Oh My Poor Students!
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LunaticFringe wrote: Right? Right. But I'm still cheering for them - I really want them to pass, and I know from the homework I see that they know how to do what is required. They just don't seem to pull it together when it comes exam time, and only one of them has the bonafide excuse of anxiety attacks to fall back on. I know that every one of them (except the guy with the anxiety attacks) can do the math in the real world, in a real job. But the school doesn't give me much leeway in what I have to base the grade upon. I had one teacher at Cal Poly, where I went to school, who gave us gobs of work to do for the practice, then at the end he dropped the worst homework, quiz, and exam before tallying the final score. I'm thinking that this might be appropriate for this class, and it could be the saving grace for half the class. "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."Roger Wright wrote: But I'm still cheering for them - I really want them to pass You're a good guy, and a good teacher. Roger Wright wrote: They just don't seem to pull it together when it comes exam time I'll tell you, I'd forgotten how nerve-wracking exams can be until a few years ago.:) Or maybe I'd never thought twice about it when I was younger; I don't know. :shrug: Roger Wright wrote: dropped the worst homework, quiz, and exam before tallying the final score. I'm thinking that this might be appropriate for this class That's pretty common practice. Have you spoken with a dean, or other admin types?
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I just don't see how failing them is the right thing to do when it is the system teaching them that is broken. I do agree they need to buckle down and catch up, work nights if they have to, but just sending them through the same system again is not going to help much. Roger is a good guy and pretty damned smart I reckon, but as he mentions his hands are tied. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Brian Welsch wrote: "blah blah blah, maybe a potato?" while translating my Afrikaans. Crikey! ain't life grand?
Paul Watson wrote: I just don't see how failing them is the right thing to do when it is the system teaching them that is broken. The system being a piece of shit doesn't prevent an individual from getting a good education if they're serious about it. Our co-conspirator David Stone seems to have survived all right, and he gives 2/3 of the credit to his parents. (You weren't home-schooled, were you, David?) I'd suggest that good values taught at home and an appreciation for the fact that it takes work to succeed enable one to get a decent education in spite of the system's shortcomings. The problem develops when a lack of discipline at home is magnified by 1) the chaotic atmosphere prevalent in most public schools, and 2) the acceptance of lower academic standards throughout our society.
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Paul Watson wrote: I just don't see how failing them is the right thing to do when it is the system teaching them that is broken. The system being a piece of shit doesn't prevent an individual from getting a good education if they're serious about it. Our co-conspirator David Stone seems to have survived all right, and he gives 2/3 of the credit to his parents. (You weren't home-schooled, were you, David?) I'd suggest that good values taught at home and an appreciation for the fact that it takes work to succeed enable one to get a decent education in spite of the system's shortcomings. The problem develops when a lack of discipline at home is magnified by 1) the chaotic atmosphere prevalent in most public schools, and 2) the acceptance of lower academic standards throughout our society.
LunaticFringe wrote: (You weren't home-schooled, were you, David?) Absolutely. :-D Proud of it too.
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
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Paul Watson wrote: I just don't see how failing them is the right thing to do when it is the system teaching them that is broken. The system being a piece of shit doesn't prevent an individual from getting a good education if they're serious about it. Our co-conspirator David Stone seems to have survived all right, and he gives 2/3 of the credit to his parents. (You weren't home-schooled, were you, David?) I'd suggest that good values taught at home and an appreciation for the fact that it takes work to succeed enable one to get a decent education in spite of the system's shortcomings. The problem develops when a lack of discipline at home is magnified by 1) the chaotic atmosphere prevalent in most public schools, and 2) the acceptance of lower academic standards throughout our society.
I don't want kids making the system their excuse at all. They should be making the most of what they are given. Hell knows I scraped through school and it was because I was just completely apathetic to the point. I could have done well, but I didn't, bad Paul. However, that is then no excuse for the system to languish in mediocrity or continue to degrade. You said it yourself. So, both parties should be striving for excellence. The system making use of the raw talent and the raw talent making use of the system. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Brian Welsch wrote: "blah blah blah, maybe a potato?" while translating my Afrikaans. Crikey! ain't life grand?
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David Stone wrote: Now if I could just get this driving thing down... If you can master parallel parking, you can do anything. Like Math, it's practice, practice, practice. I failed my first driving test, but got the license because the examiner couldn't add. How ironic is that?:laugh: David Stone wrote: I'm trying to avoid having to do that. At your age that's exactly what you should be doing. It won't work, but the earlier you learn how to deal with failure, the better. The only difference between those who succeed and those who fail is that those who succeed get up and try again when they fail. The ones who lie down and accept failure are the ones who fail, and they make a lifestyle of it. Don't go there - it's really ugly. Robert Heilbruner (one of my favorite authors) once said that it's most important for a young man to be fired. That teaches him that he can get another job, that he's not a failure, and that he needn't live in fear of a boss. I'm paraphrasing a lot, because it's been a lot of years since I read his books, but that's the gist of it. "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."Roger Wright wrote: The only difference between those who succeed and those who fail is that those who succeed get up and try again when they fail. The ones who lie down and accept failure are the ones who fail, and they make a lifestyle of it. Don't go there - it's really ugly. Robert Heilbruner (one of my favorite authors) once said that it's most important for a young man to be fired. That teaches him that he can get another job, that he's not a failure, and that he needn't live in fear of a boss. Wow that's cool. Aside from the getting fired part. I haven't done that yet...and I don't particularly want to.
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
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LunaticFringe wrote: (You weren't home-schooled, were you, David?) Absolutely. :-D Proud of it too.
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
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I don't want kids making the system their excuse at all. They should be making the most of what they are given. Hell knows I scraped through school and it was because I was just completely apathetic to the point. I could have done well, but I didn't, bad Paul. However, that is then no excuse for the system to languish in mediocrity or continue to degrade. You said it yourself. So, both parties should be striving for excellence. The system making use of the raw talent and the raw talent making use of the system. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Brian Welsch wrote: "blah blah blah, maybe a potato?" while translating my Afrikaans. Crikey! ain't life grand?
Paul Watson wrote: So, both parties should be striving for excellence. I agree! But that means that it's Roger's responsibility to not rubber-stamp them because someone else taught them it's OK to screw off. If they don't deserve to pass, they don't deserve to pass, regardless of who's fault it is (assuming Roger's in the clear :) ).
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Motivation is probably a teacher's most inmportant job. No teacher ever taught me anything - I learned it myself with the teacher's expectations and encouragement to motivate me. I do encourage them, tell them how important these basic steps are in their daily lives. I try to give them real world examples, too - show them how to compare loan deals to make sure they're not being cheated, to calculate payoffs from shady insurance scams, to cheat the tax man by using the most profitable inventory valuation method for their respective businesses. It's not always easy to come up with meaningful examples, but I can tell from the lights in their eyes when I'm hitting home. But if they won't try. there's not a heck of a lot I can do....:( "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."Roger Wright wrote: I do encourage them, tell them how important these basic steps are in their daily lives. I try to give them real world examples, too Good. I thought so - you seem to be conscientious about your job/role. :) Roger Wright wrote: But if they won't try. there's not a heck of a lot I can do.... True. :sigh:
**"Have a heart that never hardens, a temper that never tires, a touch that never hurts." -- Charles Dickens
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LunaticFringe wrote: (You weren't home-schooled, were you, David?) Absolutely. :-D Proud of it too.
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
David Stone wrote: LunaticFringe wrote: (You weren't home-schooled, were you, David?) Absolutely. Proud of it too. Same here - homeschooled and proud of it. :-D
**"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens." -- Jimi Hendrix
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Paul Watson wrote: So, both parties should be striving for excellence. I agree! But that means that it's Roger's responsibility to not rubber-stamp them because someone else taught them it's OK to screw off. If they don't deserve to pass, they don't deserve to pass, regardless of who's fault it is (assuming Roger's in the clear :) ).
I concede, you are right. But it angers me because the system is not going to change because these kids were failed. Next year they will struggle again, some will figure out they just have to submit to the system and do it, others will quit the course, others will fail all over again. The curriculum board, the system administrators, the professors and teachers will just blame the kids. Roger doesn't because he is not in the system full-time, he is still an outsider to it. Anyway. I don't think schools and many varsity courses have the right end of the stick. Going on my school record, those infallible numbers, I should be a ditch digger or working at McDonalds. But I am not, I am doing pretty well. The real world I get. Some of those boffins in school, the straight A guys... they are not doing so well. One served me a beer the other day. It is harsh because they are clever clogs, they have much to give the world but the system never prepared them, never showed them that the real world does not work like school. They trusted the system, never questioned it (which is a bad thing IMO) and had the wind knocked out of them by real life. I guess all in all neither side should be blaming each other. Both sides should *want* success, they want the same thing; Educated human beings. We should get back to basics and start a slow but steady revision of the system and the attitudes and expectations that parents teach kids. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Brian Welsch wrote: "blah blah blah, maybe a potato?" while translating my Afrikaans. Crikey! ain't life grand?
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Rob Manderson wrote: it doesn't seem as though the course is compulsory (in the same way that math is at high school). That's one thing I really don't understand. These people aren't being forced into college as they were forced into high school. They choose to go and tuition isn't exactly cheap. So why don't they actually try to learn? :doh:
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
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Rob Manderson wrote: it doesn't seem as though the course is compulsory (in the same way that math is at high school). That's one thing I really don't understand. These people aren't being forced into college as they were forced into high school. They choose to go and tuition isn't exactly cheap. So why don't they actually try to learn? :doh:
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
David Stone wrote: So why don't they actually try to learn? Don't forget that the world is full of distractions... If you are not careful, it could do you harm. :suss: Weiye, Chen When pursuing your dreams, don't forget to enjoy your life...
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I concede, you are right. But it angers me because the system is not going to change because these kids were failed. Next year they will struggle again, some will figure out they just have to submit to the system and do it, others will quit the course, others will fail all over again. The curriculum board, the system administrators, the professors and teachers will just blame the kids. Roger doesn't because he is not in the system full-time, he is still an outsider to it. Anyway. I don't think schools and many varsity courses have the right end of the stick. Going on my school record, those infallible numbers, I should be a ditch digger or working at McDonalds. But I am not, I am doing pretty well. The real world I get. Some of those boffins in school, the straight A guys... they are not doing so well. One served me a beer the other day. It is harsh because they are clever clogs, they have much to give the world but the system never prepared them, never showed them that the real world does not work like school. They trusted the system, never questioned it (which is a bad thing IMO) and had the wind knocked out of them by real life. I guess all in all neither side should be blaming each other. Both sides should *want* success, they want the same thing; Educated human beings. We should get back to basics and start a slow but steady revision of the system and the attitudes and expectations that parents teach kids. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Brian Welsch wrote: "blah blah blah, maybe a potato?" while translating my Afrikaans. Crikey! ain't life grand?
Y'know, being as I'm in that iffy age between 49 and 50 it occurs to me that it's my generation who have let things come to this pass. Which puzzles me mightily given that I attended a lower working class school focussed on producing factory fodder. Surely those of us who managed to break out of that milieu should have known better? No, I don't believe that all school administrators grew up in Footscray :) Nor do I believe they all grew up in Toorak. I really do puzzle over it though. I pose (for example) the question of 'how did we get into the situation where kids think they don't need to read cuz there's a Disney movie of the book'? Who taught them to believe that? The only answer I can honestly find is 'we did'. Too many years of let's find the easy way to do something made us teach our kids that honest work is for the gloopy ones - the smart ones find a shortcut. Uh huh - my grandmother thought the same of her son. And i'm sure her grandmother thought the same of her. Yet surely there has to come a time when one protests at the laziness that lets a 12 year old boy feel he's martyring himself by going hungry rather than walk the 200 yards to the local MacDonalds*? *True story. When I started living here Andrew asked me to drive him to MacDonalds for lunch. I said 'we can walk there in 3 minutes.'. He declined and spent the entire afternoon playing the martyr. Notice I said 'we'. I don't ask him to do anything I wouldn't be prepared to do myself. Rob Manderson http://www.mindprobes.net "I killed him dead cuz he was stepping on my turf, cutting me out of my bling the same way my ho cuts cookies, officer" "Alright then, move along" - Ian Darling, The Lounge, Oct 10 2003
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Motivation is probably a teacher's most inmportant job. No teacher ever taught me anything - I learned it myself with the teacher's expectations and encouragement to motivate me. I do encourage them, tell them how important these basic steps are in their daily lives. I try to give them real world examples, too - show them how to compare loan deals to make sure they're not being cheated, to calculate payoffs from shady insurance scams, to cheat the tax man by using the most profitable inventory valuation method for their respective businesses. It's not always easy to come up with meaningful examples, but I can tell from the lights in their eyes when I'm hitting home. But if they won't try. there's not a heck of a lot I can do....:( "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."Indeed, instilling enthusiasm in your students is the greatest thing you can do for them IMO. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Brian Welsch wrote: "blah blah blah, maybe a potato?" while translating my Afrikaans. Crikey! ain't life grand?
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We had Exam 3 last Thursday. Interest, Annuities, Inventory valuation methods, Mortgages and Consumer Loans, and Depreciation. Yikes!!!! The highest score was 65%! That's a 'D' - barely passing. What the heck am I doing wrong? I ask them to read the chapter before the night of the lecture (none do). I give the lecture, then send them off to do 30 -100 homework problems before the next class (few do them on time). At the beginning of the next class I have them do a 20 question quiz on the material before moving on to the next chapter's lecture. Homework scores fall in the range of 75% to 95%; quizzes run 65% to 85%. The second exam turned out so bad that I let them all take it again - 40% didn't show up for class for the retest. This one was no better, despite their excellent work on homework problems and quizzes, but there's no time left to retest again. I set a deadline tonight - all past due homework and missed quizzes will be done by next Wednesday, or they will not be graded. I've bent over backward to make this silly class as easy to pass as a falling down test, and still they're failing. I hate to be an ogre, but I'm seriously considering refusing to accept any late assignments next semester without a note from a coroner. Math, especially at this low level, is learned by repetition; it's not a fuzzy subject where opinions and feelings count. Practice, practice, practice is the only way to learn it. The students aren't taking it seriously, and their exam scores show it. We're on Chapter 16 now, and tonight one of them turned in homework from Chapter 7! I want every one of these people to pass - it's not hard, and I can tell from their homework that they know the material, but I'm required to grade on everything! That includes attendance, homework, quizzes, and exams, and the final is in three weeks. What can I do to save them from having to retake this class? Any suggestions? "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot." -
What a wonderful way to join the community! Let me be the first to tell you to go away loser. You pick on Roger and you pick on us all. And we're formidable!!!! Rob Manderson http://www.mindprobes.net "I killed him dead cuz he was stepping on my turf, cutting me out of my bling the same way my ho cuts cookies, officer" "Alright then, move along" - Ian Darling, The Lounge, Oct 10 2003
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What a wonderful way to join the community! Let me be the first to tell you to go away loser. You pick on Roger and you pick on us all. And we're formidable!!!! Rob Manderson http://www.mindprobes.net "I killed him dead cuz he was stepping on my turf, cutting me out of my bling the same way my ho cuts cookies, officer" "Alright then, move along" - Ian Darling, The Lounge, Oct 10 2003
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Rob Manderson wrote: it doesn't seem as though the course is compulsory (in the same way that math is at high school). That's one thing I really don't understand. These people aren't being forced into college as they were forced into high school. They choose to go and tuition isn't exactly cheap. So why don't they actually try to learn? :doh:
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
David Stone wrote: So why don't they actually try to learn? As Lunatic said. It is a few more years that they can skip having to work, At their parents expense. Even my kids tell me that and one is not to far from being on his own! So many can not see past NOW is incredible. "For as long as I can remember, I have had memories. Colin Mochrie."
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Well, only one is actually failing, and that's only because she live 6 miles away and has no way to get to class but walking - she's missed more classes than she's attended. I hate to fail them, since their homework clearly shows that they can do the math. But I also hate to send them out into the world thinking that they can skate by without applying themselves to the task at hand. That would be a violation of trust with those who may eventually hire them based on the classes they took in college. "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."Roger Wright wrote: I hate to fail them, since their homework clearly shows that they can do the math. Um "Someone can do the math?" "For as long as I can remember, I have had memories. Colin Mochrie."
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Don't take it personally, Roger. I don't have any first hand experience here, but I suspect your experience and reaction are pretty common. This is probably going to sound like classic oldster griping about the declining state of the country, but I've taken college courses in the last 5 years or so, and so have bit of experience, anyway, in school recently. The quality of public education in this country sucks compared to 30, 40 years ago. Colleges have become remedial education programs trying to teach the basic skills once taught in high school or below. The vast number of colleges, online universities, etc, has reduced the significance of holding a degree to nearly nothing. I worked with one MsEE 8 years or so ago who knew less about electronics theory than I did in junior high school. (But she was a cute little babe, and no-one probably ever thought of flunking her.) I'd say flunk 'em. It's probably the best thing you can do for them. Only knowing you in a superficial sense through CP, I can't say with any degree of certainty, but to me you sound like a decent guy. If you say you've made it as simple as falling down, I believe you. If you have the integrity I think you do, your conscience will bitch at you if you rubber-stamp them. Your conscience will probably bitch anyway if you flunk them, but sometimes life's not easy and you have to stand up for what you think is right. Right? :)
LunaticFringe wrote: The quality of public education in this country sucks compared to 30, 40 years ago. You may be giving to much credit to what existed. I think it is as much an attitude of society as just the schools. I taught Dynamics backin the 70's. A Junior level course and had a student who was on a wrestling scholarship. After his second test and his accumulative score was still 0. His coach called me and asked why I was so hard. I explained I had not been able to find one correct addition or multiplication on any of his work. The coach then "encouraged" me to give credit for spelling his name correctly. How did this guy pass the prerequisites for this class? PS I am glad I did not have a football or basketball player. Their coaches could influence your department chairman to add to your motivation. :sigh: "For as long as I can remember, I have had memories. Colin Mochrie."