The Passion of the Christ
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Isn't the paranoia surrounding this movie incredible? In my entire life I have never encountered anti-semitism based on the notion that the "Jews killed Christ". I've encountered a lot based on the notion that the "Jews own all the banks" or other such nonsense, but nothing that related back to the bible. In fact, every good Christian I now understands that Christ died for the sins of the entire human race, thus we are all equally responsible. "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
Stan Shannon wrote: In my entire life I have never encountered anti-semitism based on the notion that the "Jews killed Christ". This is perhaps more a specificity of catholicism. In the past, and for centuries, jews were displayed as the killers of Christ, and catholicism promoted a kind of antisemitism through its education. They were also accused of negating the concept Christ was the Messiah, a crime in these times of extremism. For example, many jews were persecuted during the crusades because of these religious beliefs. I think all these references were removed after the council "Vatican II", in the 60's.
And I'm talking to myself at night because I can't forget Back and forth through my mind Behind a cigarette
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Isn't the paranoia surrounding this movie incredible? In my entire life I have never encountered anti-semitism based on the notion that the "Jews killed Christ". I've encountered a lot based on the notion that the "Jews own all the banks" or other such nonsense, but nothing that related back to the bible. In fact, every good Christian I now understands that Christ died for the sins of the entire human race, thus we are all equally responsible. "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
Stan Shannon wrote: Isn't the paranoia surrounding this movie incredible? In my entire life I have never encountered anti-semitism based on the notion that the "Jews killed Christ". I've encountered a lot based on the notion that the "Jews own all the banks" or other such nonsense, but nothing that related back to the bible. In fact, every good Christian I now understands that Christ died for the sins of the entire human race, thus we are all equally responsible. Your experience of "good Christians" is obviously limited. Many Christians think exactly as you describe, but over the course of the past 2000 years, very different views have been held --- so much so that the Pope apologised a few years back for the role that the Catholic church had played in the persecution of Jews. http://www.detnews.com/2000/religion/0003/13/A12-15167.htm[^] Most Jewish commentators considered that the apology was inadequate, considering the level of culpability involved. Some links below may be of interest (I can't vouch for the accuracy of all of the information, but if you do a Google search, then I believe that you will find enough smoke to convince you of the existence of a fire). http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers1.htm[^] http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers3.htm[^] It is of some interest to note that, contrary to widespread belief, Jews and Arabs have not been warring with each other for 2000 years. That is a 20th (and now 21st) century phenomenon. Historically, the main antagonists of the Jews have been Christians, not Muslims. For example, when Spain was Muslim-dominated, the Jews were pretty much left alone and prospered. When Christianity took over, the Spanish Inquisition was created, which made a particular target of Jews. When Britain was in the process of creating a Jewish homeland in Palestine in the aftermath of WWI, the British Shaw Commission into the 1929 violence commented as follows: In less than 10 years three serious attacks have been made by Arabs on Jews
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Isn't the paranoia surrounding this movie incredible? In my entire life I have never encountered anti-semitism based on the notion that the "Jews killed Christ". I've encountered a lot based on the notion that the "Jews own all the banks" or other such nonsense, but nothing that related back to the bible. In fact, every good Christian I now understands that Christ died for the sins of the entire human race, thus we are all equally responsible. "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
I always find the "Jews killed Christ" , "lets hate Jews arguement" illogical since Jesus was a Jew, If the Jewish community promoted "Jesus was a Jew" arguement a bit more that idiot arguement would evaporate. Regardz Colin J Davies
*** WARNING *
This could be addictive
**The minion's version of "Catch :bob: "It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox
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(Steven Hicks)n+1 wrote: oh come on he was born in lower Eastern Europe area wait... Bethlehem, Israel is "lower Eastern Europe" ? Cleek | Losinger Designs | ClickPic | ThumbNailer
Jews of the time were not Europeanized like they are today. After the diaspora, they were scattered and pretty much lost their heritage and their lineage. Jews today are just about any color. Back then they would have been darker skinned like Arabs, but not black.
"We have done so much in the last 2 years, and it doesn't happen by standing around with your finger in your ear, hoping everyone thinks that that's nice." - Donald Rumsfeld
Jason Henderson
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Saw it last night. Absolutely stunning. Mel Gibson should be applauded for the risks he took and thanked for the results. Mike "liberals are being driven crazy by the fact that Bush is so popular with Americans, and thus by the realization that anyone to the left of center is utterly marginal." JAMES TRAUB NY Times Loyal member of the vast right wing conspiracy
My wife was bawling through the whole thing. I cried when Mary ran up to him while carrying the cross and he said that he made all things new. It certainly moved me, but I'm a Christian. I just hope it moves those who need it most.
"We have done so much in the last 2 years, and it doesn't happen by standing around with your finger in your ear, hoping everyone thinks that that's nice." - Donald Rumsfeld
Jason Henderson
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Jews of the time were not Europeanized like they are today. After the diaspora, they were scattered and pretty much lost their heritage and their lineage. Jews today are just about any color. Back then they would have been darker skinned like Arabs, but not black.
"We have done so much in the last 2 years, and it doesn't happen by standing around with your finger in your ear, hoping everyone thinks that that's nice." - Donald Rumsfeld
Jason Henderson
blogerr yeah. still not "Lower Eastern European". Cleek | Losinger Designs | ClickPic | ThumbNailer
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err yeah. still not "Lower Eastern European". Cleek | Losinger Designs | ClickPic | ThumbNailer
i agree with you. technically, Europe starts in Istanbul, not Palestine. so it's southwestern Asia.
"We have done so much in the last 2 years, and it doesn't happen by standing around with your finger in your ear, hoping everyone thinks that that's nice." - Donald Rumsfeld
Jason Henderson
blog -
My wife was bawling through the whole thing. I cried when Mary ran up to him while carrying the cross and he said that he made all things new. It certainly moved me, but I'm a Christian. I just hope it moves those who need it most.
"We have done so much in the last 2 years, and it doesn't happen by standing around with your finger in your ear, hoping everyone thinks that that's nice." - Donald Rumsfeld
Jason Henderson
blogJason Henderson wrote: I just hope it moves those who need it most. but in which direction ? I plan seeing this tomorrow evening.
Maximilien Lincourt Your Head A Splode - Strong Bad
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Jason Henderson wrote: I just hope it moves those who need it most. but in which direction ? I plan seeing this tomorrow evening.
Maximilien Lincourt Your Head A Splode - Strong Bad
Toward Christ of course.
"We have done so much in the last 2 years, and it doesn't happen by standing around with your finger in your ear, hoping everyone thinks that that's nice." - Donald Rumsfeld
Jason Henderson
blog -
Saw it last night. Absolutely stunning. Mel Gibson should be applauded for the risks he took and thanked for the results. Mike "liberals are being driven crazy by the fact that Bush is so popular with Americans, and thus by the realization that anyone to the left of center is utterly marginal." JAMES TRAUB NY Times Loyal member of the vast right wing conspiracy
Mike Gaskey wrote: Saw it last night. Absolutely stunning. Mel Gibson should be applauded for the risks he took and thanked for the results. You right wingers may be interested in the opinion of a fellow right winger, William Safire: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/01/opinion/01SAFI.html?hp[^] John Carson "I wish to propose for the reader's favourable consideration a doctrine which may, I fear, appear wildly paradoxical and subversive. The doctrine in question is this: that it is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true." - Bertrand Russell
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Stan Shannon wrote: Isn't the paranoia surrounding this movie incredible? In my entire life I have never encountered anti-semitism based on the notion that the "Jews killed Christ". I've encountered a lot based on the notion that the "Jews own all the banks" or other such nonsense, but nothing that related back to the bible. In fact, every good Christian I now understands that Christ died for the sins of the entire human race, thus we are all equally responsible. Your experience of "good Christians" is obviously limited. Many Christians think exactly as you describe, but over the course of the past 2000 years, very different views have been held --- so much so that the Pope apologised a few years back for the role that the Catholic church had played in the persecution of Jews. http://www.detnews.com/2000/religion/0003/13/A12-15167.htm[^] Most Jewish commentators considered that the apology was inadequate, considering the level of culpability involved. Some links below may be of interest (I can't vouch for the accuracy of all of the information, but if you do a Google search, then I believe that you will find enough smoke to convince you of the existence of a fire). http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers1.htm[^] http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers3.htm[^] It is of some interest to note that, contrary to widespread belief, Jews and Arabs have not been warring with each other for 2000 years. That is a 20th (and now 21st) century phenomenon. Historically, the main antagonists of the Jews have been Christians, not Muslims. For example, when Spain was Muslim-dominated, the Jews were pretty much left alone and prospered. When Christianity took over, the Spanish Inquisition was created, which made a particular target of Jews. When Britain was in the process of creating a Jewish homeland in Palestine in the aftermath of WWI, the British Shaw Commission into the 1929 violence commented as follows: In less than 10 years three serious attacks have been made by Arabs on Jews
Excellent references, John. Although very little class time was spent in my youth on the problems of the Middle East, it's always been my impression that the Arab/Jew conflict is a recent thing. I conclude from the timing that it started as a response to European meddling in the region, culminating in the creation of the state of Israel. I doubt that the rest of the world, in the deliberations over a solution to the problem of a homeland for Jews, ever considered the intensity or duration of the backlash from those displaced by their actions. I've never understood the persecution of Jews, other than as a scapegoat for the ills of a society run by despots. As a group - in my experience only - they are invariably hard-working, intelligent, and well educated. As a result they tend to rise to professional positions within society, much to the ire of those who have little. That makes them easy targets, but a society that fails to recognize and appreciate such valuable contributors is doomed. Heard in Bullhead City - "You haven't lost your girl -
you've just lost your turn..." [sigh] So true... -
Mike Gaskey wrote: Saw it last night. Absolutely stunning. Mel Gibson should be applauded for the risks he took and thanked for the results. You right wingers may be interested in the opinion of a fellow right winger, William Safire: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/01/opinion/01SAFI.html?hp[^] John Carson "I wish to propose for the reader's favourable consideration a doctrine which may, I fear, appear wildly paradoxical and subversive. The doctrine in question is this: that it is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true." - Bertrand Russell
Wow!! Safire is really out of control this time. Gibson's father is an outspoken holocaust denier? What a joke... is he Ernst Zundel? Does he have his own propaganda machine churning out lies? No... he is a dotty old guy, who has been hounded by Safire and his ilk looking for sensational quotes to use against his son, Mel. I saw the movie, and found it intriguing, but didn't really like it, because it was focused too much on the physical suffering of Jesus. My feeling is that if you had the weight of all human sin on your soul, your suffering would be much more intense than merely a physical scourging. But that kind of suffering is hard to cinematically depict. Plus it is very difficult to capture "holiness" on film, which takes away from the utter contrast that would have existed between Jesus and those who crucified him. Still... I'm going to see it again. JM
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Wow!! Safire is really out of control this time. Gibson's father is an outspoken holocaust denier? What a joke... is he Ernst Zundel? Does he have his own propaganda machine churning out lies? No... he is a dotty old guy, who has been hounded by Safire and his ilk looking for sensational quotes to use against his son, Mel. I saw the movie, and found it intriguing, but didn't really like it, because it was focused too much on the physical suffering of Jesus. My feeling is that if you had the weight of all human sin on your soul, your suffering would be much more intense than merely a physical scourging. But that kind of suffering is hard to cinematically depict. Plus it is very difficult to capture "holiness" on film, which takes away from the utter contrast that would have existed between Jesus and those who crucified him. Still... I'm going to see it again. JM
John McIlroy wrote: Gibson's father is an outspoken holocaust denier? well, he is.
STEVE FEUERSTEIN: WHAT WAS THIS EVENT CALLED THE HOLOCAUST? GIBSON: In the first place the Holocaust is a terrible misnomer. First of all a Holocaust is a burnt offering to G-d. Now these people were not offering themselves up to G-d. If these people were being killed they were being taken there screaming howling and yelling for they were being persecuted and murdered. That is not a Holocaust. Secondly there were not that many Jews under Hitler's power under his sway. They claimed that there were 6.2 million in Poland before the war and after the war there were 200,000; therefore he (Hitler) must have killed six million of them. They simply got up and left! They were all over the Bronx and Brooklyn and Sydney and Los Angeles. Everybody was out to get Hitler ... but you know he was not that efficient. I've known a lot of Germans. The society I went to school to were Germans and they were thorough they were good teachers. They were efficient and they know how to do things. If they had set out to kill six million Jews they would have done it. But all we hear about is Holocaust survivors. "Oh, we know it happened, cause over there is a survivor. Oh, my mother and father were survivors," they say. This is absolutely ridiculous. And (the Holocaust) it's all - may not all fiction - but most of it is. For instance the gas chambers and crematoria at Auschwitz would not do the job. Do you know what it takes to get rid of a dead body? To cremate it? It takes a liter of petrol and 20 minutes - now six million of them? They (the Germans) did not have the gas to do it. That's why they lost the war. Regarding the gas chamber, the gas was going the wrong way. You see it was going down instead of up....
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Isn't the paranoia surrounding this movie incredible? In my entire life I have never encountered anti-semitism based on the notion that the "Jews killed Christ". I've encountered a lot based on the notion that the "Jews own all the banks" or other such nonsense, but nothing that related back to the bible. In fact, every good Christian I now understands that Christ died for the sins of the entire human race, thus we are all equally responsible. "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
Stan Shannon wrote: thus we are all equally responsible. Hey!!!!!!!!!!!! Dont be pointing that finger at me. :-)
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John McIlroy wrote: Gibson's father is an outspoken holocaust denier? well, he is.
STEVE FEUERSTEIN: WHAT WAS THIS EVENT CALLED THE HOLOCAUST? GIBSON: In the first place the Holocaust is a terrible misnomer. First of all a Holocaust is a burnt offering to G-d. Now these people were not offering themselves up to G-d. If these people were being killed they were being taken there screaming howling and yelling for they were being persecuted and murdered. That is not a Holocaust. Secondly there were not that many Jews under Hitler's power under his sway. They claimed that there were 6.2 million in Poland before the war and after the war there were 200,000; therefore he (Hitler) must have killed six million of them. They simply got up and left! They were all over the Bronx and Brooklyn and Sydney and Los Angeles. Everybody was out to get Hitler ... but you know he was not that efficient. I've known a lot of Germans. The society I went to school to were Germans and they were thorough they were good teachers. They were efficient and they know how to do things. If they had set out to kill six million Jews they would have done it. But all we hear about is Holocaust survivors. "Oh, we know it happened, cause over there is a survivor. Oh, my mother and father were survivors," they say. This is absolutely ridiculous. And (the Holocaust) it's all - may not all fiction - but most of it is. For instance the gas chambers and crematoria at Auschwitz would not do the job. Do you know what it takes to get rid of a dead body? To cremate it? It takes a liter of petrol and 20 minutes - now six million of them? They (the Germans) did not have the gas to do it. That's why they lost the war. Regarding the gas chamber, the gas was going the wrong way. You see it was going down instead of up....
I doubt anyone, save the liberal left, cares what Gibson's father thinks. Mike "liberals are being driven crazy by the fact that Bush is so popular with Americans, and thus by the realization that anyone to the left of center is utterly marginal." JAMES TRAUB NY Times Loyal member of the vast right wing conspiracy
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I doubt anyone, save the liberal left, cares what Gibson's father thinks. Mike "liberals are being driven crazy by the fact that Bush is so popular with Americans, and thus by the realization that anyone to the left of center is utterly marginal." JAMES TRAUB NY Times Loyal member of the vast right wing conspiracy
Mel ("My father has never told me a lie.") probably cares what his father thinks. Cleek | Losinger Designs | ClickPic | ThumbNailer
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Christian Graus wrote: Seriously ? I've read KKK propaganda along those lines. Could be, I don't keep up much with the Klan's propaganda, but I understand they are much more "nazi" like than they used to be. However, I was raised by deeply religious, and very backwoods, southerners and all I was ever taught about Jews is that they were "God's choosen people" (in the old testament sense) and were to be respected. I don't think that was an uncommon opinion. I can still hear my mom warning me that God would punish a 1000 fold anyone who harmed a Jew. Which was an odd warning considering there were probably no Jews within fifty miles of where we lived. "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
What I find funny is that they have a word for hating jews, but not for any of the other religions. I find the practice wholly unfair, and I have written a letter to the UN to implement a non-religion-specific term for hating any organized region. I supplied two suggestions: "Weenie-heads" "Poopie-pants" ------- sig starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- sig ends
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Saw it last night. Absolutely stunning. Mel Gibson should be applauded for the risks he took and thanked for the results. Mike "liberals are being driven crazy by the fact that Bush is so popular with Americans, and thus by the realization that anyone to the left of center is utterly marginal." JAMES TRAUB NY Times Loyal member of the vast right wing conspiracy
I like this trend started with this movie, hopefully we will start to see other fairy tales made into movies as well. Grimms for example, isn't it time to see them come around again?
Americans are benevolently ignorant about Canada, while Canadians are malevolently well informed about the United States. - J. Bartlett Brebner -
Trollslayer wrote: I think this has come about because of his father saying the Holocaust didn't happen... I think it goes a lot deeper than that. His dad is apparently a loony toons nobody, so why should anyone care so much about his opinions unless they had specific evidence that the son was trying to promulgate the father's beliefs? Gibson continues to be on a sort of moralistic adventure which started back with Braveheart. I think that Hollywood specifically, but the artistic community in general, consider him a threat to the message they are trying to sell and are looking for excuses to ruin him in the eyes of the public. Gibson, IMO, is in open rebellion against Hollywood. "In the final analysis, secularism is little more than another religion the first amendment should be protecting the American people against."
Stan Shannon wrote: I think it goes a lot deeper than that. His dad is apparently a loony toons nobody, so why should anyone care so much about his opinions unless they had specific evidence that the son was trying to promulgate the father's beliefs? Mel Gibson has many of the same beliefs as his father. One of the beliefs of their religious group is the rejection of the Second Vatican Council. "Gibson, who is member of an ultraconservative Catholic movement that rejects Vatican II" In addition to a number of other things, the Second Valican Council "forcefully repudiated the idea of collective Jewish responsibility for Jesus' death" ( http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.09.26/news5.gibson.html[^] ) ------------------------------------------ Well, let that be a lesson to you about going around throwing out bathwater without checking its contents first.
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Wow!! Safire is really out of control this time. Gibson's father is an outspoken holocaust denier? What a joke... is he Ernst Zundel? Does he have his own propaganda machine churning out lies? No... he is a dotty old guy, who has been hounded by Safire and his ilk looking for sensational quotes to use against his son, Mel. I saw the movie, and found it intriguing, but didn't really like it, because it was focused too much on the physical suffering of Jesus. My feeling is that if you had the weight of all human sin on your soul, your suffering would be much more intense than merely a physical scourging. But that kind of suffering is hard to cinematically depict. Plus it is very difficult to capture "holiness" on film, which takes away from the utter contrast that would have existed between Jesus and those who crucified him. Still... I'm going to see it again. JM
John McIlroy wrote: Wow!! Safire is really out of control this time. Gibson's father is an outspoken holocaust denier? What a joke... is he Ernst Zundel? Does he have his own propaganda machine churning out lies? No... he is a dotty old guy, who has been hounded by Safire and his ilk looking for sensational quotes to use against his son, Mel. Some more background from an Australian right winger. http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/01/1078117354823.html[^] John Carson "I wish to propose for the reader's favourable consideration a doctrine which may, I fear, appear wildly paradoxical and subversive. The doctrine in question is this: that it is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true." - Bertrand Russell
