Outsourcing to india
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Brad Fackrell wrote: I think that I will consider talking to some of the sales people that I work with as a starting point. An excellent place to start. Just remember me when you're rich & famous! :-D Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World
Christopher Duncan wrote: Just remember me when you're rich & famous Of course I will;)
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Chris, I checked out your Bio and saw your picture. A beer in one hand, (possibly a cigar in the other), very little clothing (you probably just rolled out of bed) and beautiful scenery in the background...sign me up for what ever it is that you do for a living;P
That's pretty close. I'm sitting on the deck at my cottage after an afternoon swim. I'm enjoying a Kilkenny in one hand and a Cuban Cohiba in the other. I can't take any credit for the natural slendour except to say that our family cottaging is of the very rustic variety and so we try to preserve as much of Mother Nature as we can. Our cottage is sorrounded by trees and has a great view of the lake being up on a hill about fifty feet above the water. Someday I'll put some photos together that really show it off. Thanks. :) Chris Meech It's much easier to get rich telling people what they want to hear. Chistopher Duncan I can't help getting older, but I refuse to grow up. Roger Wright I've been meaning to change my sig. Thanks! Alvaro Mendez
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Rohit Sinha wrote: You can't stop money. It keeps moving, even when you think you have locked it in a bank. I understand exactly what you are saying but what do the 50 people who loose theirs job this week do while waiting for this money to trickle back into the economy? Rohit Sinha wrote: Money used wisely creates more money and more jobs. I wish that we could trust company executives to actually use the money wisely. [^]
Of course it's bad for the people losing their jobs. I hope it doesn't happen to too many people, and those who have already lost jobs get new ones soon. I was talking about the overall picture. But what you say is extremely valid of course, and must be dealt with too. But hostility is not the answer, that's what I was saying. Competition yes, rivalry no. Regards, Rohit Sinha Browsy
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person. - Mother Teresa
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Of course it's bad for the people losing their jobs. I hope it doesn't happen to too many people, and those who have already lost jobs get new ones soon. I was talking about the overall picture. But what you say is extremely valid of course, and must be dealt with too. But hostility is not the answer, that's what I was saying. Competition yes, rivalry no. Regards, Rohit Sinha Browsy
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person. - Mother Teresa
Competition is good. That, in my opinion, is what makes a strong economy. The problem is as I mentioned earlier, I can’t compete with somebody who is willing to do my job for $8.00/hour. That just simply puts me "out of business". If I’m competing for business with Joe Programmer down the street who has roughly the same overhead costs that I have and Joe lowers his price then I most likely can also lower my price or sell myself as a better programmer and keep my price a few dollars higher. If I’m charging more than twice as much as Joe simply because I have overhead costs that Joe may not have then it would be pretty hard to say that my work is more than twice as good as Joe’s work because Joe is also a very good programmer. ...I hope you understand my point. I know that I sometimes ramble on and on:-D Rohit Sinha wrote: Competition yes, rivalry no. ...you know how Americans are. We like a good fight:rolleyes:
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Competition is good. That, in my opinion, is what makes a strong economy. The problem is as I mentioned earlier, I can’t compete with somebody who is willing to do my job for $8.00/hour. That just simply puts me "out of business". If I’m competing for business with Joe Programmer down the street who has roughly the same overhead costs that I have and Joe lowers his price then I most likely can also lower my price or sell myself as a better programmer and keep my price a few dollars higher. If I’m charging more than twice as much as Joe simply because I have overhead costs that Joe may not have then it would be pretty hard to say that my work is more than twice as good as Joe’s work because Joe is also a very good programmer. ...I hope you understand my point. I know that I sometimes ramble on and on:-D Rohit Sinha wrote: Competition yes, rivalry no. ...you know how Americans are. We like a good fight:rolleyes:
Brad Fackrell wrote: If I’m charging more than twice as much as Joe simply because I have overhead costs that Joe may not have then it would be pretty hard to say that my work is more than twice as good as Joe’s work because Joe is also a very good programmer. Good point, but then there are other things you can sell yourself on. Location/proximity, domain knowledge, etc. Basically you have to show that the total value you have to offer is more than the Joe programmer. Money is only a part of the total value you can offer. Prove to the client that you are indeed more skilled. Show him how you can fix problems and respond to their needs quicker and in a more effective manner simply because you are there in the neighbourhood. Communication barriers are not there since you and your client natively speak the same language and in the same accent. And remember, it's not only the total value value itself, but the perception of the value that you create about yourself, that works for you. And your sales skills, as Christopher pointed out. I'm not asking you to lie, but to present it in a manner that best highlights your good points, from the POV of the client. You have to show him that it's in his own interest to hire you rather than Joe. Brad Fackrell wrote: ...you know how Americans are. We like a good fight Arrrrr, and you shall get one! :cool: :rolleyes: Regards, Rohit Sinha Browsy
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person. - Mother Teresa
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Yes, but I am of the opinion that money doesn't stagnate. As soon as you invest it, or spend it, or even simply put it in the bank, someone else gets it. And the cycle continues. So even when the CEOs and the other top brass just keep pumping the money into their own wallet, it ultimately feeds the economy as well. Regards, Rohit Sinha Browsy
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person. - Mother Teresa
Rohit Sinha wrote: So even when the CEOs and the other top brass just keep pumping the money into their own wallet, it ultimately feeds the economy as well. Yes, but how much damage does it do to the economy first? ie Enron, they stuffed there pockets and yes that money will make it back into the economy but will it help more people than it hurt? Matt Newman If you chose to continue this discussion, I am fully prepared to make you my bitch. I invite you to ask around, and you'll find out that I'm quite capable of doing so - John Simmons on Trolls
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I don't get the problem with this outsourcing stuff. Outsourcing is a FACT OF LIFE PEOPLE. Does GM make every part that goes into a car? That would be STUPID. Tim Smith I'm going to patent thought. I have yet to see any prior art.
Heh, car companies sometimes don't even make the whole car (Some older Chevy Novas, Toyota Tundras, etc) Matt Newman If you chose to continue this discussion, I am fully prepared to make you my bitch. I invite you to ask around, and you'll find out that I'm quite capable of doing so - John Simmons on Trolls
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Rohit Sinha wrote: The US IT industry saves a lot more money than what India gets this way by outsourcing. This money can be utilized in whatever manner they choose, including creating more jobs. I think you underestimate how greedy big business especially among high-end company positions has gotten. Ideally your comments should be absolutely true, but the thinking of US buisnesses is why save money just to pump it into new jobs when I can just save money and pump it into my own wallet. Matt Newman If you chose to continue this discussion, I am fully prepared to make you my bitch. I invite you to ask around, and you'll find out that I'm quite capable of doing so - John Simmons on Trolls
So, is outsourcing the real problem? From the comments here, It seems like corporate reform is what people want more than stopping out-sourcing. Most things sold in US supermarket chains are manufactured in China, Taiwan, Thailand or some country in Asia - won't doing all those jobs in US create make the job market better? I don't understand the problem that people have with software-outsourcing compared to furniture-making outsourcing. In both cases, the company/store is responsible for its product, and will go out of business if it fails to do what it was supposed to. You cannot get an idealistic socialist result with a capitalist system. I have come across many people on these forums, who don't like taxes because it is against basic freedom. Is outsourcing the basic freedom that management of a company has? Is remuneration of a senior executive of a company, the freedom of its shareholders? IMO, this is an organization to organization issue that has to be dealt with by the managements. As in the case in question, people have the right to demand not to outsource government work to foriegn land or even another state or town. I don't think that corporate fraud has been addressed properly, and will ever be. There cannot be a perfect system. Thomas My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
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Brad Fackrell wrote: If I’m charging more than twice as much as Joe simply because I have overhead costs that Joe may not have then it would be pretty hard to say that my work is more than twice as good as Joe’s work because Joe is also a very good programmer. Good point, but then there are other things you can sell yourself on. Location/proximity, domain knowledge, etc. Basically you have to show that the total value you have to offer is more than the Joe programmer. Money is only a part of the total value you can offer. Prove to the client that you are indeed more skilled. Show him how you can fix problems and respond to their needs quicker and in a more effective manner simply because you are there in the neighbourhood. Communication barriers are not there since you and your client natively speak the same language and in the same accent. And remember, it's not only the total value value itself, but the perception of the value that you create about yourself, that works for you. And your sales skills, as Christopher pointed out. I'm not asking you to lie, but to present it in a manner that best highlights your good points, from the POV of the client. You have to show him that it's in his own interest to hire you rather than Joe. Brad Fackrell wrote: ...you know how Americans are. We like a good fight Arrrrr, and you shall get one! :cool: :rolleyes: Regards, Rohit Sinha Browsy
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person. - Mother Teresa
Rohit Sinha wrote: there are other things you can sell yourself on. Location I think that location is the whole issue between American workers and workers in India. I don't have any figures to back this but I'm assuming that the cost of living here in the United States is much higher therefore we have to either charge more or move to India...I love my country and don't want to leave:(( *Clearing my throat* Enough with the emotional stuff.:-D As both you and Christopher have pointed out, it is all about how we sell our skills and we(I) need to stop whining and start selling!;) I certainly appreciate all of your input and, no hard feelings but, I hope that someday we can start to pull some work back from India.:)
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Rohit Sinha wrote: there are other things you can sell yourself on. Location I think that location is the whole issue between American workers and workers in India. I don't have any figures to back this but I'm assuming that the cost of living here in the United States is much higher therefore we have to either charge more or move to India...I love my country and don't want to leave:(( *Clearing my throat* Enough with the emotional stuff.:-D As both you and Christopher have pointed out, it is all about how we sell our skills and we(I) need to stop whining and start selling!;) I certainly appreciate all of your input and, no hard feelings but, I hope that someday we can start to pull some work back from India.:)
Brad Fackrell wrote: therefore we have to either charge more or move to India Not at all. The US has become the world leader not just by working but by creating work (and money) for everyone. Brad Fackrell wrote: I hope that someday we can start to pull some work back from India. I think that's inevitable. As the Indian economy keeps improving, it's only a matter of time till we lose the advantage of lower cost. Then other factors, such as proximity to the client, etc will become more imporant and assume a bigger role. But by then hopefully there will be enough work in India itself so things will be OK. :) And considering how Indian companies have already started spreading into other countries, and acquiring other companies, who knows, 10 or 20 years down the line a US guy may be working on a project for an Indian company. :) :rolleyes: Well, I can dream, can't I? :) Regards, Rohit Sinha Browsy
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person. - Mother Teresa
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Rohit Sinha wrote: So even when the CEOs and the other top brass just keep pumping the money into their own wallet, it ultimately feeds the economy as well. Yes, but how much damage does it do to the economy first? ie Enron, they stuffed there pockets and yes that money will make it back into the economy but will it help more people than it hurt? Matt Newman If you chose to continue this discussion, I am fully prepared to make you my bitch. I invite you to ask around, and you'll find out that I'm quite capable of doing so - John Simmons on Trolls
As Thomas says below, this is an entirely different issue and needs to be handled differently. Enron didn't happen because of outsourcing. Regards, Rohit Sinha Browsy
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person. - Mother Teresa
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Hi all, We had discussed this many times in the past, but i do not understand the wisdom of canceling an order which an indian it company won over fellow US IT companies. If you read this you will understand why it does not make sense both logically and economically to cancel the order http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-334938,Curpg-1.cms PS: I really mind ppl getting unemployed in other part of the world, so dont think i am a greeedy indian Cheers, Venkatraman Kalyanam Bangalore - India Why the US can't win the outsourcing war against India Our advice to US CEOs, governors and senators: come out of denial and switch to curd-rice for dessert; it’s both cheaper and healthier - for bottomlines of the physical kind – than ice-cream http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-334938,Curpg-1.cms
Look at what Republican Governor Joe Kernan’s decision to cancel a $15.2-million, four-year contract to Tata Consultancy Services subsidiary Tata America International Corp. will cost the state of Indiana: $8.1 million. That was the difference between the bids made by TCS and its nearest competitor – either Accenture or Deloitte Consulting. By keeping the job local, the government can generate more taxes, so it is not simply a matter of costing $8.1 million. In this case, the $15.2 million dollars, mostly in salaries is taxable. Taxes in the US are about 35%. The other 65% will mostly be spent - generally at local stores, though the manufacturers (who could be located anywhere) will also benefit. Now, back to the tax amount of 35%. (Only some of that is state taxes probably 10% for state income taxes and 6% for sales tax, which also goes to the state, the rest to federal taxes). Now, 35% of $15 million is $5 million in extra income. This takes quite a bite out of the assumed 8 million loss. We haven't even figured in the benefit to the local economy (though sales by local stores), but I'll just skip trying to estimate that. Second, Indian companies give tax breaks to their computer industry. I'm not entirely against that, but how is forgoing $100 million in taxes to help local business any different than paying an extra $100 million to help local business? The answer is: from the government's perspective of net income/expenditure, there is no difference at all. The only difference is psychological. Next, by moving jobs overseas, we are giving overseas competitors experience and not our own people, then overseas workers will be better able to compete in the future, accelerating job loss, accelerating tax loss. The cost benefits of outsourcing to India are always overexaggerated. An Indian newspaper is hardly an objective source on this subject because if you are in India, no one is ever going to question your facts if you underestimate the costs. It goes back to a simple human logical problem that people require hard facts when an idea goes against what they believe or want to believe, but when someone says something you want to believe, no one ever asks for hard facts. When the story says, "the average salary at which each of the 3,500 IIT grads starts is $10,000. Their counterpart in the US earns $80,000.", the $80,000 figure is patently false. But, I doubt the editors at the Indian newspaper have much impetus to question the numbers. But, if the paper had said, US grads get $
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I don't get the problem with this outsourcing stuff. Outsourcing is a FACT OF LIFE PEOPLE. Does GM make every part that goes into a car? That would be STUPID. Tim Smith I'm going to patent thought. I have yet to see any prior art.
I think the better question is: does GM outsource their entire production capacity to Honda? Would that be a wise move? ------------------------------------------ The ousted but stubbornly non-dead leader reportedly released an audiotape this weekend, ending by calling on Iraqis to, quote, "resist the occupation in any way you can, from writing on walls, to boycotting, to demonstrating and taking up arms." adding, "you know, pretty much anything I used to kill you for." - The Daily Show
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Venkatraman wrote: the outsourcing war I don't understand how it's a war. Why can't people see India and the US IT industries as complementing/benefiting each other, instead of being rivals? IMO: The Indian IT industry makes more money by getting projects from the US. The US IT industry saves a lot more money than what India gets this way by outsourcing. This money can be utilized in whatever manner they choose, including creating more jobs. Where is the problem? Why are we rivals? I think the problem lies in the way we percieve things. If this madness continues, everyone stands to lose, except the commies. Regards, Rohit Sinha Browsy
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person. - Mother Teresa
Rohit Sinha wrote: Why can't people see India and the US IT industries as complementing/benefiting each other, instead of being rivals? The problem is that people's jobs and careers are on the line. Saying "we should be complementing/benefiting each other instead of being rivals" sounds a little bit like "let's play a friendly game of poker together - oh, and if you loose, you loose your job and health insurance. I hope you don't have a mortgage payment, car payment, or a family to take care of. And that degree you went to college for four years and spent $50,000 on will be worthless. Just a friendly game of poker." (I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just saying that when the stakes are that high, people's emotions are bound to get inflamed.) ------------------------------------------ The ousted but stubbornly non-dead leader reportedly released an audiotape this weekend, ending by calling on Iraqis to, quote, "resist the occupation in any way you can, from writing on walls, to boycotting, to demonstrating and taking up arms." adding, "you know, pretty much anything I used to kill you for." - The Daily Show