Am I the only one upset about this US fingerprinting business???
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DavidCrow wrote: It all depends on what you do within your country. There are many places/processes in the U.S. that require fingerprinting. With some jobs, you must have a fingerprint on file. To get a firearm permit, you must have a fingerprint on file. I think this is what makes the difference and what makes me feel uncomfortable about it. There may be some special places / institutions here that require fingerprints on file, but I am not aware of any other than the crime register :) Rado
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Radoslav Bielik wrote: There may be some special places / institutions here that require fingerprints on file, but I am not aware of any other than the crime register When my wife and I adopted our son, we had to give fingerprints. I guess to show we were not pedophiles or something. Anyway, it was no big deal... And, if I'm not mistaken, this new process of fingerprinting foreigners applies only to people entering the country on work or education visas, not to people simply coming here for a vacation. We already ask for ID to issue visas, this just makes it simpler to assure ourselves that the person left when they were supposed to, something the current paper-based process does not facilitate. 'til next we type... HAVE FUN!! -- Jesse
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I've read all the comments posted but I'd like to respond to yours since its so nicely written. Matt Gullett wrote: I do not see how asking someone to provide identification (you already must have a passport), particularly a non-citizen, is treating them like a criminal I was specifically talking about finger prints. I don't mind being identified, but taking my prints is a little more than identifying me. Just the other day I read an interesting article on Wired that had the following point: Identification procedures should just be about that; identifying. If you take my print, that is more than just identifying me. I have never broken the law nor do I intend to, but this bothers me. Because... Matt Gullett wrote: The concept that the government is out-to-get-us, in my opinion is mostly hysteria IMO, you are right. At least for now and for the US. But I look at other countries with less-than-reputable civil liberty records (for example one large far east country..). If I were a US citizen (which I am not) I would want to do everything in my power to ensure the US never gets there. That's what the "right to bare arms" was all about, wasn't it? I'd like to say that I have given my fingerprints willingly multiple times in the past. I find it difficult to articulate why I think those times were different than what we're talking about now (it's one of those classical can't define it, but know it when I see it things). I'll get it a shot anyway: Hypothetically, if you were applying for security clearance, you would be asked for fingerprints. The request is due to an uncommon request on your part. Flying to another country, especially in this century is not an uncommon thing. Most people do it, and quite frequently. Targeting "all travellers", therefore, in my mind, equates to targeting "everybody". And herein lies my problem. In reading some of the replies (not yours Matt, but I'm sure others are reading), I got the "You're not a US citizen, you have no civil liberties here, if you don't like it don't come" vibe. I think, again, that misses the point. Maybe the chioce of the term "civil liberties" wasn't exactly accurate or to the point. I'm just trying to raise an issue of a government starting to collect huge amounts of database about people in a systematic, centralized way. I personally see a danger in that. If you don't, that is your right. --- Grab WndTabs from http://www.wndtabs
I'm with you in that I find this whole thing disturbing but we seem to be in the minority. Maybe because there is a greater percentage of Americans here, perhaps? I think the thing that bugs me the most about this is that my fingerprints will be on file, indefinitely. Ask the Americans here how they feel about something like that when they visit Europe or Canada. Or even at home in the US. After all, if they have nothing to hide, what's the problem? And what's to stop governments exchanging their databases? So an American visiting London could find his fingerprints ending up in US-controlled databases, something that he would scream bloody murder about if it happened at home. So you're right, collecting this kind of information is open to abuse and if it is possible to abuse something, it will be :-(
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I'm sure you've all heard about the new "US Visit" thingy (dhs.gov[^]) where they fingerprint every foreign national that comes into the US. Maybe its government propaganda but every article I read is all full of people saying "yeah; extra security is important blah blah blah" and not a single person shouting out in cry for personal privacy. Even my wife can't understand why I'm upset. The usual US lobby groups probably won't nudge a finger since US citizens aren't being fingerprinted. I find this personally revolting. There's no reason in the world I should be treated like a criminal (or even potential criminal) just because I want to enter the states! Personally I'm cancelling a trip there and won't be going down south until I get my Canadian passport (as Canadians a exempt from all this BS). Unfortunately, how many people can say they have a Canadian passport waiting for them around the curve? -Oz --- Grab WndTabs from http://www.wndtabs.com to make your VC6 experience that much more comfortable...
I wouldn't be upset with added security measures if they were explained in a way that demonstrates a clear correlation between the measure in place and the perceived threat, as well as an explanation as to why that specific measure was deemed the best possible way of addressing that threat. cheers, Chris Maunder
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There are lots of people in this country upset about security measures such as this. I suspect that fingerprinting foreign travelers will be quietly phased out once it proves to be worthless and a huge headache. Face recognition software in airports has already been tried and scrapped.
Stuart van Weele wrote: I suspect that fingerprinting foreign travelers will be quietly phased out once it proves to be worthless and a huge headache. I must admit I do wonder about this. It's all very well collecting lots of data, but if the mechanisms aren't in place to use that data effectively, they may as well not have bothered in the first place. Stuart van Weele wrote: Face recognition software in airports has already been tried and scrapped. Really? Now that is interesting...I must admit I did wonder how biometrics would cope with the facial work I'm having done shortly...:rolleyes: Anna :rose: Homepage | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work. Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Visual C++ Add-In
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I'm sure you've all heard about the new "US Visit" thingy (dhs.gov[^]) where they fingerprint every foreign national that comes into the US. Maybe its government propaganda but every article I read is all full of people saying "yeah; extra security is important blah blah blah" and not a single person shouting out in cry for personal privacy. Even my wife can't understand why I'm upset. The usual US lobby groups probably won't nudge a finger since US citizens aren't being fingerprinted. I find this personally revolting. There's no reason in the world I should be treated like a criminal (or even potential criminal) just because I want to enter the states! Personally I'm cancelling a trip there and won't be going down south until I get my Canadian passport (as Canadians a exempt from all this BS). Unfortunately, how many people can say they have a Canadian passport waiting for them around the curve? -Oz --- Grab WndTabs from http://www.wndtabs.com to make your VC6 experience that much more comfortable...
Oz Solomonovich wrote: I find this personally revolting. There's no reason in the world I should be treated like a criminal (or even potential criminal) just because I want to enter the states! Absolutely. You shouldn't be fingerprinted unless you try to act on your desires. On the other hand, you can just stay home. We're doing fine over here, presumably you're doing fine over there. Good luck! Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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I'm sure you've all heard about the new "US Visit" thingy (dhs.gov[^]) where they fingerprint every foreign national that comes into the US. Maybe its government propaganda but every article I read is all full of people saying "yeah; extra security is important blah blah blah" and not a single person shouting out in cry for personal privacy. Even my wife can't understand why I'm upset. The usual US lobby groups probably won't nudge a finger since US citizens aren't being fingerprinted. I find this personally revolting. There's no reason in the world I should be treated like a criminal (or even potential criminal) just because I want to enter the states! Personally I'm cancelling a trip there and won't be going down south until I get my Canadian passport (as Canadians a exempt from all this BS). Unfortunately, how many people can say they have a Canadian passport waiting for them around the curve? -Oz --- Grab WndTabs from http://www.wndtabs.com to make your VC6 experience that much more comfortable...
I'm in the mood for a big fat "1"... What will they do for amputees? Toe print? Forehead print?
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My problem with fingerprints is that I leave them everywhere I go. It's just a matter of my physiology... ;P Personally, I'd be happy to give a retina scan. At least I have control over that. It can be used to identify me, but I control who has access to it. I'm sure that its every bit as accurate as a fingerprint. Matt Gullett wrote: If your concern is that they are being automatically used to search criminal records, etc, I would say that most of us have nothing to fear Again, I'm against the stance of "If you have nothing to hide, let me search you". I'm no philosopher nor am I a sociologist or polition, but I can easily see the wrong in the state having too many powers. I just can't argue it that well as the aformentioned types. Last year there was a series of rapes in a certain part of Toronto. If what you are saying is right (i.e. you shouldn't have a problem if you have nothing to hide), then perhaps the police should have stopped every man living in a 5 mile radius and asked for a DNA sample? That just seems wrong to me. --- Grab WndTabs from http://www.wndtabs.com to make your VC6 experience that much more comfortable...
How do you feel about your picture being taken by ATM cameras? There have been many cases where crimes occured at or around ATMs and the policed reviewed the tapes and found the criminal. Oz Solomonovich wrote: then perhaps the police should have stopped every man living in a 5 mile radius and asked for a DNA sample? I would say that this is an entirely different thing. This is a random and unexpected search. Entering the country has always required identification, we're not really adding anything here. I don't see how this is treating someone as a criminal, ie. asking for identification in a verifiable/secure form. (I say secure in that fingerprints are more secure than a passport.) Your picture is undoubtedly captured by one or many security cameras in the airport, is this an invasion? What if the tapes are kept forever? Oz Solomonovich wrote: If you have nothing to hide, let me search you This is not what I said or meant. We're not talking about searching you here, we're talking about verifying your identity and ensuring that you qualify for entrance into the country. This is also not about random/unexpected searches, this is an established rule for entrance into the country, which I would argue, is a major event. Maybe we could operate on a complete honor system here, but I don't see how. I don't want to offend anyone and I truly am trying to see your POV, but I am struggling. I have no problem giving my fingerprint to another country when I enter it. I plan on travelling to Italy and Germany in the summer and I really don't see a problem with it. I feel that the real issue here is that governments (and other entities) are gaining greater access to our personal histories, not because they could not do it before, but because now it can be done almost instantly. It seems as if our entire life is open to anyone who has a computer and some form of unique identification (whether it be passport #, ssn, fingerprint, etc.) We sacrifice our privacy on a daily basis by using credit cards, getting cash at an ATM, etc. It seems like everyone wants to know everything about us and there is nothing truly private. To a large degree, this is true. For better or worse, we live in an age when information is readily available to anyone. It is almost impossible to keep anything private. As an example, a few months ago I received a speeding ticket. Within 1 week, I received letters from 4 different lawyers wanting to offer their servi
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I'm sure you've all heard about the new "US Visit" thingy (dhs.gov[^]) where they fingerprint every foreign national that comes into the US. Maybe its government propaganda but every article I read is all full of people saying "yeah; extra security is important blah blah blah" and not a single person shouting out in cry for personal privacy. Even my wife can't understand why I'm upset. The usual US lobby groups probably won't nudge a finger since US citizens aren't being fingerprinted. I find this personally revolting. There's no reason in the world I should be treated like a criminal (or even potential criminal) just because I want to enter the states! Personally I'm cancelling a trip there and won't be going down south until I get my Canadian passport (as Canadians a exempt from all this BS). Unfortunately, how many people can say they have a Canadian passport waiting for them around the curve? -Oz --- Grab WndTabs from http://www.wndtabs.com to make your VC6 experience that much more comfortable...
The US is screwed - bail out while you can ;P Seriously - there must be a good reason why so many people hate the US! Maybe fixng that problem would increase security a bit. Joel Holdsworth
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I'm sure you've all heard about the new "US Visit" thingy (dhs.gov[^]) where they fingerprint every foreign national that comes into the US. Maybe its government propaganda but every article I read is all full of people saying "yeah; extra security is important blah blah blah" and not a single person shouting out in cry for personal privacy. Even my wife can't understand why I'm upset. The usual US lobby groups probably won't nudge a finger since US citizens aren't being fingerprinted. I find this personally revolting. There's no reason in the world I should be treated like a criminal (or even potential criminal) just because I want to enter the states! Personally I'm cancelling a trip there and won't be going down south until I get my Canadian passport (as Canadians a exempt from all this BS). Unfortunately, how many people can say they have a Canadian passport waiting for them around the curve? -Oz --- Grab WndTabs from http://www.wndtabs.com to make your VC6 experience that much more comfortable...
What's next? Brain Scan?? X| It creates another headache for visitors to USA. Earlier rule was for 25 Islamic countries and that too for males from age 15 to 40. But Pakistan (ally to US in War on Terrorism :~ ) and other middle east countries opposed to that rule. Actually it's double standards. Why visa exempt or finger prints/photo exempt for those 28 countries? I read somewhere that the Florida tourism industry vehemently opposed to the bill which proposed every citizen in the world would need visa to enter USA. I guess they will change the rules again once Al-Queda members who are citizens from one of those 28 countries attack US :mad:
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How do you feel about your picture being taken by ATM cameras? There have been many cases where crimes occured at or around ATMs and the policed reviewed the tapes and found the criminal. Oz Solomonovich wrote: then perhaps the police should have stopped every man living in a 5 mile radius and asked for a DNA sample? I would say that this is an entirely different thing. This is a random and unexpected search. Entering the country has always required identification, we're not really adding anything here. I don't see how this is treating someone as a criminal, ie. asking for identification in a verifiable/secure form. (I say secure in that fingerprints are more secure than a passport.) Your picture is undoubtedly captured by one or many security cameras in the airport, is this an invasion? What if the tapes are kept forever? Oz Solomonovich wrote: If you have nothing to hide, let me search you This is not what I said or meant. We're not talking about searching you here, we're talking about verifying your identity and ensuring that you qualify for entrance into the country. This is also not about random/unexpected searches, this is an established rule for entrance into the country, which I would argue, is a major event. Maybe we could operate on a complete honor system here, but I don't see how. I don't want to offend anyone and I truly am trying to see your POV, but I am struggling. I have no problem giving my fingerprint to another country when I enter it. I plan on travelling to Italy and Germany in the summer and I really don't see a problem with it. I feel that the real issue here is that governments (and other entities) are gaining greater access to our personal histories, not because they could not do it before, but because now it can be done almost instantly. It seems as if our entire life is open to anyone who has a computer and some form of unique identification (whether it be passport #, ssn, fingerprint, etc.) We sacrifice our privacy on a daily basis by using credit cards, getting cash at an ATM, etc. It seems like everyone wants to know everything about us and there is nothing truly private. To a large degree, this is true. For better or worse, we live in an age when information is readily available to anyone. It is almost impossible to keep anything private. As an example, a few months ago I received a speeding ticket. Within 1 week, I received letters from 4 different lawyers wanting to offer their servi
Matt Gullett wrote: I don't see how this is treating someone as a criminal, ie. asking for identification in a verifiable/secure form Matt, I am not against identification. However, I am against fingerprinting specifically. Finger prints (like DNA sampling) is different from other passive identifiaction schemes in that you leave a fingerprint trail wherever you go. I believe that the US has a right to identify me (which I why I quietly stood in line for 10 hours to get a Visa), but when they have my prints, I believe I loose too much control. Again, I restate my approval of iris scanning. Unlike fingerprinting, you have full control over who gets to see the scan and you don't leave it around everywhere you go. I said that the act of fingerprinting make me feel like I'm in the same camp as criminals. Why? Because only criminals a fingerprinted (or at least people with direct suspicion of a crime). If it was a social norm that every person was finger printed (which I hope will never be), I would probably feel differently. --- Grab WndTabs from http://www.wndtabs.com to make your VC6 experience that much more comfortable...
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I'm sure you've all heard about the new "US Visit" thingy (dhs.gov[^]) where they fingerprint every foreign national that comes into the US. Maybe its government propaganda but every article I read is all full of people saying "yeah; extra security is important blah blah blah" and not a single person shouting out in cry for personal privacy. Even my wife can't understand why I'm upset. The usual US lobby groups probably won't nudge a finger since US citizens aren't being fingerprinted. I find this personally revolting. There's no reason in the world I should be treated like a criminal (or even potential criminal) just because I want to enter the states! Personally I'm cancelling a trip there and won't be going down south until I get my Canadian passport (as Canadians a exempt from all this BS). Unfortunately, how many people can say they have a Canadian passport waiting for them around the curve? -Oz --- Grab WndTabs from http://www.wndtabs.com to make your VC6 experience that much more comfortable...
However, they're not fingerprinting those that don't need visa's to get into the US, eg Kiwis, Ozzies etc (though they probably should fingerprint the ozzies) Bryce --- Publitor, making Pubmed easy. http://www.sohocode.com/publitor
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They also have a picture. Where's the justification for taking another one? If you don't look like that anymore, then sure - take another. Keeping a passport current is a reasonable requirement, and those who don't can reasonably be delayed to take a file picture. But I don't see that this process in any clear way improves our security. The lack of a consistent recording of who enters and who leaves is a systemic flaw in our border controls, but there are other ways to repair that problem short of delaying travellers unnecessarily. This step does nothing to repair the fundamental flaw. "Another day done - All targets met; all systems fully operational; all customers satisfied; all staff keen and well motivated; all pigs fed and ready to fly" - Jennie A.
Roger Wright wrote: The lack of a consistent recording of who enters and who leaves is a systemic flaw in our border controls, Agreed so it should be all (crew included) and then more than just major air terminals. Roger Wright wrote: but there are other ways to repair that problem short of delaying travellers unnecessarily. Excuse me. I believe we are talking about 15 seconds here. The spiel about have you accepted anything from strangers is much longer. Then again I am assuming it will not take long to place your finger at the right location. "Don't be so anti-american, would you? KaЯl (to Paul Watson on Baseball Bats) 26 Nov '03 "
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I'm sure you've all heard about the new "US Visit" thingy (dhs.gov[^]) where they fingerprint every foreign national that comes into the US. Maybe its government propaganda but every article I read is all full of people saying "yeah; extra security is important blah blah blah" and not a single person shouting out in cry for personal privacy. Even my wife can't understand why I'm upset. The usual US lobby groups probably won't nudge a finger since US citizens aren't being fingerprinted. I find this personally revolting. There's no reason in the world I should be treated like a criminal (or even potential criminal) just because I want to enter the states! Personally I'm cancelling a trip there and won't be going down south until I get my Canadian passport (as Canadians a exempt from all this BS). Unfortunately, how many people can say they have a Canadian passport waiting for them around the curve? -Oz --- Grab WndTabs from http://www.wndtabs.com to make your VC6 experience that much more comfortable...
Oz Solomonovich wrote: I find this personally revolting. There's no reason in the world I should be treated like a criminal (or even potential criminal) just because I want to enter the states! There's no reason to enter the US in the first place if you don't want to follow the rules.
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Mazdak wrote: Who cares,let them get our fingerprints. We already got them off your luggage.:cool: "Another day done - All targets met; all systems fully operational; all customers satisfied; all staff keen and well motivated; all pigs fed and ready to fly" - Jennie A.
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I think they scan your footprints when they make you walk through the airport with your shoes off. Either that, or the people who work security there really like the smell of sweaty feet. "Another day done - All targets met; all systems fully operational; all customers satisfied; all staff keen and well motivated; all pigs fed and ready to fly" - Jennie A.
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I think they scan your footprints when they make you walk through the airport with your shoes off. Either that, or the people who work security there really like the smell of sweaty feet. "Another day done - All targets met; all systems fully operational; all customers satisfied; all staff keen and well motivated; all pigs fed and ready to fly" - Jennie A.
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Do you have a better solution? Remember what the goal is. If your solution puts convenience above anything else, it is potentially flawed. The same folks that are screaming about being inconvenienced are the very same folks that are quickest to scream about bad things happening to our country because such-and-such process was not put in place. I have absolutely no problem with foreigners being IDd and/or fingerprinted before entering my country. I don't care if it does cost them an extra hour or so at the border. As has already been pointed out, having access to our country is not a right, and thus certain prices must be paid.
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DavidCrow wrote: I have absolutely no problem with foreigners being IDd and/or fingerprinted before entering my country. I don't care if it does cost them an extra hour or so at the border. As has already been pointed out, having access to our country is not a right, and thus certain prices must be paid. This is rapidly descending into Soapbox territory but what the hell... So why stop at foreigners? It's not a great leap to start fingerprinting anyone and everyone. What?! You're soft on American drug trafficers and fugitives and other Bad People?! Or is it only them stinking foreigners who deserve such treatment? Thin edge of the wedge.
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Oz Solomonovich wrote: Citing 9/11 as a reason to take away basic civil liberties is IMO a huge problem. So, just why do you believe one of your basic civil liberties is to enter the USA without permitting a verifiable identification? It would be a valid complaint if you had to scale a wall and risk being shot for leaving but you have absolutely no say in what our country might demand for entry. As far as I am concerned your civil rights exist within the boundaries of your country on the basis granted by your civil laws. Oz Solomonovich wrote: I understand the need to balance privacy and national security, but where is the limit? Good question, I don't think we've hit that limit just yet. Mike "liberals are being driven crazy by the fact that Bush is so popular with Americans, and thus by the realization that anyone to the left of center is utterly marginal." JAMES TRAUB NY Times Loyal member of the vast right wing conspiracy **"could a country (USA) letting one sixth of its population under the level of powerty be considered as civilized?"**KaЯl (France let 15,000 elderly die from summer heat)