So Last night I got around to installing VS.NET....
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I asked the same thing a couple of years ago myself. So here is what I learned. When VS.Net first came out I prototyped a couple of app's and determined that they produced no real benifit. Since then I have discovered remoting, assembly's, side by side components, XML/XLS and a wealth of other features. I was incorrect in my initial judgement because I failed to understand how to use the tools(I was in to big a hurry). Lesson two. I make a meager(very) living doing contract work. By the time I realized the way to use .Net I was behind the curve and I cannot tell you how much that cost me in $ and time. From the programming you mentioned I beleive you will find the .Net framework very easy and powerful set of tools. I quietly read the C# forum on CP everyday trying to learn how to use these tools correctly. Read Heath Stewart's postings and I think you will see how in depth the laguages are. I hope it helps. I like the languages because I am finding work now and it has made the old DCOM/Client Server apps much better to work with. Hope I will be able to read all of your insights and tips in the C# forum soon. Kevin
Kinda shows the polar nature of this community when you and I post simultaneously and disagree with each other and yet we each get a five! :-D KevinMac wrote: it has made the old DCOM/Client Server apps This I'm going to have to take a serious look at. I support some stuff like this and expect to have some similar development for next year. If .NET will make it easier/better, then I'm all for using it. Thanks. Chris Meech It's much easier to get rich telling people what they want to hear. Chistopher Duncan I can't help getting older, but I refuse to grow up. Roger Wright I've been meaning to change my sig. Thanks! Alvaro Mendez We're more like a hobbiest in a Home Depot drooling at all the shiny power tools, rather than a craftsman that makes the chair to an exacting level of comfort by measuring the customer's butt. Marc Clifton
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So last night I didn't have anything better to do so I installed VS.NET and I'm still left wondering where to start. I have been programming in C++ and MFC for the last 10 years or so and I just can't see the usefullness of VS.NET. I have a couple of questions that I would like to propose to everyone: 1. Can anyone suggest a product/project that MC++ or C# would be a better alternative to than VC6/MFC? 2. What's the usefullness of C#? I've been trying to figure out a project that I would use this for and I still can't come up with one. 3. Where do I even begin? I'm trying to figure out if I want to move our products/components to the VS.NET environment and I'm not sure if we should or not. Everything that we've written is in either MFC applications, MFC OCX controls, win32 DLL's and libs. Any Suggestions? 4. Has anyone else encountered these questions? and how did you deal with them? Thanks, Scott
The only real benefit (if you can call it that) is that you can still do MFC stuff with the new "improved" MFC libraries. You don't have to use .NOT .NET, managed C++, or even C#. Of course, I haven't yet installed VS.NET, so I may be talkin' through my bunghole... ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
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Kinda shows the polar nature of this community when you and I post simultaneously and disagree with each other and yet we each get a five! :-D KevinMac wrote: it has made the old DCOM/Client Server apps This I'm going to have to take a serious look at. I support some stuff like this and expect to have some similar development for next year. If .NET will make it easier/better, then I'm all for using it. Thanks. Chris Meech It's much easier to get rich telling people what they want to hear. Chistopher Duncan I can't help getting older, but I refuse to grow up. Roger Wright I've been meaning to change my sig. Thanks! Alvaro Mendez We're more like a hobbiest in a Home Depot drooling at all the shiny power tools, rather than a craftsman that makes the chair to an exacting level of comfort by measuring the customer's butt. Marc Clifton
Chris Meech wrote: KevinMac wrote: it has made the old DCOM/Client Server apps This I'm going to have to take a serious look at. I support some stuff like this and expect to have some similar development for next year. If .NET will make it easier/better, then I'm all for using it. Thanks. Yeah, I did some DCOM apps in both VB6 and C++, and when I switched to .NET, I was really surprised at how much less complex it was, and how reliable. IJW! :-D
**"To know what is right and not do it is the worst cowardice." -- Confucius
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The only real benefit (if you can call it that) is that you can still do MFC stuff with the new "improved" MFC libraries. You don't have to use .NOT .NET, managed C++, or even C#. Of course, I haven't yet installed VS.NET, so I may be talkin' through my bunghole... ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
The benefits to using .net on the business and data tiers are significant. (once a developer is comfortable with using the framework) managed memory/objects .net remoting/web services simplified deployment (depending on level of interaction with enterprise services) Of course anything that can be done in .net can be done the preivous version(s) of C++ but leveraging the .net framework allows for (in many cases) significant reduction of code andy
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So last night I didn't have anything better to do so I installed VS.NET and I'm still left wondering where to start. I have been programming in C++ and MFC for the last 10 years or so and I just can't see the usefullness of VS.NET. I have a couple of questions that I would like to propose to everyone: 1. Can anyone suggest a product/project that MC++ or C# would be a better alternative to than VC6/MFC? 2. What's the usefullness of C#? I've been trying to figure out a project that I would use this for and I still can't come up with one. 3. Where do I even begin? I'm trying to figure out if I want to move our products/components to the VS.NET environment and I'm not sure if we should or not. Everything that we've written is in either MFC applications, MFC OCX controls, win32 DLL's and libs. Any Suggestions? 4. Has anyone else encountered these questions? and how did you deal with them? Thanks, Scott
For Web apps, ASP.NET and C# is a godsend. For desktop apps, C# and .NET just aren't there yet. WinForms are primitive at best, poorly supported by the framework and only really useable by purchasing expensive third party components. C# for desktop apps will get there, but I don't think that will happen until Longhorn is ready and the .NET framework is the defacto way of developing for the next generation of Windows. If you have existing legacy Windows desktop apps, you have to ask yourself what C# can do for you. I think like me you'll realise that rewriting in C# is an expensive waste of time. With the introduction of XAML in Longhorn, the current generation of Windows Forms technology will probably be rendered obsolete anyway. The most telling question to ask yourself before deciding on a C# rewrite of existing code is "Why didn't MS rewrite Office in C#?" To be honest, I think that C# is the future of business desktop application development, it just needs a few years to mature - learning it will serve you well, just don't gamble your business on it just yet. Michael Snow is lying on the ground, and in the air the sleigh bells sound, The frosted patterned window panes, it's British summer time again. No, it's not, It's Christmas - Santa Claus in on the Dole (Spitting Image 1986)
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So last night I didn't have anything better to do so I installed VS.NET and I'm still left wondering where to start. I have been programming in C++ and MFC for the last 10 years or so and I just can't see the usefullness of VS.NET. I have a couple of questions that I would like to propose to everyone: 1. Can anyone suggest a product/project that MC++ or C# would be a better alternative to than VC6/MFC? 2. What's the usefullness of C#? I've been trying to figure out a project that I would use this for and I still can't come up with one. 3. Where do I even begin? I'm trying to figure out if I want to move our products/components to the VS.NET environment and I'm not sure if we should or not. Everything that we've written is in either MFC applications, MFC OCX controls, win32 DLL's and libs. Any Suggestions? 4. Has anyone else encountered these questions? and how did you deal with them? Thanks, Scott
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So last night I didn't have anything better to do so I installed VS.NET and I'm still left wondering where to start. I have been programming in C++ and MFC for the last 10 years or so and I just can't see the usefullness of VS.NET. I have a couple of questions that I would like to propose to everyone: 1. Can anyone suggest a product/project that MC++ or C# would be a better alternative to than VC6/MFC? 2. What's the usefullness of C#? I've been trying to figure out a project that I would use this for and I still can't come up with one. 3. Where do I even begin? I'm trying to figure out if I want to move our products/components to the VS.NET environment and I'm not sure if we should or not. Everything that we've written is in either MFC applications, MFC OCX controls, win32 DLL's and libs. Any Suggestions? 4. Has anyone else encountered these questions? and how did you deal with them? Thanks, Scott
Since VS.NET 2002 was released, we've converted one major product to it from VC6, and developed two new ones from the same framework. The products are control software for large scale printing systems, and includes significant UI, COM/DCOM, TCP/IP sockets, services, and device drivers. This comes to several hundred source files, divided into dozens of projects, and includes over 500,000 lines of code. Our experiences include the following:
- Porting the code was simple. There were very few places where we had to change code to satisfy the compiler. Most of these were to address features that the compiler now identified as 'deprecated', or new diagnostics were issued.
- VS.NET includes the Platform SDK headers and libraries that were in effect at the time VS.NET was released. This means you no longer have to install the Platform SDK just to get headers that understand anything that's post-Windows 3.1.
- Compiler diagnostics are improved, both in problems identified and in reducing 'noise' in the error listing. The compiler seems to produce faster code when compiling for release, although I have no benchmarks to back that up.
- The new IDE took some getting used to. My first impression was that MS put the VC6 IDE guys in a room, bricked up the door, and handed the thing off to the VB guys. That said, after some experience, I prefer it to the VC6 IDE. There are too many features in the new IDE that are just damned nice.
- The resource editor in .NET 2002 is buggy, plain and simple. They obviously picked a spot where they could slack off before release, and that was it. The resource editor doesn't have any more features than the one in VC6, and doesn't work as well. It tends to crash the IDE at the drop of a hat. Any hat. Hats in Cleveland, for God's sake.
- The IDE does not include the same set of ActiveX controls that were supplied in VC6. If you're a heavy user of the MSFlexGrid, for example, this is going to make things annoying.
- If you've developed any significant macros for VC6, you're going to be pissed. The object model for VS.NET is completely different. You will have to rewrite any macros you use.
Hope this helps.
Software Zen:
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So last night I didn't have anything better to do so I installed VS.NET and I'm still left wondering where to start. I have been programming in C++ and MFC for the last 10 years or so and I just can't see the usefullness of VS.NET. I have a couple of questions that I would like to propose to everyone: 1. Can anyone suggest a product/project that MC++ or C# would be a better alternative to than VC6/MFC? 2. What's the usefullness of C#? I've been trying to figure out a project that I would use this for and I still can't come up with one. 3. Where do I even begin? I'm trying to figure out if I want to move our products/components to the VS.NET environment and I'm not sure if we should or not. Everything that we've written is in either MFC applications, MFC OCX controls, win32 DLL's and libs. Any Suggestions? 4. Has anyone else encountered these questions? and how did you deal with them? Thanks, Scott
Scott Everts wrote: 1. Can anyone suggest a product/project that MC++ or C# would be a better alternative to than VC6/MFC? There really isn't one on the desktop. Not better at any route. To put it another way, I would not rewrite any existing client only application JUST to move it to a newer tool set, etc. However, if I was in the place to rewrite an application for other reasons or were faced with extensive modifications and additions I would definately make the move, particularly if your development is "mixed". If you are using MFC using standard DLL's and COM DLL's also written in C++ I would stick with it. MFC is still a wonderful and powerful set of API's. However, if you're using a strong mix of VB and C++ which is pretty common (usually a VB6 front end using C++ COM objects and other DLL's) then that would also push me in favor of switching. The reason is that as long as all your code is "managed" (Managed C++, C#, VB.NET) there are no arcane types to deal with, no BSTR's (CURSE YOU TO H*LL BSTR DEVIL), no weird COM threading models to deal with (STA/MTA), registration, you name it... Also, the speed of development is AMAZING. ANYONE who can program in C++ can make very short work of the .NET Framework. It's simply the easiest set of tools I've ever used. Scott Everts wrote: 2. What's the usefullness of C#? I've been trying to figure out a project that I would use this for and I still can't come up with one. C# is nothing more than a replacement for Java OR a way of trying to get C++ programmers to migrate to a VB-ish language without making them too angry about that.... The thing to remember about the .NET Framework (and one of the "joys" of it) is that the system calls are now the same for everyone, available to everyone (regarding of language), and use the same parameters with all the exact same types. The only real difference between the languages (Managed C++, VB.NET, C#) is in the semantics. Scott Everts wrote: 3. Where do I even begin? I'm I've been a C++ COM/MFC developer for several years now and have always really hated VB. However, switching to .NET has been a far better experience then I first thought. Don't switch just to switch. If you are developing major new applications with a small timeline, consider it, but realize that you will have a learning curve and a good deal of money to retool.
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c'mon lauren.. you know you like it. in 2 months you'll be in love with it. in 6 more months, you'll be wondering when the next release is due. :rolleyes: -- 20 eyes in my head, they're all the same![^]
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c'mon lauren.. you know you like it. in 2 months you'll be in love with it. in 6 more months, you'll be wondering when the next release is due. :rolleyes: -- 20 eyes in my head, they're all the same![^]
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Scott Everts wrote: 1. Can anyone suggest a product/project that MC++ or C# would be a better alternative to than VC6/MFC? There really isn't one on the desktop. Not better at any route. To put it another way, I would not rewrite any existing client only application JUST to move it to a newer tool set, etc. However, if I was in the place to rewrite an application for other reasons or were faced with extensive modifications and additions I would definately make the move, particularly if your development is "mixed". If you are using MFC using standard DLL's and COM DLL's also written in C++ I would stick with it. MFC is still a wonderful and powerful set of API's. However, if you're using a strong mix of VB and C++ which is pretty common (usually a VB6 front end using C++ COM objects and other DLL's) then that would also push me in favor of switching. The reason is that as long as all your code is "managed" (Managed C++, C#, VB.NET) there are no arcane types to deal with, no BSTR's (CURSE YOU TO H*LL BSTR DEVIL), no weird COM threading models to deal with (STA/MTA), registration, you name it... Also, the speed of development is AMAZING. ANYONE who can program in C++ can make very short work of the .NET Framework. It's simply the easiest set of tools I've ever used. Scott Everts wrote: 2. What's the usefullness of C#? I've been trying to figure out a project that I would use this for and I still can't come up with one. C# is nothing more than a replacement for Java OR a way of trying to get C++ programmers to migrate to a VB-ish language without making them too angry about that.... The thing to remember about the .NET Framework (and one of the "joys" of it) is that the system calls are now the same for everyone, available to everyone (regarding of language), and use the same parameters with all the exact same types. The only real difference between the languages (Managed C++, VB.NET, C#) is in the semantics. Scott Everts wrote: 3. Where do I even begin? I'm I've been a C++ COM/MFC developer for several years now and have always really hated VB. However, switching to .NET has been a far better experience then I first thought. Don't switch just to switch. If you are developing major new applications with a small timeline, consider it, but realize that you will have a learning curve and a good deal of money to retool.
Matt Philmon wrote: There really isn't one on the desktop. Not better at any route. You're mostly correct - the lack of support for basic Common Controls functionality in WindowsForms is appalling. However, with the recent anouncements concerning XAML, Avalon, etc... I can see why MS didn't think they should spend too much time on it. In either case, I think they handled it poorly (if they knew they weren't going to beef it up anytime soon, and most likely would replace it soon, why didn't they just dump the sourcecode and let developers have at it? It would have made C#/WinForms a much more appealing target for migration of older apps). Matt Philmon wrote: C# is nothing more than a replacement for Java OR a way of trying to get C++ programmers to migrate to a VB-ish language without making them too angry about that.... C# is a java-ish language that was designed from the ground up to be the natural high-level .NET language. All of the others (VB.NET, MC++, Perl.NET, COBOL.NET, etc...) are hacks. MC++ is easily the most powerful of this list, however, because you can do all your C++ goodness in MC++ as long as non-System.Object derived classes are not exposed as managed members. E.g. it's perfectly fine to have a managed class that has a private member variable that's a class derived from a template class, but not ok to have one that's public or protected. Matt Philmon wrote: Don't switch just to switch. That's probably the best advice he can get - if there's no business case for it, don't risk your business :). New jumps like this are best learned in spare-time play, anyway. -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
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The only real benefit (if you can call it that) is that you can still do MFC stuff with the new "improved" MFC libraries. You don't have to use .NOT .NET, managed C++, or even C#. Of course, I haven't yet installed VS.NET, so I may be talkin' through my bunghole... ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
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c'mon lauren.. you know you like it. in 2 months you'll be in love with it. in 6 more months, you'll be wondering when the next release is due. :rolleyes: -- 20 eyes in my head, they're all the same![^]
Oh, how much i would give, to be able to go back in time, and read the comments written by VS4 users upgrading to VS6... :rolleyes:
Shog9 ---
You'd better turn back, before the frost sets in. These desert nights are for weathered men, The ones who've already given in...
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Oh, how much i would give, to be able to go back in time, and read the comments written by VS4 users upgrading to VS6... :rolleyes:
Shog9 ---
You'd better turn back, before the frost sets in. These desert nights are for weathered men, The ones who've already given in...
You don't get much closer to a real orgasm than that. ;) -- 20 eyes in my head, they're all the same![^]
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So last night I didn't have anything better to do so I installed VS.NET and I'm still left wondering where to start. I have been programming in C++ and MFC for the last 10 years or so and I just can't see the usefullness of VS.NET. I have a couple of questions that I would like to propose to everyone: 1. Can anyone suggest a product/project that MC++ or C# would be a better alternative to than VC6/MFC? 2. What's the usefullness of C#? I've been trying to figure out a project that I would use this for and I still can't come up with one. 3. Where do I even begin? I'm trying to figure out if I want to move our products/components to the VS.NET environment and I'm not sure if we should or not. Everything that we've written is in either MFC applications, MFC OCX controls, win32 DLL's and libs. Any Suggestions? 4. Has anyone else encountered these questions? and how did you deal with them? Thanks, Scott
Scott Everts wrote: 1. Can anyone suggest a product/project that MC++ or C# would be a better alternative to than VC6/MFC? 1) Web apps, other apps where need for rapid development and quick modifications trumps legacy codebase / speed concerns. I also put Java in this category. 2) See #1. 3) Determine first what class of problems might be solved by VS.NET. Then determine if you have these problems in any of your projects. 4) Sure. Still dealing...
Shog9 ---
You'd better turn back, before the frost sets in. These desert nights are for weathered men, The ones who've already given in...
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The only real benefit (if you can call it that) is that you can still do MFC stuff with the new "improved" MFC libraries. You don't have to use .NOT .NET, managed C++, or even C#. Of course, I haven't yet installed VS.NET, so I may be talkin' through my bunghole... ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
The (native) C++ compiler also has vastly improved template conformance. That is important if you use 3rd-party template libraries, such as alternate STLs. --Mike-- Ericahist | CP SearchBar v2.0.2 | Homepage | RightClick-Encrypt | 1ClickPicGrabber There is a saying in statistics that a million monkeys pounding on typewriters would eventually create a work of Shakespeare. Thanks to the Internet, we now know that this is not true.
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You don't get much closer to a real orgasm than that. ;) -- 20 eyes in my head, they're all the same![^]
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: You don't get much closer to a real orgasm than that Some of us do... Maybe it will be your turn one day.;P "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot." -
So last night I didn't have anything better to do so I installed VS.NET and I'm still left wondering where to start. I have been programming in C++ and MFC for the last 10 years or so and I just can't see the usefullness of VS.NET. I have a couple of questions that I would like to propose to everyone: 1. Can anyone suggest a product/project that MC++ or C# would be a better alternative to than VC6/MFC? 2. What's the usefullness of C#? I've been trying to figure out a project that I would use this for and I still can't come up with one. 3. Where do I even begin? I'm trying to figure out if I want to move our products/components to the VS.NET environment and I'm not sure if we should or not. Everything that we've written is in either MFC applications, MFC OCX controls, win32 DLL's and libs. Any Suggestions? 4. Has anyone else encountered these questions? and how did you deal with them? Thanks, Scott
Hey, its quite easy... - .NET is the enhancement of Win32, with win32 fading over time/still being supported. Expect new or crucial functionality (security is one) of a new MS OS (longhorn?) to only being exposed by a .NET API. Also, you do not want to hear your customers say "Hey you are not using unmanaged code, are you?" (just look how BAD that sounds. Unmanaged, chaotic, insecure, unprofessional). - You can say, I do not care! I only need what win32 has to offer (and I am sure MS will not break win32). But... Your customers will use the next Microsoft OS, which will be your development target. Now since that new feature you REALLY NEED will only be exposed via .NET API, you have to use the .NET API. - Since C# is considered sexy (philosophically, technically and whatevery) AND better integrated with the IDE AND really naturally fitting the .CLR AND someday probably as performant as C++ in the context of .NET AND the political way to do it you would be a masochist to use managed C++ exclusively. - Java introduced Hype into the programming world. Programmers are customers. They want to have a nice "philosophy" of programming, best object-oriented, etc. They can really get *fanatic* upon those things. So why not feed them what they need? PRO: Programming for simple/medium apps (up to 300 000loc) made easier. CON: I wonder how Oracle will implement a performant DB server ontop of .NET. Or photoshop? Of course, this will never be an argument for a programmer like me. CON: MS has the major control over application performance (just like those java guys improving the performance because they use the so-so-fast JRockit JVM from BEA). Bottom line: customers use new MS OS that is _REALLY_ good and cool, you program for that audience, you need API functionaly, this is provided by .NET, and you are a .NET programmer. Quite simple! ______________________________ Java: The living proof Moore's law won't solve all your problems
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: You don't get much closer to a real orgasm than that Some of us do... Maybe it will be your turn one day.;P "Your village called -
They're missing their idiot."There's a difference between getting close to a real orgasm and actually having an orgasm. Both means and goal differs. It may be subtle difference, but it's still a difference. ;P -- 20 eyes in my head, they're all the same![^]
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Hey, its quite easy... - .NET is the enhancement of Win32, with win32 fading over time/still being supported. Expect new or crucial functionality (security is one) of a new MS OS (longhorn?) to only being exposed by a .NET API. Also, you do not want to hear your customers say "Hey you are not using unmanaged code, are you?" (just look how BAD that sounds. Unmanaged, chaotic, insecure, unprofessional). - You can say, I do not care! I only need what win32 has to offer (and I am sure MS will not break win32). But... Your customers will use the next Microsoft OS, which will be your development target. Now since that new feature you REALLY NEED will only be exposed via .NET API, you have to use the .NET API. - Since C# is considered sexy (philosophically, technically and whatevery) AND better integrated with the IDE AND really naturally fitting the .CLR AND someday probably as performant as C++ in the context of .NET AND the political way to do it you would be a masochist to use managed C++ exclusively. - Java introduced Hype into the programming world. Programmers are customers. They want to have a nice "philosophy" of programming, best object-oriented, etc. They can really get *fanatic* upon those things. So why not feed them what they need? PRO: Programming for simple/medium apps (up to 300 000loc) made easier. CON: I wonder how Oracle will implement a performant DB server ontop of .NET. Or photoshop? Of course, this will never be an argument for a programmer like me. CON: MS has the major control over application performance (just like those java guys improving the performance because they use the so-so-fast JRockit JVM from BEA). Bottom line: customers use new MS OS that is _REALLY_ good and cool, you program for that audience, you need API functionaly, this is provided by .NET, and you are a .NET programmer. Quite simple! ______________________________ Java: The living proof Moore's law won't solve all your problems
Amanjit Gill wrote: Also, you do not want to hear your customers say "Hey you are not using unmanaged code, are you?" Depends on the project. Ok for new, small projects. What about application start-time? What about mission critical software? Impossible to tell TODAY because there is none in production yet. So please, don't make gratuitous claims, or make sure to narrow your experience to what is is limited to (no pun intended). Can you name a MS product made with .NET? I can name you one available on Jan next year, MS Reporting services, and god it's 100 times slower than today's mission critical report engines.