Is Conciousness necessary?
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I was just having some random thoughts about conciousness and i got a question. Now it seems pretty certain that conciousness is a function of the brain, i don't feel that the removal of any other body part would result in a loss of self-awareness. But my question is if someone is born without any input senses? (i.e. No sight,sound,smell,touch) would he become concious? Do you think kids are concious. Somehow i feel that the key to conciousness is information. I get the feeling that when the brain achieves a critical mass of information, it becomes self-aware. Any thoughts?
I always think that the idea of a compiler that compiles another compiler or itself is rather incestuous in a binary way. - Colin Davies My .Net Blog
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I was just having some random thoughts about conciousness and i got a question. Now it seems pretty certain that conciousness is a function of the brain, i don't feel that the removal of any other body part would result in a loss of self-awareness. But my question is if someone is born without any input senses? (i.e. No sight,sound,smell,touch) would he become concious? Do you think kids are concious. Somehow i feel that the key to conciousness is information. I get the feeling that when the brain achieves a critical mass of information, it becomes self-aware. Any thoughts?
I always think that the idea of a compiler that compiles another compiler or itself is rather incestuous in a binary way. - Colin Davies My .Net Blog
Sijin wrote: But my question is if someone is born without any input senses? (i.e. No sight,sound,smell,touch) would he become concious? He'd still be thinking. If not, he'd be dead. -- Try walking in my shoes. You stumble in my footsteps.
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Very intresting. That raises another thought, can we think if we don't ever recieve any sensory input?....Can thoughts be truly spontaneous?.. I mean don't all our thoughts come when they are triggered by some external input? Does the brain automatically start thinking after some time?
I always think that the idea of a compiler that compiles another compiler or itself is rather incestuous in a binary way. - Colin Davies My .Net Blog
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That was a great link Karl, Thanks a lot mate. I am reading through "Thoughts on First Philosphy " right now.
I always think that the idea of a compiler that compiles another compiler or itself is rather incestuous in a binary way. - Colin Davies My .Net Blog
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Very intresting. That raises another thought, can we think if we don't ever recieve any sensory input?....Can thoughts be truly spontaneous?.. I mean don't all our thoughts come when they are triggered by some external input? Does the brain automatically start thinking after some time?
I always think that the idea of a compiler that compiles another compiler or itself is rather incestuous in a binary way. - Colin Davies My .Net Blog
Are thoughts mandatory started by an external/sensorial input? I'm not sure. However, a human being without any contact with the "outside world" would miss all the educational part of Life, so I suppose his/her development would be very limited. Would it be enough to reach consciousness? I have no idea.
In amongst the statues Stare at nothing in The garden moves...
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I was just having some random thoughts about conciousness and i got a question. Now it seems pretty certain that conciousness is a function of the brain, i don't feel that the removal of any other body part would result in a loss of self-awareness. But my question is if someone is born without any input senses? (i.e. No sight,sound,smell,touch) would he become concious? Do you think kids are concious. Somehow i feel that the key to conciousness is information. I get the feeling that when the brain achieves a critical mass of information, it becomes self-aware. Any thoughts?
I always think that the idea of a compiler that compiles another compiler or itself is rather incestuous in a binary way. - Colin Davies My .Net Blog
Sijin wrote: But my question is if someone is born without any input senses? (i.e. No sight,sound,smell,touch) would he become concious? IIRC, Immanuel Kant tackled this in A Critique of Pure Reason. Having consistently failed to get through this book, I can't really explain it very well, apart from mentioning the notions of a priori and a posteriori knowledge, and any individual having a priori knowledge would be able to think, even if they had never gained knowledge from experience (this is a posteriori knowledge) -- Ian Darling "The different versions of the UN*X brand operating system are numbered in a logical sequence: 5, 6, 7, 2, 2.9, 3, 4.0, III, 4.1, V, 4.2, V.2, and 4.3" - Alan Filipski
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Sijin wrote: But my question is if someone is born without any input senses? (i.e. No sight,sound,smell,touch) would he become concious? IIRC, Immanuel Kant tackled this in A Critique of Pure Reason. Having consistently failed to get through this book, I can't really explain it very well, apart from mentioning the notions of a priori and a posteriori knowledge, and any individual having a priori knowledge would be able to think, even if they had never gained knowledge from experience (this is a posteriori knowledge) -- Ian Darling "The different versions of the UN*X brand operating system are numbered in a logical sequence: 5, 6, 7, 2, 2.9, 3, 4.0, III, 4.1, V, 4.2, V.2, and 4.3" - Alan Filipski
>gained knowledge from experience (this is a posteriori knowledge) Which is when you try something and end up falling on your arse. :~ Sorry, had to say it. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Christopher Duncan quoted: "All Corvettes are red. Everything else is just a mistake." Crikey! ain't life grand? Einstein says...
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>gained knowledge from experience (this is a posteriori knowledge) Which is when you try something and end up falling on your arse. :~ Sorry, had to say it. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Christopher Duncan quoted: "All Corvettes are red. Everything else is just a mistake." Crikey! ain't life grand? Einstein says...
Paul Watson wrote: Which is when you try something and end up falling on your arse. Sorry, had to say it. :-D Thank you for providing the laymans version :-) -- Ian Darling "The different versions of the UN*X brand operating system are numbered in a logical sequence: 5, 6, 7, 2, 2.9, 3, 4.0, III, 4.1, V, 4.2, V.2, and 4.3" - Alan Filipski
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I was just having some random thoughts about conciousness and i got a question. Now it seems pretty certain that conciousness is a function of the brain, i don't feel that the removal of any other body part would result in a loss of self-awareness. But my question is if someone is born without any input senses? (i.e. No sight,sound,smell,touch) would he become concious? Do you think kids are concious. Somehow i feel that the key to conciousness is information. I get the feeling that when the brain achieves a critical mass of information, it becomes self-aware. Any thoughts?
I always think that the idea of a compiler that compiles another compiler or itself is rather incestuous in a binary way. - Colin Davies My .Net Blog
I think you are confuseing consciousness with self-awareness. 'Self' is merely one of many things that we are conscious of, it is a cognitive acievement (based upon having enough neural mass to think it) and nothing more. Is it possible to be conscious without being conscious of it? Certainly. I think evolution has built the brain around conciousness not vice versa. To assume that consciousness explodes out of a machine once it has acheived a certain arbitrary level of information processing ability is one of the most absurd fallicies of our time. It is like the dark age notion of believing that life (or at least mice) is spontaniously generated out of piles of dirty clothing. I think even the lowly house fly is conscious - of what it needs to be conscious of. It has no self awareness, but it is certainly as aware of what its senses present to it as you and I are. But to answer your question, is consciousness necessary? The answer is: "No, it isn't." The fact that we have intelligent machines diligently following the instructions we place in them, yet having done nothing to render them conscious, is proof of that. The greater question is this: If consciousness is not necessary for intelligence, and it obviously isn't since we have acheived non-conscious intelligence in our machines, than why did nature go to the trouble of creating it? Why does it exist at all? The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism, but under then name of Liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program until one day America will be a Socialist nation without knowing how it happened. - Norman Thomas, Socialist Party Presidential candidate
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I was just having some random thoughts about conciousness and i got a question. Now it seems pretty certain that conciousness is a function of the brain, i don't feel that the removal of any other body part would result in a loss of self-awareness. But my question is if someone is born without any input senses? (i.e. No sight,sound,smell,touch) would he become concious? Do you think kids are concious. Somehow i feel that the key to conciousness is information. I get the feeling that when the brain achieves a critical mass of information, it becomes self-aware. Any thoughts?
I always think that the idea of a compiler that compiles another compiler or itself is rather incestuous in a binary way. - Colin Davies My .Net Blog
Consciousness? At this hour of the morning? I'll let you know after I finish my :java:. Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World
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I think you are confuseing consciousness with self-awareness. 'Self' is merely one of many things that we are conscious of, it is a cognitive acievement (based upon having enough neural mass to think it) and nothing more. Is it possible to be conscious without being conscious of it? Certainly. I think evolution has built the brain around conciousness not vice versa. To assume that consciousness explodes out of a machine once it has acheived a certain arbitrary level of information processing ability is one of the most absurd fallicies of our time. It is like the dark age notion of believing that life (or at least mice) is spontaniously generated out of piles of dirty clothing. I think even the lowly house fly is conscious - of what it needs to be conscious of. It has no self awareness, but it is certainly as aware of what its senses present to it as you and I are. But to answer your question, is consciousness necessary? The answer is: "No, it isn't." The fact that we have intelligent machines diligently following the instructions we place in them, yet having done nothing to render them conscious, is proof of that. The greater question is this: If consciousness is not necessary for intelligence, and it obviously isn't since we have acheived non-conscious intelligence in our machines, than why did nature go to the trouble of creating it? Why does it exist at all? The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism, but under then name of Liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program until one day America will be a Socialist nation without knowing how it happened. - Norman Thomas, Socialist Party Presidential candidate
OK Stan, that is way too many serious and sensible posts in a row now. If your not careful they'll revoke your Redneck Card and will no longer be recognised as a Sooner. Now git yer shotgun and banjo and git out back an russle up some grub now, ye hear. :-D Michael Martin Australia "I suspect I will be impressed though, I am easy." - Paul Watson 21/09/2003
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Consciousness? At this hour of the morning? I'll let you know after I finish my :java:. Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World
Christopher Duncan wrote: Consciousness? At this hour of the morning? And just what is wrong with 1:00AM may I ask? You'll be glad too know I haven't killed anybody yet and have for the most part refrained from exploding. But I goyta say it is absolutely no fun. I'm running into too many people that need a shot of reality Mick style but get to continue with their delusional life not knowing what they need to be told. Michael Martin Australia "I suspect I will be impressed though, I am easy." - Paul Watson 21/09/2003
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I think you are confuseing consciousness with self-awareness. 'Self' is merely one of many things that we are conscious of, it is a cognitive acievement (based upon having enough neural mass to think it) and nothing more. Is it possible to be conscious without being conscious of it? Certainly. I think evolution has built the brain around conciousness not vice versa. To assume that consciousness explodes out of a machine once it has acheived a certain arbitrary level of information processing ability is one of the most absurd fallicies of our time. It is like the dark age notion of believing that life (or at least mice) is spontaniously generated out of piles of dirty clothing. I think even the lowly house fly is conscious - of what it needs to be conscious of. It has no self awareness, but it is certainly as aware of what its senses present to it as you and I are. But to answer your question, is consciousness necessary? The answer is: "No, it isn't." The fact that we have intelligent machines diligently following the instructions we place in them, yet having done nothing to render them conscious, is proof of that. The greater question is this: If consciousness is not necessary for intelligence, and it obviously isn't since we have acheived non-conscious intelligence in our machines, than why did nature go to the trouble of creating it? Why does it exist at all? The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism, but under then name of Liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program until one day America will be a Socialist nation without knowing how it happened. - Norman Thomas, Socialist Party Presidential candidate
Hey Stan, always great to hear your views on this subject. Stan Shannon wrote: But to answer your question, is consciousness necessary? The answer is: "No, it isn't." The fact that we have intelligent machines diligently following the instructions we place in them, yet having done nothing to render them conscious, is proof of that. What i was asking is if a human being is born without any input senses, would he become concious of 'self'? Stan Shannon wrote: I think evolution has built the brain around conciousness not vice versa I don't quite follow that one :confused: Stan Shannon wrote: To assume that consciousness explodes out of a machine once it has acheived a certain arbitrary level of information processing ability is one of the most absurd fallicies of our time. It is like the dark age notion of believing that life (or at least mice) is spontaniously generated out of piles of dirty clothing. Not information processing ability, but rather just information. So what i wam saying is that people with no memory at all, neither short-term or long-term would not be self-aware. What do you think?
I always think that the idea of a compiler that compiles another compiler or itself is rather incestuous in a binary way. - Colin Davies My .Net Blog
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I was just having some random thoughts about conciousness and i got a question. Now it seems pretty certain that conciousness is a function of the brain, i don't feel that the removal of any other body part would result in a loss of self-awareness. But my question is if someone is born without any input senses? (i.e. No sight,sound,smell,touch) would he become concious? Do you think kids are concious. Somehow i feel that the key to conciousness is information. I get the feeling that when the brain achieves a critical mass of information, it becomes self-aware. Any thoughts?
I always think that the idea of a compiler that compiles another compiler or itself is rather incestuous in a binary way. - Colin Davies My .Net Blog
Sijin wrote: Is Conciousness necessary? Not if what I'm seeing from some people lately is any indication. (yeah - grumpy Chris this morning) cheers, Chris Maunder
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Sijin wrote: Is Conciousness necessary? Not if what I'm seeing from some people lately is any indication. (yeah - grumpy Chris this morning) cheers, Chris Maunder
You have no excuse to be grumpy. You chose to be out of Australia on Australia Day and therefore miss out on a Public Holiday. No one made you, so stop being grumpy and take your medicine like a big boy. :-D Michael Martin Australia "I suspect I will be impressed though, I am easy." - Paul Watson 21/09/2003
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I was just having some random thoughts about conciousness and i got a question. Now it seems pretty certain that conciousness is a function of the brain, i don't feel that the removal of any other body part would result in a loss of self-awareness. But my question is if someone is born without any input senses? (i.e. No sight,sound,smell,touch) would he become concious? Do you think kids are concious. Somehow i feel that the key to conciousness is information. I get the feeling that when the brain achieves a critical mass of information, it becomes self-aware. Any thoughts?
I always think that the idea of a compiler that compiles another compiler or itself is rather incestuous in a binary way. - Colin Davies My .Net Blog
Yes, it's necessary, if we intend to continue (or for that matter, begin) evolving as beings capable of making moral decisions [edit]out of true freedom.[/edit] I added the edited part so that we don't get into an argument about making moral decisions based on instinct Marc Latest AAL Article My blog Join my forum!
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I was just having some random thoughts about conciousness and i got a question. Now it seems pretty certain that conciousness is a function of the brain, i don't feel that the removal of any other body part would result in a loss of self-awareness. But my question is if someone is born without any input senses? (i.e. No sight,sound,smell,touch) would he become concious? Do you think kids are concious. Somehow i feel that the key to conciousness is information. I get the feeling that when the brain achieves a critical mass of information, it becomes self-aware. Any thoughts?
I always think that the idea of a compiler that compiles another compiler or itself is rather incestuous in a binary way. - Colin Davies My .Net Blog
Sijin wrote: Now it seems pretty certain that conciousness is a function of the brain, i don't feel that the removal of any other body part would result in a loss of self-awareness. Of course it leads to a loss of self-awareness. If you remove your foot, are you still aware of it? No! It's gone. Is your foot somehow not "you", in the sense that it is not part of your own self-awareness? Sijin wrote: But my question is if someone is born without any input senses? (i.e. No sight,sound,smell,touch) would he become concious? Who knows? You can't ask a person in that state, because that would require some form of senses in order to communicate. So the question is moot. On the other hand, people who put themselves in sensory deprevation tanks have had very spiritual experiences. I'll stop there. Sijin wrote: Do you think kids are concious. Somehow i feel that the key to conciousness is information. I get the feeling that when the brain achieves a critical mass of information, it becomes self-aware. Any thoughts? Sadly, this kind of thinking is the result of materialistic scientific analysis--everything boils down to "information". Consciousness goes way beyond "information". As I mentioned in my other post, it has to do with morality and freedom. But consider also that it is through your consciousness that you are able to abstract information into concepts, that you are able to place yourself in relation with those concepts, and thereby transform "information" into "knowledge". Without consciousness, none of that would be possible. By that definition, children are probably the most conscious of the stages of life, as they are forming concepts very quickly. This is why a correct education, that brings things to life rather than deadening things with "facts" and "information" is so important--because you want to raise the child's consciousness as much as possible. Marc Latest AAL Article My blog Join my forum!
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I was just having some random thoughts about conciousness and i got a question. Now it seems pretty certain that conciousness is a function of the brain, i don't feel that the removal of any other body part would result in a loss of self-awareness. But my question is if someone is born without any input senses? (i.e. No sight,sound,smell,touch) would he become concious? Do you think kids are concious. Somehow i feel that the key to conciousness is information. I get the feeling that when the brain achieves a critical mass of information, it becomes self-aware. Any thoughts?
I always think that the idea of a compiler that compiles another compiler or itself is rather incestuous in a binary way. - Colin Davies My .Net Blog
Conciousness is a bad side-effect of an overdeveloped brain. :suss: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Memory leaks is the price we pay \0 01234567890123456789012345678901234
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Christopher Duncan wrote: Consciousness? At this hour of the morning? And just what is wrong with 1:00AM may I ask? You'll be glad too know I haven't killed anybody yet and have for the most part refrained from exploding. But I goyta say it is absolutely no fun. I'm running into too many people that need a shot of reality Mick style but get to continue with their delusional life not knowing what they need to be told. Michael Martin Australia "I suspect I will be impressed though, I am easy." - Paul Watson 21/09/2003
Michael Martin wrote: And just what is wrong with 1:00AM may I ask? Depends on whether you're coming or going. :-D Michael Martin wrote: I'm running into too many people that need a shot of reality Mick style but get to continue with their delusional life not knowing what they need to be told. Yeah, no shortage of those guys, to be sure. However, what I finally realized is that tactical applications of a baseball bat didn't cure any of them. They remained clueless, and the only result was more internal wear and tear on my own equipment. People with a clue and people who sincerely want to work for a better tomorrow have my utmost support. As for the others, I just decided to let karma take its toll without my assistance. You'd be surprised how much money I've saved on baseball bats. ;) Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World
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Sijin wrote: Is Conciousness necessary? Not if what I'm seeing from some people lately is any indication. (yeah - grumpy Chris this morning) cheers, Chris Maunder
Chris Maunder wrote: Not if what I'm seeing from some people lately is any indication. Hmmm. Maybe I should send you all those old baseball bats I'm not using anymore. They're a little cracked & splintered, but I think you can still get a good whack or two out of them... Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World