Oh My Poor Students!
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What a wonderful way to join the community! Let me be the first to tell you to go away loser. You pick on Roger and you pick on us all. And we're formidable!!!! Rob Manderson http://www.mindprobes.net "I killed him dead cuz he was stepping on my turf, cutting me out of my bling the same way my ho cuts cookies, officer" "Alright then, move along" - Ian Darling, The Lounge, Oct 10 2003
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What a wonderful way to join the community! Let me be the first to tell you to go away loser. You pick on Roger and you pick on us all. And we're formidable!!!! Rob Manderson http://www.mindprobes.net "I killed him dead cuz he was stepping on my turf, cutting me out of my bling the same way my ho cuts cookies, officer" "Alright then, move along" - Ian Darling, The Lounge, Oct 10 2003
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Rob Manderson wrote: it doesn't seem as though the course is compulsory (in the same way that math is at high school). That's one thing I really don't understand. These people aren't being forced into college as they were forced into high school. They choose to go and tuition isn't exactly cheap. So why don't they actually try to learn? :doh:
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
David Stone wrote: So why don't they actually try to learn? As Lunatic said. It is a few more years that they can skip having to work, At their parents expense. Even my kids tell me that and one is not to far from being on his own! So many can not see past NOW is incredible. "For as long as I can remember, I have had memories. Colin Mochrie."
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Well, only one is actually failing, and that's only because she live 6 miles away and has no way to get to class but walking - she's missed more classes than she's attended. I hate to fail them, since their homework clearly shows that they can do the math. But I also hate to send them out into the world thinking that they can skate by without applying themselves to the task at hand. That would be a violation of trust with those who may eventually hire them based on the classes they took in college. "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."Roger Wright wrote: I hate to fail them, since their homework clearly shows that they can do the math. Um "Someone can do the math?" "For as long as I can remember, I have had memories. Colin Mochrie."
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Don't take it personally, Roger. I don't have any first hand experience here, but I suspect your experience and reaction are pretty common. This is probably going to sound like classic oldster griping about the declining state of the country, but I've taken college courses in the last 5 years or so, and so have bit of experience, anyway, in school recently. The quality of public education in this country sucks compared to 30, 40 years ago. Colleges have become remedial education programs trying to teach the basic skills once taught in high school or below. The vast number of colleges, online universities, etc, has reduced the significance of holding a degree to nearly nothing. I worked with one MsEE 8 years or so ago who knew less about electronics theory than I did in junior high school. (But she was a cute little babe, and no-one probably ever thought of flunking her.) I'd say flunk 'em. It's probably the best thing you can do for them. Only knowing you in a superficial sense through CP, I can't say with any degree of certainty, but to me you sound like a decent guy. If you say you've made it as simple as falling down, I believe you. If you have the integrity I think you do, your conscience will bitch at you if you rubber-stamp them. Your conscience will probably bitch anyway if you flunk them, but sometimes life's not easy and you have to stand up for what you think is right. Right? :)
LunaticFringe wrote: The quality of public education in this country sucks compared to 30, 40 years ago. You may be giving to much credit to what existed. I think it is as much an attitude of society as just the schools. I taught Dynamics backin the 70's. A Junior level course and had a student who was on a wrestling scholarship. After his second test and his accumulative score was still 0. His coach called me and asked why I was so hard. I explained I had not been able to find one correct addition or multiplication on any of his work. The coach then "encouraged" me to give credit for spelling his name correctly. How did this guy pass the prerequisites for this class? PS I am glad I did not have a football or basketball player. Their coaches could influence your department chairman to add to your motivation. :sigh: "For as long as I can remember, I have had memories. Colin Mochrie."
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Roger Wright wrote: The only difference between those who succeed and those who fail is that those who succeed get up and try again when they fail. The ones who lie down and accept failure are the ones who fail, and they make a lifestyle of it. Don't go there - it's really ugly. Robert Heilbruner (one of my favorite authors) once said that it's most important for a young man to be fired. That teaches him that he can get another job, that he's not a failure, and that he needn't live in fear of a boss. Wow that's cool. Aside from the getting fired part. I haven't done that yet...and I don't particularly want to.
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
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We had Exam 3 last Thursday. Interest, Annuities, Inventory valuation methods, Mortgages and Consumer Loans, and Depreciation. Yikes!!!! The highest score was 65%! That's a 'D' - barely passing. What the heck am I doing wrong? I ask them to read the chapter before the night of the lecture (none do). I give the lecture, then send them off to do 30 -100 homework problems before the next class (few do them on time). At the beginning of the next class I have them do a 20 question quiz on the material before moving on to the next chapter's lecture. Homework scores fall in the range of 75% to 95%; quizzes run 65% to 85%. The second exam turned out so bad that I let them all take it again - 40% didn't show up for class for the retest. This one was no better, despite their excellent work on homework problems and quizzes, but there's no time left to retest again. I set a deadline tonight - all past due homework and missed quizzes will be done by next Wednesday, or they will not be graded. I've bent over backward to make this silly class as easy to pass as a falling down test, and still they're failing. I hate to be an ogre, but I'm seriously considering refusing to accept any late assignments next semester without a note from a coroner. Math, especially at this low level, is learned by repetition; it's not a fuzzy subject where opinions and feelings count. Practice, practice, practice is the only way to learn it. The students aren't taking it seriously, and their exam scores show it. We're on Chapter 16 now, and tonight one of them turned in homework from Chapter 7! I want every one of these people to pass - it's not hard, and I can tell from their homework that they know the material, but I'm required to grade on everything! That includes attendance, homework, quizzes, and exams, and the final is in three weeks. What can I do to save them from having to retake this class? Any suggestions? "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."(Assuming some undergraduate course) Is this a required course for them that is related directly to their degree? If not, I wouldn't expect too much. I remember when I was in school and going to my first Intro to DP classes. It was mainly filled with people that didn't have Computer Science as their degree and could care less about the class. In fact, I was very disliked for speaking out and taking the class seriously as I think I was the only there as a part of their mandatory track. Anyway, I'm just guessing that this is not an important class to them so they're simply not motivated, which leaves very little for you to do in order to motivate them other than getting very creative with the assignments (such as having them create their own small businesses). Cheers, Tom Archer * Inside C# -Second Edition * Visual C++.NET Bible * Extending MFC Applications with the .NET Framework
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We had Exam 3 last Thursday. Interest, Annuities, Inventory valuation methods, Mortgages and Consumer Loans, and Depreciation. Yikes!!!! The highest score was 65%! That's a 'D' - barely passing. What the heck am I doing wrong? I ask them to read the chapter before the night of the lecture (none do). I give the lecture, then send them off to do 30 -100 homework problems before the next class (few do them on time). At the beginning of the next class I have them do a 20 question quiz on the material before moving on to the next chapter's lecture. Homework scores fall in the range of 75% to 95%; quizzes run 65% to 85%. The second exam turned out so bad that I let them all take it again - 40% didn't show up for class for the retest. This one was no better, despite their excellent work on homework problems and quizzes, but there's no time left to retest again. I set a deadline tonight - all past due homework and missed quizzes will be done by next Wednesday, or they will not be graded. I've bent over backward to make this silly class as easy to pass as a falling down test, and still they're failing. I hate to be an ogre, but I'm seriously considering refusing to accept any late assignments next semester without a note from a coroner. Math, especially at this low level, is learned by repetition; it's not a fuzzy subject where opinions and feelings count. Practice, practice, practice is the only way to learn it. The students aren't taking it seriously, and their exam scores show it. We're on Chapter 16 now, and tonight one of them turned in homework from Chapter 7! I want every one of these people to pass - it's not hard, and I can tell from their homework that they know the material, but I'm required to grade on everything! That includes attendance, homework, quizzes, and exams, and the final is in three weeks. What can I do to save them from having to retake this class? Any suggestions? "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."Student Here.... Ok... Not much you can do.. unless your lecturering/teching in Ireland.. then off drink to the highest results in the class.... You'd be amazed how that can motivate people to study. I just have one observation (and I'm basing this on some premises that may, or may not be true). Your one Subject.... Am I right in Presuming they have maybe 6/7 subjects in total in a given semester/year the same as over here??? And that they have between 25 and 30 hours of Lecturers/Tutorials/Practicals a week in college? And they have between 4 and 5 of your lecturers a week with you? Well... I'm presuming that both of these are true for my observation... My observation is this: You're giving way too much work to do out of college hours.... 30 - 100 question 4 times a week... for just your subject!!! Man... relax.. no student will enjoy a subject if they have work pilled on them.. and if they don't enjoy it then they won't do well in it... And it doesn't amtter if the material is hard or not... I personally prefer harder things because they are more of a challenge and therefore keep me interested. Simple things are ok to a point but boring after a while. Anyway.. My presumptions could be completely wrong... if they are.. I'm sorry... If not.. then you should be grovelling for forgivness from your students. Regards, Brian Dela :-) http://www.briandela.com IE 6 required.
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MFC.NET Application Wizard Mix .NET and MFC easily. -
(Assuming some undergraduate course) Is this a required course for them that is related directly to their degree? If not, I wouldn't expect too much. I remember when I was in school and going to my first Intro to DP classes. It was mainly filled with people that didn't have Computer Science as their degree and could care less about the class. In fact, I was very disliked for speaking out and taking the class seriously as I think I was the only there as a part of their mandatory track. Anyway, I'm just guessing that this is not an important class to them so they're simply not motivated, which leaves very little for you to do in order to motivate them other than getting very creative with the assignments (such as having them create their own small businesses). Cheers, Tom Archer * Inside C# -Second Edition * Visual C++.NET Bible * Extending MFC Applications with the .NET Framework
Tom Archer wrote: related directly to their degree? It's one of those required courses that isn't related to any degree, except perhaps a business major, which none of them are. I well remember having to take classes that were utterly irrelevant to my interests when I was in college. I passed them, but sometimes just barely.:-O "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot." -
We had Exam 3 last Thursday. Interest, Annuities, Inventory valuation methods, Mortgages and Consumer Loans, and Depreciation. Yikes!!!! The highest score was 65%! That's a 'D' - barely passing. What the heck am I doing wrong? I ask them to read the chapter before the night of the lecture (none do). I give the lecture, then send them off to do 30 -100 homework problems before the next class (few do them on time). At the beginning of the next class I have them do a 20 question quiz on the material before moving on to the next chapter's lecture. Homework scores fall in the range of 75% to 95%; quizzes run 65% to 85%. The second exam turned out so bad that I let them all take it again - 40% didn't show up for class for the retest. This one was no better, despite their excellent work on homework problems and quizzes, but there's no time left to retest again. I set a deadline tonight - all past due homework and missed quizzes will be done by next Wednesday, or they will not be graded. I've bent over backward to make this silly class as easy to pass as a falling down test, and still they're failing. I hate to be an ogre, but I'm seriously considering refusing to accept any late assignments next semester without a note from a coroner. Math, especially at this low level, is learned by repetition; it's not a fuzzy subject where opinions and feelings count. Practice, practice, practice is the only way to learn it. The students aren't taking it seriously, and their exam scores show it. We're on Chapter 16 now, and tonight one of them turned in homework from Chapter 7! I want every one of these people to pass - it's not hard, and I can tell from their homework that they know the material, but I'm required to grade on everything! That includes attendance, homework, quizzes, and exams, and the final is in three weeks. What can I do to save them from having to retake this class? Any suggestions? "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."I'm a college student myself and I have to say that there is really not too much that can be done. You seem to be doing all you can to get these people to pass and it seems as if they just don't care. (Or at least most of them don't.) I think that it's sad that a lot of students just don't care about what they are doing while they're in college, like it's a giant party or something. I find that a lot of people at my school are just here for a good time. I, myself, am very greatful to be going to college. I'm the pretty much the first one in my family that has gone on to college. (Most joined the military.) I don't think that students should take going to college lightly considering most people's parents are shelling out a lot of money. I know my parents are shelling out about $20,000 (taken out in loans) and that I feel that I owe it to them to do my best. There is one class that I study for continously and read all that I'm told to read, but I still do poorly on tests. In this case though the professor doesn't do much to help or teach what he wants to get across. There isn't a lot of help offered, or extra credit, or anything like that. So I think that you're students are lucky to have a teacher like you. Now I'm not saying that I came to college to work work work....I still have a good time while I'm here. But the difference is I work/study hard so that my time here isn't a waste. There's pleanty of time to go out and have fun and still study. There's not much that can be done to save them from retaking the class. They have to want to learn and care enough to get help if they're struggling.
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Student Here.... Ok... Not much you can do.. unless your lecturering/teching in Ireland.. then off drink to the highest results in the class.... You'd be amazed how that can motivate people to study. I just have one observation (and I'm basing this on some premises that may, or may not be true). Your one Subject.... Am I right in Presuming they have maybe 6/7 subjects in total in a given semester/year the same as over here??? And that they have between 25 and 30 hours of Lecturers/Tutorials/Practicals a week in college? And they have between 4 and 5 of your lecturers a week with you? Well... I'm presuming that both of these are true for my observation... My observation is this: You're giving way too much work to do out of college hours.... 30 - 100 question 4 times a week... for just your subject!!! Man... relax.. no student will enjoy a subject if they have work pilled on them.. and if they don't enjoy it then they won't do well in it... And it doesn't amtter if the material is hard or not... I personally prefer harder things because they are more of a challenge and therefore keep me interested. Simple things are ok to a point but boring after a while. Anyway.. My presumptions could be completely wrong... if they are.. I'm sorry... If not.. then you should be grovelling for forgivness from your students. Regards, Brian Dela :-) http://www.briandela.com IE 6 required.
http://www.briandela.com/rss/newsrss.xml RSS Feed
MFC.NET Application Wizard Mix .NET and MFC easily.Good points, wrong assumptions. My students are taking, at most, three classes, and my class meets only twice a week, not 4 times. Typical homework questions are "What is the decimal equivalent of 35%?" and "A loan for $20,000 at 9% interest is scheduled to be paid in 24 months. How much of the first month's payment is interest?" The rule of thumb used in US colleges is that homework time should be three times the classroom hours. Since this is a three hour class, that should work out to 9 hours of homework a week - far too much for a non-major class, in my opinion. These assignments, when they get around to doing them, are taking a total of about three hours a week. I spend more time than that grading the stuff, since I take the time to analyze what they've done, decrypt their rotten handwriting, and writing detailed explanations for each problem missed. A couple of them do feel buried by homework; they're the ones who haven't done any all semester and are trying to catch up. "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot." -
I'm a college student myself and I have to say that there is really not too much that can be done. You seem to be doing all you can to get these people to pass and it seems as if they just don't care. (Or at least most of them don't.) I think that it's sad that a lot of students just don't care about what they are doing while they're in college, like it's a giant party or something. I find that a lot of people at my school are just here for a good time. I, myself, am very greatful to be going to college. I'm the pretty much the first one in my family that has gone on to college. (Most joined the military.) I don't think that students should take going to college lightly considering most people's parents are shelling out a lot of money. I know my parents are shelling out about $20,000 (taken out in loans) and that I feel that I owe it to them to do my best. There is one class that I study for continously and read all that I'm told to read, but I still do poorly on tests. In this case though the professor doesn't do much to help or teach what he wants to get across. There isn't a lot of help offered, or extra credit, or anything like that. So I think that you're students are lucky to have a teacher like you. Now I'm not saying that I came to college to work work work....I still have a good time while I'm here. But the difference is I work/study hard so that my time here isn't a waste. There's pleanty of time to go out and have fun and still study. There's not much that can be done to save them from retaking the class. They have to want to learn and care enough to get help if they're struggling.
Erin wrote: the first one in my family that has gone on to college Bravo! What a great new family tradition to start. I'll bet the whole family is very proud of you!:-D Erin wrote: In this case though the professor doesn't do much to help or teach That's a shame; for the money you're paying the professor should be doing everything possible to help his students master the subject. Mine all have my phone number and email address, and are welcome to call or write with any questions. They also have access at the school to tutoring services, which only one has used. Erin wrote: There's pleanty of time to go out and have fun and still study. That was my experience, too. It meant some really long days with far too little sleep, but I survived 18 - 22 units of engineering classes, a full time job, lots of homework, and still managed to do my fair share of partying. It can be done if one really wants that degree. Good luck to you!:-D "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot." -
LunaticFringe wrote: Mommy and Daddy are probably paying for it. Ahh...that's right...so are mine. :)
When I can talk about 64 bit processors and attract girls with my computer not my car, I'll come out of the closet. Until that time...I'm like "What's the ENTER key?" -Hockey on being a geek
David Stone wrote: Ahh...that's right...so are mine. At least you're motivated to learn. I know way too many people whose parents are paying for university, and the kid just sits around drinking and smoking up all day. This is generalized of course, but I found that the ones who pay their way out of their own pocket have much more motivation to actually accomplish something at uni, compared to the one whose parents pay for it all. and tuition in the States is disgusting: i thought it was bad up here. :yikes: The kindest thing you can do for a stupid person, and for the gene pool, is to let him expire of his own dumb choices. [Roger Wright on stupid people] We're like private member functions [John Theal on R&D] We're figuring out the parent thing as we go though. Kinda like setting up Linux for the first time ya' know... [Nitron]
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Steve Mayfield wrote: I was lucky to get by with a "D" in one and I failed the first time in the other I had one of those - "Calculus and Analytical Geometry in N Dimensions." The first time I took it, the instructor was a young punk fresh out of grad school who reminded us each class of how insulted he was to be forced to teach undergraduate classes - I don't think the ink on his PhD was dry yet. About the 5th week of the 10 week quarter he quit, and we had no teacher for a bit, then a sub who had never taught the subject before. I got an 'F' and deserved it. The second time I took it I discovered that I am incapable of visualizing more than three dimensions, but still managed to eke out a grade of 'D' for the class. I took the grade and ran... it was passing. I give my students real world examples of how they might need this math in their own lives, and they seem to respond to that quite well. But I also let them know some of the things I've learned in life, among them that not everything worth doing is worth doing well. It's possible that they have taken that too much to heart, but I certainly never said that anything important is worth failing! "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."A thought...If a person has never failed at something, he will never recognize having succeeded at something either....like movies, you can't appreciate good movies unless you have seen a few stinkers! I never really appreciated being employed (full time) until I was laid off several years ago and have to survive on contract programming until I found steady employment. Steve