Am I the only one upset about this US fingerprinting business???
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There are lots of people in this country upset about security measures such as this. I suspect that fingerprinting foreign travelers will be quietly phased out once it proves to be worthless and a huge headache. Face recognition software in airports has already been tried and scrapped.
Stuart van Weele wrote: I suspect that fingerprinting foreign travelers will be quietly phased out once it proves to be worthless and a huge headache. I must admit I do wonder about this. It's all very well collecting lots of data, but if the mechanisms aren't in place to use that data effectively, they may as well not have bothered in the first place. Stuart van Weele wrote: Face recognition software in airports has already been tried and scrapped. Really? Now that is interesting...I must admit I did wonder how biometrics would cope with the facial work I'm having done shortly...:rolleyes: Anna :rose: Homepage | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work. Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Visual C++ Add-In
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I'm sure you've all heard about the new "US Visit" thingy (dhs.gov[^]) where they fingerprint every foreign national that comes into the US. Maybe its government propaganda but every article I read is all full of people saying "yeah; extra security is important blah blah blah" and not a single person shouting out in cry for personal privacy. Even my wife can't understand why I'm upset. The usual US lobby groups probably won't nudge a finger since US citizens aren't being fingerprinted. I find this personally revolting. There's no reason in the world I should be treated like a criminal (or even potential criminal) just because I want to enter the states! Personally I'm cancelling a trip there and won't be going down south until I get my Canadian passport (as Canadians a exempt from all this BS). Unfortunately, how many people can say they have a Canadian passport waiting for them around the curve? -Oz --- Grab WndTabs from http://www.wndtabs.com to make your VC6 experience that much more comfortable...
Oz Solomonovich wrote: I find this personally revolting. There's no reason in the world I should be treated like a criminal (or even potential criminal) just because I want to enter the states! Absolutely. You shouldn't be fingerprinted unless you try to act on your desires. On the other hand, you can just stay home. We're doing fine over here, presumably you're doing fine over there. Good luck! Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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I'm sure you've all heard about the new "US Visit" thingy (dhs.gov[^]) where they fingerprint every foreign national that comes into the US. Maybe its government propaganda but every article I read is all full of people saying "yeah; extra security is important blah blah blah" and not a single person shouting out in cry for personal privacy. Even my wife can't understand why I'm upset. The usual US lobby groups probably won't nudge a finger since US citizens aren't being fingerprinted. I find this personally revolting. There's no reason in the world I should be treated like a criminal (or even potential criminal) just because I want to enter the states! Personally I'm cancelling a trip there and won't be going down south until I get my Canadian passport (as Canadians a exempt from all this BS). Unfortunately, how many people can say they have a Canadian passport waiting for them around the curve? -Oz --- Grab WndTabs from http://www.wndtabs.com to make your VC6 experience that much more comfortable...
I'm in the mood for a big fat "1"... What will they do for amputees? Toe print? Forehead print?
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My problem with fingerprints is that I leave them everywhere I go. It's just a matter of my physiology... ;P Personally, I'd be happy to give a retina scan. At least I have control over that. It can be used to identify me, but I control who has access to it. I'm sure that its every bit as accurate as a fingerprint. Matt Gullett wrote: If your concern is that they are being automatically used to search criminal records, etc, I would say that most of us have nothing to fear Again, I'm against the stance of "If you have nothing to hide, let me search you". I'm no philosopher nor am I a sociologist or polition, but I can easily see the wrong in the state having too many powers. I just can't argue it that well as the aformentioned types. Last year there was a series of rapes in a certain part of Toronto. If what you are saying is right (i.e. you shouldn't have a problem if you have nothing to hide), then perhaps the police should have stopped every man living in a 5 mile radius and asked for a DNA sample? That just seems wrong to me. --- Grab WndTabs from http://www.wndtabs.com to make your VC6 experience that much more comfortable...
How do you feel about your picture being taken by ATM cameras? There have been many cases where crimes occured at or around ATMs and the policed reviewed the tapes and found the criminal. Oz Solomonovich wrote: then perhaps the police should have stopped every man living in a 5 mile radius and asked for a DNA sample? I would say that this is an entirely different thing. This is a random and unexpected search. Entering the country has always required identification, we're not really adding anything here. I don't see how this is treating someone as a criminal, ie. asking for identification in a verifiable/secure form. (I say secure in that fingerprints are more secure than a passport.) Your picture is undoubtedly captured by one or many security cameras in the airport, is this an invasion? What if the tapes are kept forever? Oz Solomonovich wrote: If you have nothing to hide, let me search you This is not what I said or meant. We're not talking about searching you here, we're talking about verifying your identity and ensuring that you qualify for entrance into the country. This is also not about random/unexpected searches, this is an established rule for entrance into the country, which I would argue, is a major event. Maybe we could operate on a complete honor system here, but I don't see how. I don't want to offend anyone and I truly am trying to see your POV, but I am struggling. I have no problem giving my fingerprint to another country when I enter it. I plan on travelling to Italy and Germany in the summer and I really don't see a problem with it. I feel that the real issue here is that governments (and other entities) are gaining greater access to our personal histories, not because they could not do it before, but because now it can be done almost instantly. It seems as if our entire life is open to anyone who has a computer and some form of unique identification (whether it be passport #, ssn, fingerprint, etc.) We sacrifice our privacy on a daily basis by using credit cards, getting cash at an ATM, etc. It seems like everyone wants to know everything about us and there is nothing truly private. To a large degree, this is true. For better or worse, we live in an age when information is readily available to anyone. It is almost impossible to keep anything private. As an example, a few months ago I received a speeding ticket. Within 1 week, I received letters from 4 different lawyers wanting to offer their servi
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I'm sure you've all heard about the new "US Visit" thingy (dhs.gov[^]) where they fingerprint every foreign national that comes into the US. Maybe its government propaganda but every article I read is all full of people saying "yeah; extra security is important blah blah blah" and not a single person shouting out in cry for personal privacy. Even my wife can't understand why I'm upset. The usual US lobby groups probably won't nudge a finger since US citizens aren't being fingerprinted. I find this personally revolting. There's no reason in the world I should be treated like a criminal (or even potential criminal) just because I want to enter the states! Personally I'm cancelling a trip there and won't be going down south until I get my Canadian passport (as Canadians a exempt from all this BS). Unfortunately, how many people can say they have a Canadian passport waiting for them around the curve? -Oz --- Grab WndTabs from http://www.wndtabs.com to make your VC6 experience that much more comfortable...
The US is screwed - bail out while you can ;P Seriously - there must be a good reason why so many people hate the US! Maybe fixng that problem would increase security a bit. Joel Holdsworth
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I'm sure you've all heard about the new "US Visit" thingy (dhs.gov[^]) where they fingerprint every foreign national that comes into the US. Maybe its government propaganda but every article I read is all full of people saying "yeah; extra security is important blah blah blah" and not a single person shouting out in cry for personal privacy. Even my wife can't understand why I'm upset. The usual US lobby groups probably won't nudge a finger since US citizens aren't being fingerprinted. I find this personally revolting. There's no reason in the world I should be treated like a criminal (or even potential criminal) just because I want to enter the states! Personally I'm cancelling a trip there and won't be going down south until I get my Canadian passport (as Canadians a exempt from all this BS). Unfortunately, how many people can say they have a Canadian passport waiting for them around the curve? -Oz --- Grab WndTabs from http://www.wndtabs.com to make your VC6 experience that much more comfortable...
What's next? Brain Scan?? X| It creates another headache for visitors to USA. Earlier rule was for 25 Islamic countries and that too for males from age 15 to 40. But Pakistan (ally to US in War on Terrorism :~ ) and other middle east countries opposed to that rule. Actually it's double standards. Why visa exempt or finger prints/photo exempt for those 28 countries? I read somewhere that the Florida tourism industry vehemently opposed to the bill which proposed every citizen in the world would need visa to enter USA. I guess they will change the rules again once Al-Queda members who are citizens from one of those 28 countries attack US :mad:
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How do you feel about your picture being taken by ATM cameras? There have been many cases where crimes occured at or around ATMs and the policed reviewed the tapes and found the criminal. Oz Solomonovich wrote: then perhaps the police should have stopped every man living in a 5 mile radius and asked for a DNA sample? I would say that this is an entirely different thing. This is a random and unexpected search. Entering the country has always required identification, we're not really adding anything here. I don't see how this is treating someone as a criminal, ie. asking for identification in a verifiable/secure form. (I say secure in that fingerprints are more secure than a passport.) Your picture is undoubtedly captured by one or many security cameras in the airport, is this an invasion? What if the tapes are kept forever? Oz Solomonovich wrote: If you have nothing to hide, let me search you This is not what I said or meant. We're not talking about searching you here, we're talking about verifying your identity and ensuring that you qualify for entrance into the country. This is also not about random/unexpected searches, this is an established rule for entrance into the country, which I would argue, is a major event. Maybe we could operate on a complete honor system here, but I don't see how. I don't want to offend anyone and I truly am trying to see your POV, but I am struggling. I have no problem giving my fingerprint to another country when I enter it. I plan on travelling to Italy and Germany in the summer and I really don't see a problem with it. I feel that the real issue here is that governments (and other entities) are gaining greater access to our personal histories, not because they could not do it before, but because now it can be done almost instantly. It seems as if our entire life is open to anyone who has a computer and some form of unique identification (whether it be passport #, ssn, fingerprint, etc.) We sacrifice our privacy on a daily basis by using credit cards, getting cash at an ATM, etc. It seems like everyone wants to know everything about us and there is nothing truly private. To a large degree, this is true. For better or worse, we live in an age when information is readily available to anyone. It is almost impossible to keep anything private. As an example, a few months ago I received a speeding ticket. Within 1 week, I received letters from 4 different lawyers wanting to offer their servi
Matt Gullett wrote: I don't see how this is treating someone as a criminal, ie. asking for identification in a verifiable/secure form Matt, I am not against identification. However, I am against fingerprinting specifically. Finger prints (like DNA sampling) is different from other passive identifiaction schemes in that you leave a fingerprint trail wherever you go. I believe that the US has a right to identify me (which I why I quietly stood in line for 10 hours to get a Visa), but when they have my prints, I believe I loose too much control. Again, I restate my approval of iris scanning. Unlike fingerprinting, you have full control over who gets to see the scan and you don't leave it around everywhere you go. I said that the act of fingerprinting make me feel like I'm in the same camp as criminals. Why? Because only criminals a fingerprinted (or at least people with direct suspicion of a crime). If it was a social norm that every person was finger printed (which I hope will never be), I would probably feel differently. --- Grab WndTabs from http://www.wndtabs.com to make your VC6 experience that much more comfortable...
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I'm sure you've all heard about the new "US Visit" thingy (dhs.gov[^]) where they fingerprint every foreign national that comes into the US. Maybe its government propaganda but every article I read is all full of people saying "yeah; extra security is important blah blah blah" and not a single person shouting out in cry for personal privacy. Even my wife can't understand why I'm upset. The usual US lobby groups probably won't nudge a finger since US citizens aren't being fingerprinted. I find this personally revolting. There's no reason in the world I should be treated like a criminal (or even potential criminal) just because I want to enter the states! Personally I'm cancelling a trip there and won't be going down south until I get my Canadian passport (as Canadians a exempt from all this BS). Unfortunately, how many people can say they have a Canadian passport waiting for them around the curve? -Oz --- Grab WndTabs from http://www.wndtabs.com to make your VC6 experience that much more comfortable...
However, they're not fingerprinting those that don't need visa's to get into the US, eg Kiwis, Ozzies etc (though they probably should fingerprint the ozzies) Bryce --- Publitor, making Pubmed easy. http://www.sohocode.com/publitor
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They also have a picture. Where's the justification for taking another one? If you don't look like that anymore, then sure - take another. Keeping a passport current is a reasonable requirement, and those who don't can reasonably be delayed to take a file picture. But I don't see that this process in any clear way improves our security. The lack of a consistent recording of who enters and who leaves is a systemic flaw in our border controls, but there are other ways to repair that problem short of delaying travellers unnecessarily. This step does nothing to repair the fundamental flaw. "Another day done - All targets met; all systems fully operational; all customers satisfied; all staff keen and well motivated; all pigs fed and ready to fly" - Jennie A.
Roger Wright wrote: The lack of a consistent recording of who enters and who leaves is a systemic flaw in our border controls, Agreed so it should be all (crew included) and then more than just major air terminals. Roger Wright wrote: but there are other ways to repair that problem short of delaying travellers unnecessarily. Excuse me. I believe we are talking about 15 seconds here. The spiel about have you accepted anything from strangers is much longer. Then again I am assuming it will not take long to place your finger at the right location. "Don't be so anti-american, would you? KaЯl (to Paul Watson on Baseball Bats) 26 Nov '03 "
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I'm sure you've all heard about the new "US Visit" thingy (dhs.gov[^]) where they fingerprint every foreign national that comes into the US. Maybe its government propaganda but every article I read is all full of people saying "yeah; extra security is important blah blah blah" and not a single person shouting out in cry for personal privacy. Even my wife can't understand why I'm upset. The usual US lobby groups probably won't nudge a finger since US citizens aren't being fingerprinted. I find this personally revolting. There's no reason in the world I should be treated like a criminal (or even potential criminal) just because I want to enter the states! Personally I'm cancelling a trip there and won't be going down south until I get my Canadian passport (as Canadians a exempt from all this BS). Unfortunately, how many people can say they have a Canadian passport waiting for them around the curve? -Oz --- Grab WndTabs from http://www.wndtabs.com to make your VC6 experience that much more comfortable...
Oz Solomonovich wrote: I find this personally revolting. There's no reason in the world I should be treated like a criminal (or even potential criminal) just because I want to enter the states! There's no reason to enter the US in the first place if you don't want to follow the rules.
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Mazdak wrote: Who cares,let them get our fingerprints. We already got them off your luggage.:cool: "Another day done - All targets met; all systems fully operational; all customers satisfied; all staff keen and well motivated; all pigs fed and ready to fly" - Jennie A.
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I think they scan your footprints when they make you walk through the airport with your shoes off. Either that, or the people who work security there really like the smell of sweaty feet. "Another day done - All targets met; all systems fully operational; all customers satisfied; all staff keen and well motivated; all pigs fed and ready to fly" - Jennie A.
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I think they scan your footprints when they make you walk through the airport with your shoes off. Either that, or the people who work security there really like the smell of sweaty feet. "Another day done - All targets met; all systems fully operational; all customers satisfied; all staff keen and well motivated; all pigs fed and ready to fly" - Jennie A.
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Do you have a better solution? Remember what the goal is. If your solution puts convenience above anything else, it is potentially flawed. The same folks that are screaming about being inconvenienced are the very same folks that are quickest to scream about bad things happening to our country because such-and-such process was not put in place. I have absolutely no problem with foreigners being IDd and/or fingerprinted before entering my country. I don't care if it does cost them an extra hour or so at the border. As has already been pointed out, having access to our country is not a right, and thus certain prices must be paid.
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DavidCrow wrote: I have absolutely no problem with foreigners being IDd and/or fingerprinted before entering my country. I don't care if it does cost them an extra hour or so at the border. As has already been pointed out, having access to our country is not a right, and thus certain prices must be paid. This is rapidly descending into Soapbox territory but what the hell... So why stop at foreigners? It's not a great leap to start fingerprinting anyone and everyone. What?! You're soft on American drug trafficers and fugitives and other Bad People?! Or is it only them stinking foreigners who deserve such treatment? Thin edge of the wedge.
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Oz Solomonovich wrote: Citing 9/11 as a reason to take away basic civil liberties is IMO a huge problem. So, just why do you believe one of your basic civil liberties is to enter the USA without permitting a verifiable identification? It would be a valid complaint if you had to scale a wall and risk being shot for leaving but you have absolutely no say in what our country might demand for entry. As far as I am concerned your civil rights exist within the boundaries of your country on the basis granted by your civil laws. Oz Solomonovich wrote: I understand the need to balance privacy and national security, but where is the limit? Good question, I don't think we've hit that limit just yet. Mike "liberals are being driven crazy by the fact that Bush is so popular with Americans, and thus by the realization that anyone to the left of center is utterly marginal." JAMES TRAUB NY Times Loyal member of the vast right wing conspiracy **"could a country (USA) letting one sixth of its population under the level of powerty be considered as civilized?"**KaЯl (France let 15,000 elderly die from summer heat)
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As a Britsh citizen and US green card holder, I have had my fingerprints taken more times than I can remember. It doesn't bother me at all, since I have nothing to hide. It's just part of the process. They were doing it before 9/11 too. Personally, I think that all new-born babies should be fingerprinted too. Speaking as a citizen from a country that doesn't really have a constitution, I think that the Constitution causes more problems than it solves. Expecially as it hasn't really been updated for 250+ years.
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However, they're not fingerprinting those that don't need visa's to get into the US, eg Kiwis, Ozzies etc (though they probably should fingerprint the ozzies) Bryce --- Publitor, making Pubmed easy. http://www.sohocode.com/publitor
bryce wrote: However, they're not fingerprinting those that don't need visa's to get into the US, eg Kiwis, Ozzies etc (though they probably should fingerprint the ozzies) Fuck off back to kiwiland you shandy drinker. Michael Martin Australia "I suspect I will be impressed though, I am easy." - Paul Watson 21/09/2003
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How long do you get to keep the prints? Michael Martin Australia "I suspect I will be impressed though, I am easy." - Paul Watson 21/09/2003
Michael Martin wrote: How long do you get to keep the prints? An interesting question, I really don't know. If I were to guess I would say that the prints go into and stay in some big DB. That is somehing that, well, not sure how I view it. On the one hand doing so would support analysis for the future as in, "there is an odd pattern of travel by person "X", should we ask his/her country to investigate?". On the other hsnd I would prefer that once that person "X" leaves that the prints be deleted. Mike "liberals are being driven crazy by the fact that Bush is so popular with Americans, and thus by the realization that anyone to the left of center is utterly marginal." JAMES TRAUB NY Times Loyal member of the vast right wing conspiracy