Bizarre experience

[Atlantys]

I've been so trained to clean up after myself in those places. When I have lunch at Tim Hortons (donut/coffee/nice lunch place), I try to find the garbage place with "Thank You" on it, but there isn't one! :wtf:. So I leave my tray on my table, and feel very bad about it. Seriously, I do. So, look at me! I'm a :baaaa!: The kindest thing you can do for a stupid person, and for the gene pool, is to let him expire of his own dumb choices. [Roger Wright on stupid people] We're like private member functions [John Theal on R&D] We're figuring out the parent thing as we go though. Kinda like setting up Linux for the first time ya' know... [Nitron]

[Rick York]

I agree - very nice forum. I totally despise the forum SW here. The company is nice though. :) The Ten Commandments For C Programmers

[Paul Watson]

Holy low-fat tomato, I just realised you wrote that. While I completely disagree with the store owners attitude, I do normally clean up even after a meal (conditions apply) at Burger King or McDonalds. I just dislike leaving behind a dirty counter, something that is normally handled before I leave at a restaurant or that I do myself at home or as a guest. As for "Thank You", I take it in good spirit (whether it is or not). If the manager was standing by the rubbish bin and I dumped my cartons in it and he said thank you rather than relying on the embossed lid, I would think well (even if he has an MBA). But your chap has lost touch with reality. Worse, many people would have turned, _sheep_ishly gone back to their table and thrown the cartons away feeling duly righted. It is tough because the opposite extreme is being a jerk about it and acting like you own the place. Some good judgement is probably best. If the place is busy and someone is waiting for your table and no cleaner is on hand, take your stuff and chuck it away. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: "Cynicism has it's place in life - but it should be kept well away from your inner self." Crikey! ain't life grand?

[Paul Watson]

I just want to say that tipping is not wrong. Mandatory or expected tipping is. Being peer pressured into tipping is wrong. But tipping based on good service is not wrong. Most restaurant waiters don't get a flat fee, or at least the flat fee they get is a token gesture by the restuarant. You are not paying their salary with your meal. Your tips are what they survive on. And yes I have waitered. Naturally this does not apply to fast food joints as there you do pay for the service as part of your meal. You sacrifice quality for speed. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: "Cynicism has it's place in life - but it should be kept well away from your inner self." Crikey! ain't life grand?

[David Wulff]

Paul Watson wrote: I just want to say that tipping is not wrong. Mandatory or expected tipping is. Being peer pressured into tipping is wrong. But tipping based on good service is not wrong. My sentiments exactly.

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David Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum

Putting the laughter back into slaughter

[peterchen]

In general I don't think it's asked to much of you to take your tray to where it's collected. As my sister (working at checkin) tends to describe a certain type of customer: they paid for a flight, not the plane. Sure you could go the all-about-money route and say "I don't like it I don't spend my dollars there". What's the problem? is it below your dignity? Are you displeased that "collecting trays at a seedy restaurant" doesn't pay enough to attract someone willing to do it? Are you not willing to pay an extra buck for cleanup? Mad at someone who is just optimizing his balance? Or was it just the owners freak out?

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"Vierteile den, der sie Hure schimpft mit einem türkischen Säbel."
mlog || Agile Programming | doxygen

[Tim Craig]

Christopher Duncan wrote: Our perspectives probably differ because I have over a decade of making a living in sales and marketing, and as a result am more aware of the kind of manipulation that goes on each day in the business world. Ah, that explains rude arrogance. At any given instant there are considerably more assholes than mouths in the universe.

[Christopher Duncan]

Tim Craig wrote: Ah, that explains rude arrogance. No, I was born that way. 10 years of marketing just taught me how to pay the rent with it. :-) Tim Craig wrote: At any given instant there are considerably more assholes than mouths in the universe. :laugh: Actually, I always thought there was a one to one ratio in that regard... Chistopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success RSS feed - News & notifications

[Christopher Duncan]

You voiced a number of reasonable questions, so I'll take a look at them individually. peterchen wrote: What's the problem? is it below your dignity? No, I've scrubbed toilets for a living and whistled a merry little tune while I did so. What I object to is being manipulated and taken advantage of. peterchen wrote: Are you displeased that "collecting trays at a seedy restaurant" doesn't pay enough to attract someone willing to do it? Actually, there used to be a lot of those jobs. They were eliminated once companies realized that with a little training, their customers were stupid enough to do it for free. peterchen wrote: Are you not willing to pay an extra buck for cleanup? That option hasn't been presented. peterchen wrote: Mad at someone who is just optimizing his balance? "Optimizing his balance" is an interesting way of describing someone with an aggressive and abusive attitude. In general, I object to the training and manipulation of the consumer. It goes on in many other ways, this is just one example. The prevalent attitude, however, is often, "The customer is stupid - let's see how much we can get away with." I've seen this both from the inside and the outside. Hence my unwillingness to just "go quietly." Chistopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success RSS feed - News & notifications

[Christopher Duncan]

Paul Watson wrote: Holy low-fat tomato, I just realised you wrote that. With such an outrageous situation, who else could it have happened to? :rolleyes: Paul Watson wrote: I do normally clean up even after a meal (conditions apply) at Burger King or McDonalds. Well, (and I'm not making fun of you), you're a lot younger than I am and I'm reasonably sure you can't remember it being any other way. I can, both from the employee and customer perspectives. Paul Watson wrote: It is tough because the opposite extreme is being a jerk about it and acting like you own the place. I don't really feel like that was my reaction - I simply refused to do what employees are paid to do. In fact, I was quietly on my way to the door when he started harrassing me. Paul Watson wrote: If the place is busy and someone is waiting for your table and no cleaner is on hand, take your stuff and chuck it away. Never. Why? Because... (see next entry) Paul Watson wrote: I just dislike leaving behind a dirty counter, something that is normally handled before I leave at a restaurant or that I do myself at home or as a guest. I was not at my home or a guest. As you may recall from the article, I'm the first to clear the table and try to help in the kitchen when I'm visiting friends, because they've offered me hospitality. When a restaurant offers me my meal for free, I'll consider it. Otherwise, I paid for food, not for an internship as a bus boy. Paul Watson wrote: Worse, many people would have turned, sheepishly gone back to their table and thrown the cartons away Which is why I made noise about this issue in the first place. Most people take a lot of crap that they don't have coming. Every now and then, someone needs to take a stand. As an idealist, I'm thinking you can appreciate it at least from this perspective. Chistopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success RSS feed - News & notifications

[Christopher Duncan]

Atlantys wrote: So, look at me! I'm a :baaaa!: At least you're a :baaaa!: with a sense of humor! :-D Chistopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success RSS feed - News & notifications

[Matt Newman]

Christopher Duncan wrote: You should join a band. That way you don't have to pay for the sex and drugs, and you get paid for the rock & roll. Well, I know someone in band, and he has to pay for his..., oh wait you meant like a garage band :) Matt Newman
I am the anti-linux "If you're Master Chief and you're facing the Flood, grab a shotgun and save the last checkpoint" - Me, cause I was bored

[Daniel Turini]

That's why I don't do it anymore. Things of the past, when I was more stupid... :) Trying to make bits uncopyable is like trying to make water not wet. -- Bruce Schneier By the way, dog_spawn isn't a nickname - it is my name with an underscore instead of a space. -- dog_spawn

[peterchen]

You were writing more about the "business decision" than his weird behavior - and that's what I meant with "optimizing his balance". Yes that's an euphemism. maybe there's a cultural difference: I don't expect someone to clean up behind me at a snack/fast food place. An I've seen people tend to become at least careless, if not "proactively messy" when they know it's someone's job to clean up after them. So from this point I see no problem in having people take their tray to the collecting cart. You still need one to clean the tables now and then. The capitalist answer of course would be to go to a place where they do collect the trays, and pay the additional 50cent (or whatever).

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"Vierteile den, der sie Hure schimpft mit einem türkischen Säbel."
mlog || Agile Programming | doxygen

[Christopher Duncan]

peterchen wrote: The capitalist answer That's me! :-D Chistopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success RSS feed - News & notifications

[Jeff Varszegi]

Nobody but you will ever see this, I'm sure, but I was just curious to hear your reaction. What if you're at Yellowstone, and you take a break along a trail. There's a hot dog stand, and you're hungry, so you buy a plate of food. There's a big line, so you have to walk a little way off to eat. Next to the stand is a big wastebasket with the words "Thank you" emblazoned across the front, impossible to miss. Do you 1. despoil a natural treasure, 2. force your way to the front of the line to deposit your trash on the counter just to make a point, 3. carry the trash with you, to avoid bending to the will of the hot dog cart owner, or 4. throw the trash in the wastebasket? I would throw the trash in the basket without a second thought. What would you do at an old-style Automat, with no one around? My point is that it's sometimes expected behavior to clean up after yourself at a cheap place. I think that most people throw out their food because it's accepted practice in society to clean up after yourself when you're not eating at a nice restaurant. I was a little harsh in my last post; I do understand your point, and I agree that it's important to resist when someone takes advantage of you, even in a small way. I agree, too, that we're conditioned to bend to the will of big money in this country. I just disagree about this particular point. McDonald's, for instance, consistently makes only a few percentage points of profit when they're making money; I believe they've lost some money in recent years. Such small things could be the difference between making and breaking a company. A small mom-and-pop place that serves your food on a tray is no different, either; they deserve your scorn as much as a sub shop that's owned by a chain. Regards, Jeff Varszegi

[Christopher Duncan]

At Yellowstone, what I'm paying for is the opportunity to take in a natural treasure, not a meal out. The hot dog is incidental. The thrust of my point was that the consumer is being manipulated (and worse still, by translating their good nature into a naive vulnerability to be exploited), to which I object. Often, you'll also see tip jars next to the cash register in self serve establishments where they don't even bring the food to your table. Do you put money in them? If so, what is your basis for the tip? It's no different than handing out your money to strangers on the streets. People are expecting something for nothing. I, the consumer, have no sense of responsibility for the profitability of a company I patronize. If they're not doing well in the P&L, let them try an old fashioned approach: better products and service than the competition. Otherwise, let them go out of business and the next generation learn from their mistakes. Americans have a sense of entitlement, that they should receive something for nothing because they somehow deserve it. This attitude is making its way into companies as well. (Yes, I'm an American.) It's clear to me that you're a man with solid ideals, ethics, and a good heart. I respect that a great deal. Unfortunately, that makes you a prime target for manipulation. All I have to do to bend such a class of people to my will, were I a corporation, is twist and present things in such a manner that you feel morally obligated to do my work for me. You'll not only happily do so, but lambast others for resisting. Failing that, I'll just wait a few years until the memory of quality products and service fades, and you believe that the way things are now is the way they should be, simply because you can remember no other way. For the record, I do realize that it's never a popular thing to point out to people that they're being had... Chistopher Duncan The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success RSS feed - News & notifications

[Atlantys]

I was in McDonald's a few days ago (ok, chastise me all you want for eating there: I was hungry, the food was cheap, let's move on :-D ), and the guy in front of me ordered some burger meal and an apple pie. They give him the apple pie and burger first, and then go off to get the fries and drink, etc. He quickly eats the apple pie and burger and leaves the garbage on the counter. Now, when they come back with the rest of his meal, there's a burger wrapper and an apple pie wrapper just lying there on the counter. He grabs the drink and fries and takes off. And I'm stuck with his garbage on the counter where they're gonna put my tray. So, my question is: what's your opinion on this? You stated earlier that the customer shouldn't have to be told to clean up after themselves, and be allowed to just leave their tray and garbage behind, but this guy ate at the counter and just left his garbage there when done. I figure he should have least cleaned up after himself, but I'm a good little sheep. :-D The kindest thing you can do for a stupid person, and for the gene pool, is to let him expire of his own dumb choices. [Roger Wright on stupid people] We're like private member functions [John Theal on R&D] We're figuring out the parent thing as we go though. Kinda like setting up Linux for the first time ya' know... [Nitron]

[Christopher Duncan]

Well, there's a thousand scenarios that could be painted, but the high level point I was trying to make was that companies have taken to cutting their labor costs by getting the customer to do the job for them, and then applying peer pressure to make customers feel guilty when they don't. This is true not only in the food business, but also at grocery stores and who knows where else. However, I guess it's just the way things are these days... Chistopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World

[Atlantys]

Christopher Duncan wrote: that companies have taken to cutting their labor costs by getting the customer to do the job for them, and then applying peer pressure to make customers feel guilty when they don't Gotcha. As I was standing there, my thoughts were: "what will Chris Duncan think of all this?" (you know you spend too much time on CP when...) :-D PS: your name in the signature is missing an "r" The kindest thing you can do for a stupid person, and for the gene pool, is to let him expire of his own dumb choices. [Roger Wright on stupid people] We're like private member functions [John Theal on R&D] We're figuring out the parent thing as we go though. Kinda like setting up Linux for the first time ya' know... [Nitron]