Has it come to this?
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Paul Watson wrote: And I hope the other guys are right in that XAML is mainly for the interface and lightweight scripting type apps Yep, it's for quickly throwing together a UI. It's not a new language or anything (you can't create methods and the like inside a XAML source file); it's just for describing a graphical user interface; create a button, describe its appearance, etc. That's ok by me... The graveyards are filled with indispensible men.
Rock on then, going to be great for us web-devs since we already know how to develop UIs with that kind of tech. Bit of a change for Windows App developers though. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Miszou wrote: I have read the entire internet. on how boring his day was. Crikey! ain't life grand?
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Isn't that picture of the UI about the ugliest thing you've ever seen? It's hideous. It's stupid. It chews up a massive amount of precious vertical space. There isn't a chance in hell anyone in usability actually gave a stamp of approval to this nightmare. XAML is nothing but HTML on steroids and a groovy new buzzword name. This is all about writing ASP and web apps, then trying to shoehorn stand-alone client app development into the same paradigm. (Ironically, if the look and feel was so stupendously great, why didn't Office 2003 incorporate it? If .NET is the end-all of programming why can't I find a single commercial Microsoft application written in it, let alone have the same look?) Microsoft has abandoned the stand-alone application developer. MFC and WTL are not being updated and supported except by lip service. There was a time I could use MFC to create an app that had the same look and feel as Word. That ended three years ago. I don't mind .NET and think even the new crap will be useful in large corporate IT environments. But where is the support for users not involved in this relatively narrow experience? Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
>If .NET is the end-all of programming why can't I find a single commercial Microsoft application written in it Isn't Longhorn basically written in .NET? Managed code and all that? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Miszou wrote: I have read the entire internet. on how boring his day was. Crikey! ain't life grand?
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Agreed, Chris. Browsers are the absolute worst form of UI in use today. X| But I imagine that it's all about money. More developers means more apps produced, which means more copies of MS products sold (Windows, VS, XML editors, books, training, certifications, and so on). This one offended me even more: Create Real Apps Using New Code and Markup Model[^]. What, is all the software I've written over the past 9 years not "real" enough for them? Please. And check out the screen shots in that one. X| I know they're silly examples, but again it shows how nasty bad UIs can be. --Mike-- Ericahist [updated Oct 26] | CP SearchBar v2.0.2 | Homepage | RightClick-Encrypt | 1ClickPicGrabber #include "witty-quote.h"
Here's the real insult. From the article: Here's the XAML code:
< Button Background="LightSeaGreen" FontSize="24pt"> Calculate < /Button >Here's the C# code:Button btn = new Button(); btn.Background = Brushes.LightSeaGreen; btn.FontSize = new FontSize(24, FontSizeType.Point); btn.Content = "Calculate";"As you can see, defining the object in XAML considerably simplifies the assignment of these three properties." So, instead of extending the constructor of Button(), they invent an extremely verbose markup language and claims it's shorter. Why not just have:Button btn = new Button("Calculate", Brushes.LightSeaGreen, new FontSize(24, FontSizeType.Point));Or is that just too damn obvious? Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke -
Paul Watson wrote: I think the web is just awesome, for content, for communication. But it bites for applications. Damn, and here I was holding back and being all polite-like to avoid insulting the heavy duty web guys like Paul. Just when you think you know the rules around here... :doh: Chistopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success
hehe. Well I am quite opposed to all the web-app shenanigins. Not something I share with most web devs. One day would be good to have a full blown discussion about it, though the non-web-dev CPians will vote it down terribly as usual. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Miszou wrote: I have read the entire internet. on how boring his day was. Crikey! ain't life grand?
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Soliant wrote: This xaml is good for browser, but not sure for desktop apps. I don't think xaml is any different to the .RC files we used to use before C# came along and started defining all the resources in code. It makes a lot of sense to me to keep the UI as seperate data. It makes internationalization much easier and allows programmers to hand off the UI of the apps to people with design skills. Michael 'Logic, my dear Zoe, merely enables one to be wrong with authority.' - The Doctor: The Wheel in Space
Michael P Butler wrote: don't think xaml is any different to the .RC files... Except it's a lot more verbose. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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>If .NET is the end-all of programming why can't I find a single commercial Microsoft application written in it Isn't Longhorn basically written in .NET? Managed code and all that? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Miszou wrote: I have read the entire internet. on how boring his day was. Crikey! ain't life grand?
Paul Watson wrote: Isn't Longhorn basically written in .NET? Managed code and all that? No. Longhorn describes the next version of Windows. I seriously doubt Microsoft is going to get rid of all their native code. But, who knows, maybe some lunatic will decide to rewrite NTFS in managed code. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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hehe. Well I am quite opposed to all the web-app shenanigins. Not something I share with most web devs. One day would be good to have a full blown discussion about it, though the non-web-dev CPians will vote it down terribly as usual. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Miszou wrote: I have read the entire internet. on how boring his day was. Crikey! ain't life grand?
Yeah, I have mixed emotions. I love the power of a world wide network, but I detest HTTP/HTML as a means of getting there. Kinda like building the Golden Gate Bridge with Legos. Looks groovy, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to drive the Vette on it... Chistopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success
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>If .NET is the end-all of programming why can't I find a single commercial Microsoft application written in it Isn't Longhorn basically written in .NET? Managed code and all that? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Miszou wrote: I have read the entire internet. on how boring his day was. Crikey! ain't life grand?
Paul Watson wrote: Isn't Longhorn basically written in .NET? Managed code and all that? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Chistopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success
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Isn't that picture of the UI about the ugliest thing you've ever seen? It's hideous. It's stupid. It chews up a massive amount of precious vertical space. There isn't a chance in hell anyone in usability actually gave a stamp of approval to this nightmare. XAML is nothing but HTML on steroids and a groovy new buzzword name. This is all about writing ASP and web apps, then trying to shoehorn stand-alone client app development into the same paradigm. (Ironically, if the look and feel was so stupendously great, why didn't Office 2003 incorporate it? If .NET is the end-all of programming why can't I find a single commercial Microsoft application written in it, let alone have the same look?) Microsoft has abandoned the stand-alone application developer. MFC and WTL are not being updated and supported except by lip service. There was a time I could use MFC to create an app that had the same look and feel as Word. That ended three years ago. I don't mind .NET and think even the new crap will be useful in large corporate IT environments. But where is the support for users not involved in this relatively narrow experience? Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote: XAML is nothing but HTML on steroids and a groovy new buzzword name. This is all about writing ASP and web apps, then trying to shoehorn stand-alone client app development into the same paradigm. No, XAML is xml that describes a GUI. And a buzzword. :) Joe Woodbury wrote: If .NET is the end-all of programming why can't I find a single commercial Microsoft application written in it, let alone have the same look?) Because you haven't searched. Parts of VS are managed, I just played around with a P2P file sharing app that was built with C# a few days ago, my company is building a large corporate data organizer in C#. Give it time, .Net will eventually outnumber unmanaged apps - it's a new technology ya know; we've only had a real IDE for about 1.5 years now. :) Joe Woodbury wrote: Microsoft has abandoned the stand-alone application developer. MFC and WTL are not being updated and supported except by lip service. There was a time I could use MFC to create an app that had the same look and feel as Word. That ended three years ago. No, Microsoft has abandoned unmanaged apps running in an insecure environment. C#, VB.Net et al build to standalone executables - it will remain that way. MS is just giving us a no-hassle deployment option via the web, which is a good thing. MFC and WTL are great technologies that have seen their prime. And now it's .Net's turn. This is a similiar situation to when DirectX replaced DOS game development during the early Win95 days. People complained of poorer performance, less control over the system resources, and they tore their clothes, fasted, and covered themselves in ashes, but in the end it was definitely a good thing. :) The graveyards are filled with indispensible men.
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I realize that a lot can change and will in the years before Longhorn hits the streets, but reading this article, A First Look at Writing and Deploying Apps in the Next Generation of Windows[^], paints a rather dim picture of the future for developers in my personal opinion. Clearly, The Future (tm) appears to be a world where everything exists within a browser. Browser based applications are and have always been clumsy at best (to be kind), but when surfing the web we live with this as an acceptable tradeoff for the power we get from the Internet. Http provides a lowest common denominator approach to let the world's various machines all view the same pages. As anyone with any road behind them knows, the lowest common denominator is always the natural enemy of high quality and innovation. And now this lowest common denominator approach wants to invade my desktop and become the defacto (or MS enforced) standard for application development? You've just got to be kidding me. I can see myself now trying to explain to the folks I work for why we should write mission critical air traffic control software in a web browser using dumbed-down markup languages. Is this just Internet trendiness? Or are they trying to dumb down programming so that anyone who can start Front Page is considered a software developer? At the current rate, computer programming and word processing are going to become synonyms. We have incredible horsepower at our disposal with the machines we run today. Instead of a massive effort to reduce programming to the point where any chimpanzee can bang on the keyboard and create a chimpanzee quality app, why can't we push the envelope in the other direction and create ever more powerful technologies to accomplish greater things, along with the tools that let intelligent and capable programmers do their jobs? Let the secretaries do the word processing. Grr. Chistopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success
As Michael has stated in, uh, all of his replies, this isn't quite a "convert your app to html+javascript" nightmare. Let's face it - implementing a complex, solid UI using C + Win32 isn't too difficult... but it's tedious as building a cathedral out of gravel and toothpaste. The .RC dialog definitions haven't been terribly useful since Win 3.0 - quality UIs today adapt to user's screen size and appearance preferences. Who wants to spend the time making an app look good in WinXP regardless of whether the user is using the classic theme or "Super Bubble-Gum Windows"? Of late, i've been using DHTML + MSHTML control to prototype, and even implement major portions of a UI. I can make cosmetic changes quickly and see the results without compiling, it's powerful and flexible in what it allows me to do, and get this - it keeps the UI well separated from the program logic. If it pans out, and i'm able to quickly write UIs that look good with whatever Windows funkiness is coming down the pipe, then great - i can go back to actually spending time making my programs do something.
A servant to formulaic ways.
Shog9
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Paul Watson wrote: Isn't Longhorn basically written in .NET? Managed code and all that? No. Longhorn describes the next version of Windows. I seriously doubt Microsoft is going to get rid of all their native code. But, who knows, maybe some lunatic will decide to rewrite NTFS in managed code. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
So this guy is totally wrong? "...Microsoft made a HUGE bet on .NET with the next version of Windows. How huge! I doubt there are any new traditional Win32 API calls; they are all managed. Like it or not, you will be dragged into .NET; you will have to deal with managed code. Virtually everything in the OS is being rewritten in managed code. The new shell is managed, which I also think will make it easier for developers to extend, who can simply inherit from shell objects..." I am not a low level programmer, never want to be, so am just asking questions here and will probably take your word for it :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Miszou wrote: I have read the entire internet. on how boring his day was. Crikey! ain't life grand?
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Paul Watson wrote: Isn't Longhorn basically written in .NET? Managed code and all that? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Chistopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success
Jeeesh, poke fun at the web developer why don't you. *sniff* ;) I just read it on a link from the Lounge earlier, about it all being rewritten with managed code or some such fluff. I guess it could end up being like .NET in that it is just a fancy wrapper on good old hard low level code. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Miszou wrote: I have read the entire internet. on how boring his day was. Crikey! ain't life grand?
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As Michael has stated in, uh, all of his replies, this isn't quite a "convert your app to html+javascript" nightmare. Let's face it - implementing a complex, solid UI using C + Win32 isn't too difficult... but it's tedious as building a cathedral out of gravel and toothpaste. The .RC dialog definitions haven't been terribly useful since Win 3.0 - quality UIs today adapt to user's screen size and appearance preferences. Who wants to spend the time making an app look good in WinXP regardless of whether the user is using the classic theme or "Super Bubble-Gum Windows"? Of late, i've been using DHTML + MSHTML control to prototype, and even implement major portions of a UI. I can make cosmetic changes quickly and see the results without compiling, it's powerful and flexible in what it allows me to do, and get this - it keeps the UI well separated from the program logic. If it pans out, and i'm able to quickly write UIs that look good with whatever Windows funkiness is coming down the pipe, then great - i can go back to actually spending time making my programs do something.
A servant to formulaic ways.
Shog9
Shog9 wrote: I, for one, welcome our new Sissy UI Overlords :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Shog9 wrote: The .RC dialog definitions haven't been terribly useful since Win 3.0 - quality UIs today adapt to user's screen size and appearance preferences. If they relegated all this browser stuff to the .RC file and left my programming language alone I'd be much fuzzier with it. As has been mentioned earlier, I'm not entirely manageable... Chistopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success
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Jeeesh, poke fun at the web developer why don't you. *sniff* ;) I just read it on a link from the Lounge earlier, about it all being rewritten with managed code or some such fluff. I guess it could end up being like .NET in that it is just a fancy wrapper on good old hard low level code. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Miszou wrote: I have read the entire internet. on how boring his day was. Crikey! ain't life grand?
Paul Watson wrote: Jeeesh, poke fun at the web developer why don't you. *sniff* Oops. My bad. I thought you were being facetious. Had I known you were serious, I would poked fun at you in a much more eloquent manner. :-D Chistopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success
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Shog9 wrote: I, for one, welcome our new Sissy UI Overlords :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Shog9 wrote: The .RC dialog definitions haven't been terribly useful since Win 3.0 - quality UIs today adapt to user's screen size and appearance preferences. If they relegated all this browser stuff to the .RC file and left my programming language alone I'd be much fuzzier with it. As has been mentioned earlier, I'm not entirely manageable... Chistopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success
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Joe Woodbury wrote: XAML is nothing but HTML on steroids and a groovy new buzzword name. This is all about writing ASP and web apps, then trying to shoehorn stand-alone client app development into the same paradigm. No, XAML is xml that describes a GUI. And a buzzword. :) Joe Woodbury wrote: If .NET is the end-all of programming why can't I find a single commercial Microsoft application written in it, let alone have the same look?) Because you haven't searched. Parts of VS are managed, I just played around with a P2P file sharing app that was built with C# a few days ago, my company is building a large corporate data organizer in C#. Give it time, .Net will eventually outnumber unmanaged apps - it's a new technology ya know; we've only had a real IDE for about 1.5 years now. :) Joe Woodbury wrote: Microsoft has abandoned the stand-alone application developer. MFC and WTL are not being updated and supported except by lip service. There was a time I could use MFC to create an app that had the same look and feel as Word. That ended three years ago. No, Microsoft has abandoned unmanaged apps running in an insecure environment. C#, VB.Net et al build to standalone executables - it will remain that way. MS is just giving us a no-hassle deployment option via the web, which is a good thing. MFC and WTL are great technologies that have seen their prime. And now it's .Net's turn. This is a similiar situation to when DirectX replaced DOS game development during the early Win95 days. People complained of poorer performance, less control over the system resources, and they tore their clothes, fasted, and covered themselves in ashes, but in the end it was definitely a good thing. :) The graveyards are filled with indispensible men.
Judah H. wrote: Because you haven't searched. Ah, but I have and I still can't find any. Parts of VS does not an application make. Judah H. wrote: MS is just giving us a no-hassle deployment option via the web.. . :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: Judah H. wrote: C#, VB.Net et al build to standalone executables That, they don't do. They build scripts that are interpretted by the .NET engine. The problem with .NET is that it's half baked. It's missing huge chunks of logic to write an acceptable stand-alone application. The ultimate question is; Are you spending more time fighting it or working with it to get what you want? (note the "you". Not what some graphics designer at Microsoft deemed to be significant. When, not if, my users say "I want the app to do this else I won't upgrade.", me replying "But this is the FUTURE!" doesn't work.) .NET is extremely web centric and I've read nothing in the last few days to indicate WinFX is any different. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Paul Watson wrote: But for Photoshop? For an IDE? Why can't the Photoshop or VS.NET IDE user-interface be described in XML? As long as the rendering engine isn't limited by the control types it supports. Using XML defined u/i with C# assemblies plugged in to give the flexibilty that we programmers need, I don't see why it can't work. Lets face it, VB programmers have been writing their apps this way for ever. A VB form is just a text file describing the position, size and colour of controls with ActiveX providing the plugin support for new and different controls. If this kind of functionality is available straight out of the Windows box, but with the full spectrum of the .NET framework and languages. I don't see why this is going to be a bad thing at all. It's what I've been trying to write for the past few weeks on Win32, because for the vast majority of business data applications it is the way forward. Michael 'Logic, my dear Zoe, merely enables one to be wrong with authority.' - The Doctor: The Wheel in Space
Lets face it, VB programmers have been writing their apps this way for ever. A VB form is just a text file describing the position, size and colour of controls with ActiveX providing the plugin support for new and different controls. And could you please refference me to any commercial strength product written by MSFT/others that has Phoshop/IDE power and complitely written in VB???... "...Ability to type is not enough to become a Programmer. Unless you type in VB. But then again you have to type really fast..." Me
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So this guy is totally wrong? "...Microsoft made a HUGE bet on .NET with the next version of Windows. How huge! I doubt there are any new traditional Win32 API calls; they are all managed. Like it or not, you will be dragged into .NET; you will have to deal with managed code. Virtually everything in the OS is being rewritten in managed code. The new shell is managed, which I also think will make it easier for developers to extend, who can simply inherit from shell objects..." I am not a low level programmer, never want to be, so am just asking questions here and will probably take your word for it :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Miszou wrote: I have read the entire internet. on how boring his day was. Crikey! ain't life grand?
Paul Watson wrote: So this guy is totally wrong? Just extremely naive. Somewhere .NET has to make actual calls to a native API. Microsoft is a lot of things, but resource stupid they aren't. They aren't going to rewrite "virtually everything in the OS." They don't have time and what's the point? (And, I know this hard for some people to understand, the shell isn't the OS.) Microsoft has always been intent on supporting backward compatibility. Ergo, Win32 as of XP at least will very much still exist. Developers WON'T "have to deal with managed code" (it may be there and do things whether you like it or not, but you won't have to "deal" with it.) (Plus, this is at odds of other statements MS has made to the effect that if you aren't using managed code, that's okay, you can get to this functionality through COM objects.) Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Paul Watson wrote: So this guy is totally wrong? Just extremely naive. Somewhere .NET has to make actual calls to a native API. Microsoft is a lot of things, but resource stupid they aren't. They aren't going to rewrite "virtually everything in the OS." They don't have time and what's the point? (And, I know this hard for some people to understand, the shell isn't the OS.) Microsoft has always been intent on supporting backward compatibility. Ergo, Win32 as of XP at least will very much still exist. Developers WON'T "have to deal with managed code" (it may be there and do things whether you like it or not, but you won't have to "deal" with it.) (Plus, this is at odds of other statements MS has made to the effect that if you aren't using managed code, that's okay, you can get to this functionality through COM objects.) Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Cool, thanks for the explanation Joe, appreciate it. Someday I may have to do more windows app dev than I do now and it is good to at least keep tabs on what is going on. Back to my web-dev sandpit I go. :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Miszou wrote: I have read the entire internet. on how boring his day was. Crikey! ain't life grand?
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Christopher Duncan wrote: The Future (tm) appears to be a world where everything exists within a browser. No - now instead of forcing users to download software, go through an install, reboot the computer, then start our standalone .exe, we have the option to deploy through a browser. Believe it or not, more software is distributed through the net than sold off the shelf on CD-ROM. All I can say is, it's about friggen time. I've been experimenting with HREF'd .exe inside IE and it's still very akward to do. Giving developers a real option of deploying apps through the web is godsend to me. Christopher Duncan wrote: Is this just Internet trendiness? Or are they trying to dumb down programming so that anyone who can start Front Page is considered a software developer? At the current rate, computer programming and word processing are going to become synonyms. Wrong - nothing replaces sound development planning and implementation. Your argument is nothing new though; I remember hearing these same cries when VB started becoming popular. Christopher Duncan wrote: We have incredible horsepower at our disposal with the machines we run today. Instead of a massive effort to reduce programming to the point where any chimpanzee can bang on the keyboard and create a chimpanzee quality app, why can't we push the envelope in the other direction and create ever more powerful technologies to accomplish greater things, along with the tools that let intelligent and capable programmers do their jobs? Quality chimpanzee apps will never be quality apps. Why create simpler technologies? Because simpler is better! Don't like simple? Go develope a COM app in pure C. Enjoy, see ya around in 5 years, masochist. Windows development is getting easier and faster because Microsoft learned a lesson with Java: the gem that people prefer to do things the easier way. To say, "Back in my day we did things the real, tough way, real quality and real men yahda yahda" makes you sound like an old WWII vet cranking on about how things were better "back in the day." To our fortune, .Net and rapid application development is here to stay. Hop on or learn Unix. The graveyards are filled with indispensible men.
Judah H. wrote: To our fortune, .Net and rapid application development is here to stay. Hop on or learn Unix. My love hate relationship with linux/unix is what drove me to .NET :) Jared jparsons@jparsons.org www.prism.gatech.edu/~gte477n