Computer Science
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
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I'm about to graduate with a Computer Engineering degree. I get the best of both worlds - hardware and software. A person doesn't need to be a CS graduate in order to be a good programmer. I know a guy who was a roadie for Guns 'N Roses who one day decided to be a programmer, and now he makes a six-figure salary as a code monkey. I actually value working with people like him because they offer different perspectives on problems (outside the box, if you will) than people who have learned about programming from "inside the box." All it takes is the desire to work as a programmer and the ability to think. Jon Sagara "After all is said and done, usually more is said than done." -- Unknown
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
No, you don't need a CS degree. (rant which has little to do with your post) However, just so NOBODY misunderstands, EVERYONE SHOULD GET A DEGREE. To all those morons who say you don't and thus are risking the future of other people, time to check into the real world. With the economic downturn in the US, degrees are becoming required just to get your resume sent to someone. DEGREE != Ability. DEGREE = getting an interview. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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No, you don't need a CS degree. (rant which has little to do with your post) However, just so NOBODY misunderstands, EVERYONE SHOULD GET A DEGREE. To all those morons who say you don't and thus are risking the future of other people, time to check into the real world. With the economic downturn in the US, degrees are becoming required just to get your resume sent to someone. DEGREE != Ability. DEGREE = getting an interview. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
DEGREE != Ability. DEGREE = getting an interview. I agree on that. Things are changing fast. // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
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I have no formal computer related education and I've survived 12 years in the industry. I'm not sure whether I'm a good programmer but none of the people I've worked for have had any complaints about my coding or design skills. (Some complaints about my attitude though :-) ) Michael :-)
I'm not sure whether I'm a good programmer but none of the people I've worked for have had any complaints about my coding or design skills. Don't worry. I've seen some programmers (even one who recently graduated who worked at my place for like 3 years) be the worst programmers in the world, not to mention the most deceitful ones because they hide behind the skill that the average person doesn't know much about. Formal education is only good if you know how to use it.;) Frank
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
I bombed out of Pharmacology school, And when I say "bombed out", I mean it with both meanings. :-) I've got some 3rd and 4th yr CS type courses under my belt, but no Degree. And will probably never get one. I don't believe you have to be a CS grad to be a great programmer, It helps to give you the fundamentals, But its not the real word, where you have to "do stuff". I've met 'some' developers who were self taught from books and on the job, and they have impressed me more than 'some' CS grads. Regardz Colin J Davies colin@vmtu.com
Love comes between labia and Lust in the dictionary. Quote from Gimme Gimme Gimme
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
I studied Electronic & Electrical Engineering at the University of Surrey. Although we studied a Computer Engineering as part of the course, the topics presented were more hardware orientated than software (C++ and UML didn't even exist in 1985!), and although interesting at the time, aren't directly relevant now. We were taught Pascal (I already knew it :) ), Z-80 assembler (ditto - I used to write CP/M system software for fun :rolleyes: ) and Algol-68 :mad:. For some reason (read: one lecturer's prejudice) we weren't taught C!! Fortunately, I'd already taught myself (using a public domain floating point Z-80 C compiler...). With the exception of a UML course 4 years back, everything else I've picked up is self-taught. The way I see it, if you can learn, you will learn - courses just give you a leg-up. :) Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;)) -
Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
Hi Fazlul. I am also an electrical engineer by degree (Bachelors from ITT Tech in Seattle), but moved to programming when I discovered that it was more to my liking. I had two full quarters of DOS based C++ programming (Borland Turbo C++ 3) during my time there. On my own, I've learned Win32 C/C++ programming, as well as Visual Basic, ASP, HTML, XML/XSL, and currently, .NET and Palm programming. Do I have a CS degree? Nope. Just an unquenchable desire to learn as much as I can. :) Jamie Nordmeyer Portland, Oregon, USA
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No, you don't need a CS degree. (rant which has little to do with your post) However, just so NOBODY misunderstands, EVERYONE SHOULD GET A DEGREE. To all those morons who say you don't and thus are risking the future of other people, time to check into the real world. With the economic downturn in the US, degrees are becoming required just to get your resume sent to someone. DEGREE != Ability. DEGREE = getting an interview. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
DEGREE != Ability. DEGREE = getting an interview. While I agree that a degree is valuable, so is experience. When I was just out of college with a CS degree but little professional experience, I know one can feel a bit like a leper. In other words, interview = degree + experience But I agree. I have a CS degree, and I'm glad I do. Craig Dodge This message printed on 100% recycled electrons.
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No, you don't need a CS degree. (rant which has little to do with your post) However, just so NOBODY misunderstands, EVERYONE SHOULD GET A DEGREE. To all those morons who say you don't and thus are risking the future of other people, time to check into the real world. With the economic downturn in the US, degrees are becoming required just to get your resume sent to someone. DEGREE != Ability. DEGREE = getting an interview. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
EVERYONE SHOULD GET A DEGREE. You present a good arguement but I think you miss one scenario, I'm self employed and getting a degree for me would be irrelevant now, I have often thought of going and doing a theology or cosmology degree, purely out of interest in those subjects. And work wise yes a degree is useful for getting an interview, I'm unsure about 'ability'. Large companies that use HR departments thrive on people with degrees, But smaller business's such as my own, look for people who can do the job, not what qualifications they have got. Although I always take them into consideration. Regardz Colin J Davies colin@vmtu.com
Love comes between labia and Lust in the dictionary. Quote from Gimme Gimme Gimme
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No, you don't need a CS degree. (rant which has little to do with your post) However, just so NOBODY misunderstands, EVERYONE SHOULD GET A DEGREE. To all those morons who say you don't and thus are risking the future of other people, time to check into the real world. With the economic downturn in the US, degrees are becoming required just to get your resume sent to someone. DEGREE != Ability. DEGREE = getting an interview. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
Sad but true. Many a time in the last few years, all the good jobs have been closed to me because of my lack of a degree. Which I think is a crock of ****, I have 8 years MFC Experience / 12 years commercial development. Yet they won't even talk to me. Michael :-)
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
I think formal education definitely helps, but not in the ways you might expect. I learned a lot of "nuts and bolts" stuff on the job. Things like MFC, Perl, Windows programming, etc. I learned C in high school, and although I did learn C++ in college, I certainly could have learned it by a book, practicing, etc. Where having a formal education (for me, undergraduate CS degree) helped were in a few aspects. 1. Teamwork. We had several classes that involved parners or group efforts. And most of the time, we were allowed, sometimes encouraged, to work together on homework assignments (but not exams... :) ) 2. Fundamentals, like code design, maintainability, etc. I find that people without a CS background tend to be weak in these areas (especially maintainability.) 3. Connections and networking. Even still, a lot of getting a job is who you know. The more people you meet, the more opportunities you have, plain and simple. The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
I've been coding since 12 years old when my Father took a Microbee (Australian) computer home from work and I got to play around with that in Logo. Then I got my own and learn't Basic, at 13 had a program published in a magazine that produced a random maze. Since then programming for fun until 18 when I went to University to study Computer Science, and yes - I belive the ideas they teach are very useful, and every programmer should go to University, but its best to have programmed before University. Generally speaking, but not always true, those people who never programmed before university didn't get the intuitive feel for code but could produce it anyway. So while they can produce code, the code that is produced is often bloated and over engineered. People don't seem to realise that for every line of code produced your going to have to go back and change it later, if you produce 600,000 lines of code in a project, it becomes near impossible to change. It seems attractive to some people to produce a large amount of code as it seems like a lot of work is getting done. I see code as a lever, the smaller it is to get the job done the better. Basically coding has to be a part of you, you have to live it, however you get to that state doesn't really matter. Philip
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Sad but true. Many a time in the last few years, all the good jobs have been closed to me because of my lack of a degree. Which I think is a crock of ****, I have 8 years MFC Experience / 12 years commercial development. Yet they won't even talk to me. Michael :-)
That's complete bollocks. A degree counts for nothing once you've got a couple of years relevant experience. Any employer who can't see that is just shutting themselves off from the very people they need. That's their loss in my book - if they're that dumb, you wouldn't want to work for them anyway... ;P Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;)) -
EVERYONE SHOULD GET A DEGREE. You present a good arguement but I think you miss one scenario, I'm self employed and getting a degree for me would be irrelevant now, I have often thought of going and doing a theology or cosmology degree, purely out of interest in those subjects. And work wise yes a degree is useful for getting an interview, I'm unsure about 'ability'. Large companies that use HR departments thrive on people with degrees, But smaller business's such as my own, look for people who can do the job, not what qualifications they have got. Although I always take them into consideration. Regardz Colin J Davies colin@vmtu.com
Love comes between labia and Lust in the dictionary. Quote from Gimme Gimme Gimme
I have often thought of going and doing a theology ... Hang around the lounge, talk to Christian - that should covermost of yur theology needs. or cosmology degree Perhaps Chris can prepare a tutorial of two ?? ----------------------------- "My name is Sven und I am from Sveden. I am making das moovies mit mine friend Inga, fvor ve are very poor." - Christian Graus, Oct 29 2001 -----------------------------
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That's complete bollocks. A degree counts for nothing once you've got a couple of years relevant experience. Any employer who can't see that is just shutting themselves off from the very people they need. That's their loss in my book - if they're that dumb, you wouldn't want to work for them anyway... ;P Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;))A degree counts for nothing once you've got a couple of years relevant experience. That may sound logical, but most corporate HR folks think differently. They want to see both of our degrees and experiences together. I know it sucks, but that's the reality, especially in this tight IT market. // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
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That's complete bollocks. A degree counts for nothing once you've got a couple of years relevant experience. Any employer who can't see that is just shutting themselves off from the very people they need. That's their loss in my book - if they're that dumb, you wouldn't want to work for them anyway... ;P Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;)) -
EVERYONE SHOULD GET A DEGREE. You present a good arguement but I think you miss one scenario, I'm self employed and getting a degree for me would be irrelevant now, I have often thought of going and doing a theology or cosmology degree, purely out of interest in those subjects. And work wise yes a degree is useful for getting an interview, I'm unsure about 'ability'. Large companies that use HR departments thrive on people with degrees, But smaller business's such as my own, look for people who can do the job, not what qualifications they have got. Although I always take them into consideration. Regardz Colin J Davies colin@vmtu.com
Love comes between labia and Lust in the dictionary. Quote from Gimme Gimme Gimme
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A degree counts for nothing once you've got a couple of years relevant experience. That may sound logical, but most corporate HR folks think differently. They want to see both of our degrees and experiences together. I know it sucks, but that's the reality, especially in this tight IT market. // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
Hmmm...in my company the developers do the interviewing. The managers generally defer to our gut feeling rather than what's on the CV. HR? We don't have such a thing. :-D Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;)) -
DEGREE != Ability. DEGREE = getting an interview. While I agree that a degree is valuable, so is experience. When I was just out of college with a CS degree but little professional experience, I know one can feel a bit like a leper. In other words, interview = degree + experience But I agree. I have a CS degree, and I'm glad I do. Craig Dodge This message printed on 100% recycled electrons.
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
i did. it helped. i know a lot of useful things about CS that people who didn't get degrees in CS don't know. does that make me a better programmer than those who didn't get degrees in CS? in many cases, yes. but some people are just gifted and school or not they are simply better than me. i don't believe you have to know anything about design patterns to be a good programmer. you might have to know about that stuff to be a good architect, but that's not the same as programming, once your development team is sufficiently large. to be a good programmer, you have to know the language well enough to choose efficient and appropriate ways of doing things. you have to know common algorithms, common techniques, common ways of doing things correctly. you have to understand the role of a programmer in an organization (programmers != marketing != design != management). you have to know how to work on a team. you have to know how to read and implement a specification, etc.. you can learn a lot of it on your own, or you can learn it in school. either way, there's a lot to learn if you want to be good (good being "better than competent"). a CS degree will (should) give you a bit of all of that, but you'll get a lot more of it in the workplace. -c