Antrax: Maybe someone will be pissed off becoase of this post, but...
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What is happening now with terrorism, US have acchived in years long interference into other country internal affairs. What do you think, how much pressure is needed to make someone so angry (hopeless?), that he is willing to give his life just to hurt you (oh yeah i know, he is born for terrorist)? Instead of looking for guilt in other countrys like Afghanistan, start to look for an answer in your foreign politic. Dont understand this that i agree with terrorists methods (i am sorry for people that died in WTC :rose:), but what USA is doing around the globe for last 40 years is far worse than what they terrorists did (Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, Yugoslavia, Irak; do remember that song "It is all about money"?)! And concerning attacks in Afghanistan; i hardly belive USA gov. will achive anything good for you with bombardment. It would be better to give Afghanistan humanitarian help for money that USA is now throwing on Afg. in form of bombs (...) as it will only make people more poor and more extremists/terrorists will be born from that. Btw i live in Europe, i do not pray Alah, i just think with my own head ;)
I have my own opinions about this very messy subject. 1) People have been killing each other long before the first "ape" earned the right to be called human. 2) No matter which religion is involved, there's always frases in the holy book that can be used as an argument to kill the "infidel". 3) If the USA (and any other powers throughout time: Egyptian, Greek and Roman empires, England, Spain, Germany, China, USSR, etc.) is neutral in foreign affairs you'll find "nice little conflicts" like WWI and WWII, and the likes throughout history. And, BTW, your allies will consider you an enemy after you leave them to their own devices. 4) If the USA (and any other powers throughout time: Egyptian, Greek and Roman empires, England, Spain, Germany, China, USSR, etc.) actively participates in foreign affairs you'll find "nice little conflicts" like Vietnam, Korea, Yugoslavia, Iraq, and the likes throughout history. And, BTW, your allies will consider you an enemy for not leaving them to their own devices. 5) Every major conflict in history has been triggered by someones quest for power. Mention religion, race, oil, etc. Whatever the excuse is, the real force behind it is the quest for power. For the sake of argument, just imagine that the "western world" withdrew their forces (and I mean their whole presence: military, diplomatic, economic and humanitarian) from the region. What whould happen to these countries? Would they be better? I really doubt so. Is Iran better since the Shah left power and was replaced by the Ayatollahs? Absolutly not. Is Saddam Hussien a benevolent ruler that is good for "his" people? No, he actually tried to exterminate several ethnic groups that he considers enemies. And they are as muslim as he says he is. Is Saddam safe for the surrounding countries? No. Ask Kuwait and who was suppossed to be invaded next: Saudi Arabia, Ossama Bin Laden's beloved holy land. I don't mean to ridicule it's status of holy land for Muslims, I mean to ironize on Bin Laden's views who says that what happens in Saudi Arabia is not USA's business, but what happens in Palestine is HIS business, despite that he's an Arab that lives in Afganistan and was there fighting a war that wasn't his business either! So, who is right and who is wrong? Nobody and everybody! So they have the right to attack us for our "sins"? So be it. We'll attack them for their "sins". And at the end there wont be a soul left to attack: not a christian, not a muslim, not a jew, nobody. And that's the irony of it all. We're an enda
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Well Tim, I'm not sure if you've notice? But I've been thinking with your head for the last week or so. Decided mine needed a rest for a while. ;P Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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> I do not pray Alah, i just think with my own head Okay, Somebody kills your dearest loved ones. You know where they live, but the people who they live with won't hand them over. What do you do? Do you just say fair enough and forget about it. In the years leading up to the second world war, countries tried the appeasement route with Hitler and look what happened. But when all said and done, humans are animals. Violent and selfish animals, there is no morality, we do what we have to do to survive. We've been killing each other since Cain and Able (Allegedly, I'm not a fan of The Book). This is all down to self preservation, Western civilization is trying to protect itself from a threat. Bin Laden and his mates are trying to do the same for their beliefs. It's happened throughout history and will continue to happen for a long time to come. Michael :-)
According to a former American ambassador in one of the middle-east countries (on CNN crossfire two or three days ago), there is no proof that Bin Laden did it. All the government has is 21 pages of "allegations" (his exact word). The US probably won't hand-over any alleged criminal (even to another western country) based on the same type of "evidence".
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What is happening now with terrorism, US have acchived in years long interference into other country internal affairs. What do you think, how much pressure is needed to make someone so angry (hopeless?), that he is willing to give his life just to hurt you (oh yeah i know, he is born for terrorist)? Instead of looking for guilt in other countrys like Afghanistan, start to look for an answer in your foreign politic. Dont understand this that i agree with terrorists methods (i am sorry for people that died in WTC :rose:), but what USA is doing around the globe for last 40 years is far worse than what they terrorists did (Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, Yugoslavia, Irak; do remember that song "It is all about money"?)! And concerning attacks in Afghanistan; i hardly belive USA gov. will achive anything good for you with bombardment. It would be better to give Afghanistan humanitarian help for money that USA is now throwing on Afg. in form of bombs (...) as it will only make people more poor and more extremists/terrorists will be born from that. Btw i live in Europe, i do not pray Alah, i just think with my own head ;)
What is happening now with terrorism, US have acchived in years long interference into other country internal affairs. Yeah right! Exactly how did we interfere in Saudi Arabia's internal affairs to get Osama so pissed off? Perhaps it was all the money we sent that made him a multimillionaire at age 13. How oppressed can you get? Also, look at how the Taliban treats Afghan women when the U.S. is not interfering in their affairs. This is not a shining example of why the U.S. should not interfere. Rather, the U.S. is often too slow to interfere, as when we sat on our asses and let 500,000 people be murdered in Rwanda, and when both Clinton and Bush did nothing about the Taliban oppression of women for the last 5 years. Of course the Taliban would not be in power in Afghanistan if not for Bill Clinton's support of their bid for power in 1996. And Osama would not have a terrorist following if Ronald Reagan had not sponsored his bid to become a terrorist leader in the mid 1980s. Far from oppressing these people, the U.S. has given them money, arms, and comfort for decades. One can argue that the U.S. is foolish to keep on arming our enemies (in May, George Bush sent about 60 million dollars to the Taliban to support their war on drugs, and we continue to sell arms to Saudi Arabia despite the fact that they obsinately refuse to extradict 12 Hizballah terrorists to the U.S. to face trial for killing U.S. servicemen with a truck bomb), but one can hardly claim that the Taliban or bin Laden has any cause for complaint that they suffered from U.S. interference. Bombing Afghanistan is hardly likely to be effective against terrorism, but you've got to come up with substantial arguments. If you want to see an intelligent refutation of this kind of "the U.S. was asking for it" kind of rhetoric, read Christopher Hitchens's columns, "Against Rationalization," and "Of Sin, the Left, and Islamic Fascism" in The Nation.
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So the question is 'why is America stationed in the Middle East?' and 'what would happen if they withdrew?' I've only got a sketchy understanding of the first, and no idea of the second. Maybe by withdrawing and letting the Islamic nations deal with their neighbours things could be settled more amicably. Maybe the nations surrounding Afghanistan or Iraq or whoever wouldn't try to settle things down and with no dampening rods things would get even more crazy. I do agree with you that no matter how justified the reprisals are, the thought of having a foreign power bomb your own soil is bound to be annoying. Add to that the incredible anti-Western propoganda ('The Americans want to destroy Islam') and also the total lack of a decent future that many in that area have, and it's a recipe for a very bitter and very angry group of people who have nothing to do and nothing to live for and a lot of sour resentment (at their own state of affairs, that of their country and 'leaders', and at the frightening and totally demoralising attacks on their homeland). These guys have wars in the same way Canadians play hockey. The have long memories, are proud, and probably also very scared and very determined. If we could only sit down with every single person in that area of the world and say 'We don't want to hurt you! We just want to help you get your country back on it's feet, stop a man from endangering world peace, give you freedom, and let you practice your life and religion in peace and security. BTW, have some food' and if we all sat down and had them explain what they are thinking and feeling, then things would cool down pretty quickly. Violence begets violence. As Gandhi said, "An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind". cheers, Chris Maunder (CodeProject)
America is stationed in the Middle East for 3 reasons. Oil, money, and Israel. If America withdrew, I think that OPEC would raise the price of oil thereby giving some Saudi terrorist backers more money to fund terrorism with and Palistine and Israel would go to even more of a war than they are already in (perhaps 'more overt war' is a better term). I humbly submit that if someone came into your house took a butcher knife out of your hand and killed your wife with it, that when you carried out your reprisal on him (no matter how ANNOYING to him) it would still not bring your wife back, but it would keep him from killing the rest of your family. Unlike the Canadians, these terrorists can not be calmed down with some food and good beer. These people eat, drink, and sleep pleasing and serving Alah. And they believe that Alah means for them to rid the world of the infidels(Jews, and you and me). Please don't go to Afghanistan to try and sit down with these terrorists and talk about world peace. You are too valuable to us and would be much better served by posting your plea here. You would also probably get a better reception and more of a reply. Cheers, Ed Evans (Stupid American) Ed Evans
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I have my own opinions about this very messy subject. 1) People have been killing each other long before the first "ape" earned the right to be called human. 2) No matter which religion is involved, there's always frases in the holy book that can be used as an argument to kill the "infidel". 3) If the USA (and any other powers throughout time: Egyptian, Greek and Roman empires, England, Spain, Germany, China, USSR, etc.) is neutral in foreign affairs you'll find "nice little conflicts" like WWI and WWII, and the likes throughout history. And, BTW, your allies will consider you an enemy after you leave them to their own devices. 4) If the USA (and any other powers throughout time: Egyptian, Greek and Roman empires, England, Spain, Germany, China, USSR, etc.) actively participates in foreign affairs you'll find "nice little conflicts" like Vietnam, Korea, Yugoslavia, Iraq, and the likes throughout history. And, BTW, your allies will consider you an enemy for not leaving them to their own devices. 5) Every major conflict in history has been triggered by someones quest for power. Mention religion, race, oil, etc. Whatever the excuse is, the real force behind it is the quest for power. For the sake of argument, just imagine that the "western world" withdrew their forces (and I mean their whole presence: military, diplomatic, economic and humanitarian) from the region. What whould happen to these countries? Would they be better? I really doubt so. Is Iran better since the Shah left power and was replaced by the Ayatollahs? Absolutly not. Is Saddam Hussien a benevolent ruler that is good for "his" people? No, he actually tried to exterminate several ethnic groups that he considers enemies. And they are as muslim as he says he is. Is Saddam safe for the surrounding countries? No. Ask Kuwait and who was suppossed to be invaded next: Saudi Arabia, Ossama Bin Laden's beloved holy land. I don't mean to ridicule it's status of holy land for Muslims, I mean to ironize on Bin Laden's views who says that what happens in Saudi Arabia is not USA's business, but what happens in Palestine is HIS business, despite that he's an Arab that lives in Afganistan and was there fighting a war that wasn't his business either! So, who is right and who is wrong? Nobody and everybody! So they have the right to attack us for our "sins"? So be it. We'll attack them for their "sins". And at the end there wont be a soul left to attack: not a christian, not a muslim, not a jew, nobody. And that's the irony of it all. We're an enda
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According to a former American ambassador in one of the middle-east countries (on CNN crossfire two or three days ago), there is no proof that Bin Laden did it. All the government has is 21 pages of "allegations" (his exact word). The US probably won't hand-over any alleged criminal (even to another western country) based on the same type of "evidence".
Last felon I arrested, I only could say I only had allegations too, however since the allegations were true, he is now in prison. Don't let some dope ambassador who's last job was driving the governor determine the truth. The money trail is clear. The wire taps are good. I'm no Sherlock, but I this is going to end up pointing places we don't want it pointing too.
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Last felon I arrested, I only could say I only had allegations too, however since the allegations were true, he is now in prison. Don't let some dope ambassador who's last job was driving the governor determine the truth. The money trail is clear. The wire taps are good. I'm no Sherlock, but I this is going to end up pointing places we don't want it pointing too.
Ok, there is a thing called the international law. Our government could at least show Taliban the evidence it has collected before starting the war. Actually, I have no problem if US is sending some CIA agents to kill or capture Bin Laden and his associates, but starting a war? That's too much, don't you think? I am just worried other people will follow our example, and there will never be peace again (the terrorists win in the end).
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Ok, there is a thing called the international law. Our government could at least show Taliban the evidence it has collected before starting the war. Actually, I have no problem if US is sending some CIA agents to kill or capture Bin Laden and his associates, but starting a war? That's too much, don't you think? I am just worried other people will follow our example, and there will never be peace again (the terrorists win in the end).
>Actually, I have no problem if US is sending some CIA agents to kill or capture Bin Laden and his >associates, but starting a war? That's too much, don't you think? This isn't a war. The US is flexing its muscle. If you look at all the hardware and ships that they sent, they are basically saying come and have a go if you think you're hard enough. The Taliban have nothing to fight with, they can't fight the might of the US. We know it, they know it. The best they can hope for is that the Allied Coalliation breaks down if the fighting is prolonged, but the Americans are being very careful. >I am just worried other people will follow our example, and there will never be peace again (the >terrorists win in the end). Depending on how you define peace, there hasn't been peace in this world for a long time. It's only now that peoples eyes are open to what is going on around them. The IRA have been fighting the Brits for 25+ years. There is always a war going on in Africa. The Afghans have been fighting amongst themselves since the Russians left. The Basques in Spain, The Balkans. There are many conflicts going on. It's just that most people don't really care until it starts to affect them. If Bin Laden and the Taliban were smart, they'd have waited before attacking US soil. They should have built up support amongst other Islamic countries first. Michael :-)
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What is happening now with terrorism, US have acchived in years long interference into other country internal affairs. What do you think, how much pressure is needed to make someone so angry (hopeless?), that he is willing to give his life just to hurt you (oh yeah i know, he is born for terrorist)? Instead of looking for guilt in other countrys like Afghanistan, start to look for an answer in your foreign politic. Dont understand this that i agree with terrorists methods (i am sorry for people that died in WTC :rose:), but what USA is doing around the globe for last 40 years is far worse than what they terrorists did (Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, Yugoslavia, Irak; do remember that song "It is all about money"?)! And concerning attacks in Afghanistan; i hardly belive USA gov. will achive anything good for you with bombardment. It would be better to give Afghanistan humanitarian help for money that USA is now throwing on Afg. in form of bombs (...) as it will only make people more poor and more extremists/terrorists will be born from that. Btw i live in Europe, i do not pray Alah, i just think with my own head ;)
And concerning attacks in Afghanistan; i hardly belive USA gov. will achive anything good for you with bombardment. It would be better to give Afghanistan humanitarian help for money that USA is now throwing on Afg. This is just plain dumb. Taliban backs and hides a guy who kills 5,000 innocent Americans, your solution is to send aid so the Taliban can confiscate it and keep it from the people in need ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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I simply don't have the energy to argue beyond stating the obvious - you're a moron. To hell with those thin-skinned pillow-biters. - Me, 10/03/2001
I'm really disappointed - I was counting on you to put this clown in his place. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Ok, there is a thing called the international law. Our government could at least show Taliban the evidence it has collected before starting the war. Actually, I have no problem if US is sending some CIA agents to kill or capture Bin Laden and his associates, but starting a war? That's too much, don't you think? I am just worried other people will follow our example, and there will never be peace again (the terrorists win in the end).
>there is a thing called the international law If there was really international law, there would be an enforcer. The closest thing to that would be the US. Now, how many cops walk around and let people smash them in the face and go quietly along singing 'kum ba ya'? I didn't when I was on the street! I may be wrong, but I don't think there was ever a time on earth when there was real peace, and I don't think there ever will be. Now we could all squab about the definition of peace, war and is is however I think it's clear that a war is starting. Whether we want to say that the US caused it by being on muslim holy ground in '98 or that the US was ambushed by terrorists on Sept 11...I don't really care and an apology doesn't cut it. I believe this has to fought. We have to end terrorism. They used to be called pirates long ago. The Dutch and British stopped them. They are from a different land with different means today, but they must be stopped. ex-DPD
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... BTW, have some food ... I reckon some Vegemite could do some good here. ;P Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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>there is a thing called the international law If there was really international law, there would be an enforcer. The closest thing to that would be the US. Now, how many cops walk around and let people smash them in the face and go quietly along singing 'kum ba ya'? I didn't when I was on the street! I may be wrong, but I don't think there was ever a time on earth when there was real peace, and I don't think there ever will be. Now we could all squab about the definition of peace, war and is is however I think it's clear that a war is starting. Whether we want to say that the US caused it by being on muslim holy ground in '98 or that the US was ambushed by terrorists on Sept 11...I don't really care and an apology doesn't cut it. I believe this has to fought. We have to end terrorism. They used to be called pirates long ago. The Dutch and British stopped them. They are from a different land with different means today, but they must be stopped. ex-DPD
The question is, do we want to do the right thing or do we just want to do the thing that makes us feel good? I remember the O.J.Simpson trial a few years ago. There evidence that he brutally killed his wife was much more compelling than the evidence that Bin Laden did the WTC act. But nobody was trying to kill O.J. How come it is different when people from another country are involved? Our constitution says "all men are created equal", it doesn't say "only Americans are created equal". Now imaging that you are from Afghanistan. Your country and your people were screwed by the Soviets for over 10 years, you don't have enough to eat. Now Uncle Sam wants to drop bombs on you because some suspected foreign terrorists live in your country. Supposed the rest of your family are killed or starved to death as a result, what are the chances that you are not going to become a terrorist?
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The question is, do we want to do the right thing or do we just want to do the thing that makes us feel good? I remember the O.J.Simpson trial a few years ago. There evidence that he brutally killed his wife was much more compelling than the evidence that Bin Laden did the WTC act. But nobody was trying to kill O.J. How come it is different when people from another country are involved? Our constitution says "all men are created equal", it doesn't say "only Americans are created equal". Now imaging that you are from Afghanistan. Your country and your people were screwed by the Soviets for over 10 years, you don't have enough to eat. Now Uncle Sam wants to drop bombs on you because some suspected foreign terrorists live in your country. Supposed the rest of your family are killed or starved to death as a result, what are the chances that you are not going to become a terrorist?
I dispute your premise. O.J. is a major catachresis. The question isn't "do we want to do the right thing or do we just want to do the thing that makes us feel good." Who says nobody was trying to kill O.J.? If the death penalty was available, he would have gotten it...but I won't go there!!! ;P Our constitution applies to Americans, otherwise the freedom of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness would have applied to those who were killed in the WTC by terrorists. You didn't see those freedoms extended by the terrorist last month. Are you implying that terrorism only started post Russian/Afgan war? :eek: How old are you??? If I were an Afgan, I would mind my own biz and go eat the free food dropped from sky. So...Do you think if we just sit back and let them have whatever they want (your head included here) that they will stop being terrorists? Let's say that all the Jews were somehow moved out of the middle east and they took control of the entire region. What would happen next? Are you going to tell me world wide peace would ensue? Shake off the torpor!! These are terrorist, not driven by hunger, not driven by the Russian wars.