Microsoft's Ballmer wants to cut Programmer's Salaries...
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Unfortunately, salaries are going down, at least in places. In the last three years, my salary has increased only by about 3-4% total, and those were merit increases. Technology jobs in general in my area have not been seeing parity with the rise in the cost of living. The other process that's occurring is higher-end employees are being forced to move into lower paying positions as companies reorganize and 'tighten their belts'. Lower level employees are laid off, and upper level employees are told their positions have been reclassified, with a corresponding pay cut. The end result of these two phenomena is effectively a lowering of salaries. Now, that said, I have to count my blessings. My personal situation is good. My job is secure and is not subject to outsourcing (too much specialized expertise required). I'm an old fart (I've been programming professionally since 1980), and I hit the glass ceiling some time ago, so I'm used to not receiving large pay increments every year. I've done some consulting, and could probably make a living at it if I needed to. The only reason I haven't is that I like the security of a 9-5 position with a paycheck that appears like clockwork every two weeks.
Software Zen:
delete this;I am staying with the security of a large firm too, but in a specialist area where its more difficult for other firms to compete (I develop functional test for a range of special products). Its a case of stop moving and end up in a corner. Elaine :rose: The tigress is here :-D
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Typically, people in charge of companies, bankers etc.. Look at who supplies finance for many foreign copmanies who compete with US companies. Yes, US banks. Also, remember when HP had a 10% paycut ? Borad memebers didn't take a cut. The tigress is here :-D
Maybe I'm missing something here and perhaps this comment is naïve in someway but wouldn't the logical thing to do be: Everyone (inc. the board members) take a pay cut. If the company gets back on track then back pay can be paid to the board members (I really don't think many companies will do that for all employees) for doing their job properly. If the company doesn't get back on track then the board members lose out. Thus this creates an incentive for the board members to get their finger out and put the company back on track. So, if the directors do their job properly they have not lost out. --Colin Mackay--
"In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the stream always wins - not through strength but perseverance." (H. Jackson Brown) Enumerators in .NET: See how to customise foreach loops with C#
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The same thing will happen with China I suspect. The die hard commies in China have tasted the sweet taste of capitalism. A more worrying situation is when India and China starts to produce their own software to compete with the rest of the world. There are more potential IT workers in China than there is in Europe and the US combined. Add India ontop of that. 50-75 years from now, I'm quite positive that a "world union" will begin to form. -- Watcha' gonna do, when Hulkamania runs wild on you!?
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I'm quite positive that a "world union" will begin to form. Oh geeeze now that really makes me feel better... IMHO unions are one of the factors responsible for other economic collapses (IE: Steel, Auto…) Unions do the bad things like set wages based upon years of service (not productivity, intelligence or work ethic) mandate that employees become members of the union to be allowed to work in certain industries, etc… All crap.
Paul Watson wrote: "At the end of the day it is what you produce that counts, not how many doctorates you have on the wall." George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I'm quite positive that a "world union" will begin to form. Oh geeeze now that really makes me feel better... IMHO unions are one of the factors responsible for other economic collapses (IE: Steel, Auto…) Unions do the bad things like set wages based upon years of service (not productivity, intelligence or work ethic) mandate that employees become members of the union to be allowed to work in certain industries, etc… All crap.
Paul Watson wrote: "At the end of the day it is what you produce that counts, not how many doctorates you have on the wall." George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
I think we're talking about different unions. :) -- Watcha' gonna do, when Hulkamania runs wild on you!?
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I think we're talking about different unions. :) -- Watcha' gonna do, when Hulkamania runs wild on you!?
There's a dream I feel, So rare so real, All the world in union, The world as one Gathering together One mind one heart Every creed, every colour, Once joined, never apart. Searching for the best in me I will find what I can be If I win lose or draw, There's a winner in us all, It's the world in union, the world as one, As we climb to reach our destiny A new age has begun, We face high mountains, Must cross rough seas, we must take our place in history, and live with dignity. Just to be the best I can, Sets the goal of every man, If I win lose or draw, It's a victory for us all. It's the world in union, the world as one, As we climb to reach our destiny A new age has begun, It's the world in union, A new age has begun. :-D --Colin Mackay--
"In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the stream always wins - not through strength but perseverance." (H. Jackson Brown) Enumerators in .NET: See how to customise foreach loops with C#
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There's a dream I feel, So rare so real, All the world in union, The world as one Gathering together One mind one heart Every creed, every colour, Once joined, never apart. Searching for the best in me I will find what I can be If I win lose or draw, There's a winner in us all, It's the world in union, the world as one, As we climb to reach our destiny A new age has begun, We face high mountains, Must cross rough seas, we must take our place in history, and live with dignity. Just to be the best I can, Sets the goal of every man, If I win lose or draw, It's a victory for us all. It's the world in union, the world as one, As we climb to reach our destiny A new age has begun, It's the world in union, A new age has begun. :-D --Colin Mackay--
"In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the stream always wins - not through strength but perseverance." (H. Jackson Brown) Enumerators in .NET: See how to customise foreach loops with C#
It has a John Lennon ring to it, but it's not his. Is it? -- Watcha' gonna do, when Hulkamania runs wild on you!?
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It has a John Lennon ring to it, but it's not his. Is it? -- Watcha' gonna do, when Hulkamania runs wild on you!?
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: It has a John Lennon ring to it, but it's not his. Is it? I vow thee to my music[^] No Australian can call him arrogant. No sneering headline can scoff: 'Is that all you've got?' No, Charlie Skarbek is an unquestionable English World Cup success. The music producer once carved a niche for himself making pop songs from classical melodies. Then, 12 years ago, the World Cup came to ITV and Skarbek sent in a rendition of a famous Holst melody underlaid with a heavy beat. The broadcasters promptly asked him to write some new words, and he happily came up with World in Union . Sung by Kiri Te Kanawa, it went to number one. Skarbek, a long-term rugby fan, says: 'I was always totally plugged in to this music and knew it was just perfect for rugby: bombastic but modular enough to be reflective as well as large.' Now it's the official tournament anthem, although Skarbek has control of its use elsewhere. Every four years he's heavily, and happily, involved in elaborate re- workings. And what does he think each time he switches on and hears those magic chords swell out? 'It's not loud enough!' --Colin Mackay--
"In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the stream always wins - not through strength but perseverance." (H. Jackson Brown) Enumerators in .NET: See how to customise foreach loops with C#
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Maybe I'm missing something here and perhaps this comment is naïve in someway but wouldn't the logical thing to do be: Everyone (inc. the board members) take a pay cut. If the company gets back on track then back pay can be paid to the board members (I really don't think many companies will do that for all employees) for doing their job properly. If the company doesn't get back on track then the board members lose out. Thus this creates an incentive for the board members to get their finger out and put the company back on track. So, if the directors do their job properly they have not lost out. --Colin Mackay--
"In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the stream always wins - not through strength but perseverance." (H. Jackson Brown) Enumerators in .NET: See how to customise foreach loops with C#
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: It has a John Lennon ring to it, but it's not his. Is it? I vow thee to my music[^] No Australian can call him arrogant. No sneering headline can scoff: 'Is that all you've got?' No, Charlie Skarbek is an unquestionable English World Cup success. The music producer once carved a niche for himself making pop songs from classical melodies. Then, 12 years ago, the World Cup came to ITV and Skarbek sent in a rendition of a famous Holst melody underlaid with a heavy beat. The broadcasters promptly asked him to write some new words, and he happily came up with World in Union . Sung by Kiri Te Kanawa, it went to number one. Skarbek, a long-term rugby fan, says: 'I was always totally plugged in to this music and knew it was just perfect for rugby: bombastic but modular enough to be reflective as well as large.' Now it's the official tournament anthem, although Skarbek has control of its use elsewhere. Every four years he's heavily, and happily, involved in elaborate re- workings. And what does he think each time he switches on and hears those magic chords swell out? 'It's not loud enough!' --Colin Mackay--
"In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the stream always wins - not through strength but perseverance." (H. Jackson Brown) Enumerators in .NET: See how to customise foreach loops with C#
Rugby. :doh: -- Watcha' gonna do, when Hulkamania runs wild on you!?
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Colin Angus Mackay wrote: wouldn't the logical thing to do be: Everyone (inc. the board members) take a pay cut. :eek: Commie!! ;P:-D
LunaticFringe wrote: Commie!! :wtf: That has to be the last thing anyone has ever accused me of. :eek: If you continue reading my previous post I say that the Board Members get their back pay if they manage to pull the company out of its bad patch. Although thinking about it. I am sure that many directors who are well connected enough will just jump ship to a batter paid job elsewhere anyway. --Colin Mackay--
"In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the stream always wins - not through strength but perseverance." (H. Jackson Brown) Enumerators in .NET: See how to customise foreach loops with C#
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Maybe I'm missing something here and perhaps this comment is naïve in someway but wouldn't the logical thing to do be: Everyone (inc. the board members) take a pay cut. If the company gets back on track then back pay can be paid to the board members (I really don't think many companies will do that for all employees) for doing their job properly. If the company doesn't get back on track then the board members lose out. Thus this creates an incentive for the board members to get their finger out and put the company back on track. So, if the directors do their job properly they have not lost out. --Colin Mackay--
"In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the stream always wins - not through strength but perseverance." (H. Jackson Brown) Enumerators in .NET: See how to customise foreach loops with C#
It's too bad that it really doesn't work that way. The workers are the first to get wacked and the managers are the last. Even when the company is SOOO Top heavy that everyone sees it. But big companies have a good-ole-boy network going on and they don't want to upset thier lunch budies when times get rough. The parent company I work for hasn't had a decent order in 3 years. They have lived off of us because we were the only profitable portion of the company. (Part of the reason is lower overhead and cheaper wages) But two weeks before christmas they finally started waking managers but that was after 70% of the real work force was eliminated. This does make some sense in a way because you need a management structure in place to hire new (cheaper) labor when the orders start coming in. But IMHO it really is no way to run a business especially a Fortune 1000 comapny. Jeff Patterson Programmers speak in Code. http://www.anti-dmca.org[^]
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I have always wanted to be cheap labor competing against China and India just to see how low wages can go. In fact I think I will sell my house move into a box to give me that extra edge. Perhaps if I sell off all of my Windows stuff and get the cheap open source gear I can be affordable enough to work here in the US.
I've been thinking about moving to Mexico and getting a job or maybe I could open an American food restraunt in China? :rolleyes: :-D Jeff Patterson Programmers speak in Code. http://www.anti-dmca.org[^]
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I've been thinking about moving to Mexico and getting a job or maybe I could open an American food restraunt in China? :rolleyes: :-D Jeff Patterson Programmers speak in Code. http://www.anti-dmca.org[^]
Jeff Patterson wrote: maybe I could open an American food restraunt in China? Now, that's an idea! Jeremy Falcon
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Maybe I'm missing something here and perhaps this comment is naïve in someway but wouldn't the logical thing to do be: Everyone (inc. the board members) take a pay cut. If the company gets back on track then back pay can be paid to the board members (I really don't think many companies will do that for all employees) for doing their job properly. If the company doesn't get back on track then the board members lose out. Thus this creates an incentive for the board members to get their finger out and put the company back on track. So, if the directors do their job properly they have not lost out. --Colin Mackay--
"In the confrontation between the stream and the rock, the stream always wins - not through strength but perseverance." (H. Jackson Brown) Enumerators in .NET: See how to customise foreach loops with C#
I agree with you about how it should be, but its the board members who decide this so... Elaine (cynical fluffy tigress) The tigress is here :-D
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Cut US programmer's salaries to combat outsourcing: http://www.thepost.ie/web/Sitemap/1.2did-445480235-pageUrl--2FBusiness-2FComment-and-Analysis.asp[^] Steven J. Ackerman, Consultant ACS, Sarasota, FL http://www.acscontrol.com steve@acscontrol.com
Ever notice how some companies are against telecommuting, but will then turn around and say that outsourcing is the way to go? :doh: -=- James (Sonork:100.21837) [Tip for SUV winter driving survival: "Professional Driver on Closed Course" does not mean "your Dumb Ass on a Public Road"!]
[Get Delete FXP Files Now!] -
Ever notice how some companies are against telecommuting, but will then turn around and say that outsourcing is the way to go? :doh: -=- James (Sonork:100.21837) [Tip for SUV winter driving survival: "Professional Driver on Closed Course" does not mean "your Dumb Ass on a Public Road"!]
[Get Delete FXP Files Now!]Yes, they start telepathing at IBM. I heard they screw up on the reconstruction sequence a lot though. norm