Big Bang was a total doozy of a quantum fluctuation, with the energy contained in matter being counter balanced by the negative energy in gravity. The cool part comes from a theory that there came into being a 'false vacuum' whereby a part of the infinitesimal quantum fluctuation had a positive energy density even though it was a vacuum. This false vacuum has very large, but very negative pressure. Pressure creates a gravitational field, so a large, negative pressure in an infinititely small volume creates a very large, repulsive gravitational field which causes the universe to inflate by a factor of 10^25. What's really, really cool is that even while the universe is inflating the energy density remains constant. Energy increases by the cube of the inflation rate (ie 10^75) and is balanced out by an ever increasing gravitational field (which has negative energy). The inflation slows, the universe cools, quarks, protons, electrons and atoms form and eventually coagulate together to form Paul Watson. Total energy = 0 => the ultimate free lunch. cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
What about these hyperspace tunnels between separate universes? How do they fit into this picture? ;) Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
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At that point, I will glad to welcome the rest of humanity to my already god-like presence. Well God, I feel obliged to alert you to the fact your homepage has been hacked. They have inserted a picture of some dorky bloke in a cowboy hat. not very Godlike at all. :laugh: Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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:laugh: hah, hah - hey guys we've a joker in our midst... ;P Norm Almond Chief Technical Architect FS Walker Hughes Limited
:laugh: hah, hah - hey guys we've a joker in our midst...;P Joker no, Bastard yes. :-D Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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I don't have enough faith to believe in evolution, so I can't comment... I resisted the urge for months, but now must ask a contentious question. How do you explain the Dinosaurs, Primates and other prehistoric species that no longer exist? :confused: Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
Boy, I miss a day and look at the good discussions I get left out of... How do you explain the Dinosaurs, Primates and other prehistoric species that no longer exist? Um... They died? ;P A little more verbosely, the Bible teaches that God created the world somewhere around 6,000-7,000 years ago. During the week of creation, God created everything saving man and most of the dinosaurs we think of for the sixth day. Roughly 2000 years later, Noah and his family were the only humans who even gave God a second thought. In spite of 120 years of warnings from Noah, none of them changed their minds, and God sent a flood that killed every human that wasn't in the ark as well as lots of sea creatures and probably all of the land creatures that weren't in the ark. (That's why we have so many fossils.) At that point were down to just a few dinosaurs, 2 of each kind (where a kind isn't a species, but is classified as the group of animals or plants that can breed with each other). There is evidence that dinosaurs were around for a while after that too. Most countries have dinosaur legends (called dragons until one or two hundred years ago). And most of those legends have one thing in common -- heros killing dragons. Sounds like a good explanation to me. I'm not sure what you're referring to with the "primates and other prehistoric species", especially since the only true "pre-history" is the non-time before(?) God created the universe. John
