Computer Science
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No, you don't need a CS degree. (rant which has little to do with your post) However, just so NOBODY misunderstands, EVERYONE SHOULD GET A DEGREE. To all those morons who say you don't and thus are risking the future of other people, time to check into the real world. With the economic downturn in the US, degrees are becoming required just to get your resume sent to someone. DEGREE != Ability. DEGREE = getting an interview. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
Sad but true. Many a time in the last few years, all the good jobs have been closed to me because of my lack of a degree. Which I think is a crock of ****, I have 8 years MFC Experience / 12 years commercial development. Yet they won't even talk to me. Michael :-)
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
I think formal education definitely helps, but not in the ways you might expect. I learned a lot of "nuts and bolts" stuff on the job. Things like MFC, Perl, Windows programming, etc. I learned C in high school, and although I did learn C++ in college, I certainly could have learned it by a book, practicing, etc. Where having a formal education (for me, undergraduate CS degree) helped were in a few aspects. 1. Teamwork. We had several classes that involved parners or group efforts. And most of the time, we were allowed, sometimes encouraged, to work together on homework assignments (but not exams... :) ) 2. Fundamentals, like code design, maintainability, etc. I find that people without a CS background tend to be weak in these areas (especially maintainability.) 3. Connections and networking. Even still, a lot of getting a job is who you know. The more people you meet, the more opportunities you have, plain and simple. The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
I've been coding since 12 years old when my Father took a Microbee (Australian) computer home from work and I got to play around with that in Logo. Then I got my own and learn't Basic, at 13 had a program published in a magazine that produced a random maze. Since then programming for fun until 18 when I went to University to study Computer Science, and yes - I belive the ideas they teach are very useful, and every programmer should go to University, but its best to have programmed before University. Generally speaking, but not always true, those people who never programmed before university didn't get the intuitive feel for code but could produce it anyway. So while they can produce code, the code that is produced is often bloated and over engineered. People don't seem to realise that for every line of code produced your going to have to go back and change it later, if you produce 600,000 lines of code in a project, it becomes near impossible to change. It seems attractive to some people to produce a large amount of code as it seems like a lot of work is getting done. I see code as a lever, the smaller it is to get the job done the better. Basically coding has to be a part of you, you have to live it, however you get to that state doesn't really matter. Philip
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Sad but true. Many a time in the last few years, all the good jobs have been closed to me because of my lack of a degree. Which I think is a crock of ****, I have 8 years MFC Experience / 12 years commercial development. Yet they won't even talk to me. Michael :-)
That's complete bollocks. A degree counts for nothing once you've got a couple of years relevant experience. Any employer who can't see that is just shutting themselves off from the very people they need. That's their loss in my book - if they're that dumb, you wouldn't want to work for them anyway... ;P Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;)) -
EVERYONE SHOULD GET A DEGREE. You present a good arguement but I think you miss one scenario, I'm self employed and getting a degree for me would be irrelevant now, I have often thought of going and doing a theology or cosmology degree, purely out of interest in those subjects. And work wise yes a degree is useful for getting an interview, I'm unsure about 'ability'. Large companies that use HR departments thrive on people with degrees, But smaller business's such as my own, look for people who can do the job, not what qualifications they have got. Although I always take them into consideration. Regardz Colin J Davies colin@vmtu.com
Love comes between labia and Lust in the dictionary. Quote from Gimme Gimme Gimme
I have often thought of going and doing a theology ... Hang around the lounge, talk to Christian - that should covermost of yur theology needs. or cosmology degree Perhaps Chris can prepare a tutorial of two ?? ----------------------------- "My name is Sven und I am from Sveden. I am making das moovies mit mine friend Inga, fvor ve are very poor." - Christian Graus, Oct 29 2001 -----------------------------
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That's complete bollocks. A degree counts for nothing once you've got a couple of years relevant experience. Any employer who can't see that is just shutting themselves off from the very people they need. That's their loss in my book - if they're that dumb, you wouldn't want to work for them anyway... ;P Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;))A degree counts for nothing once you've got a couple of years relevant experience. That may sound logical, but most corporate HR folks think differently. They want to see both of our degrees and experiences together. I know it sucks, but that's the reality, especially in this tight IT market. // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
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That's complete bollocks. A degree counts for nothing once you've got a couple of years relevant experience. Any employer who can't see that is just shutting themselves off from the very people they need. That's their loss in my book - if they're that dumb, you wouldn't want to work for them anyway... ;P Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;)) -
EVERYONE SHOULD GET A DEGREE. You present a good arguement but I think you miss one scenario, I'm self employed and getting a degree for me would be irrelevant now, I have often thought of going and doing a theology or cosmology degree, purely out of interest in those subjects. And work wise yes a degree is useful for getting an interview, I'm unsure about 'ability'. Large companies that use HR departments thrive on people with degrees, But smaller business's such as my own, look for people who can do the job, not what qualifications they have got. Although I always take them into consideration. Regardz Colin J Davies colin@vmtu.com
Love comes between labia and Lust in the dictionary. Quote from Gimme Gimme Gimme
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A degree counts for nothing once you've got a couple of years relevant experience. That may sound logical, but most corporate HR folks think differently. They want to see both of our degrees and experiences together. I know it sucks, but that's the reality, especially in this tight IT market. // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
Hmmm...in my company the developers do the interviewing. The managers generally defer to our gut feeling rather than what's on the CV. HR? We don't have such a thing. :-D Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;)) -
DEGREE != Ability. DEGREE = getting an interview. While I agree that a degree is valuable, so is experience. When I was just out of college with a CS degree but little professional experience, I know one can feel a bit like a leper. In other words, interview = degree + experience But I agree. I have a CS degree, and I'm glad I do. Craig Dodge This message printed on 100% recycled electrons.
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
i did. it helped. i know a lot of useful things about CS that people who didn't get degrees in CS don't know. does that make me a better programmer than those who didn't get degrees in CS? in many cases, yes. but some people are just gifted and school or not they are simply better than me. i don't believe you have to know anything about design patterns to be a good programmer. you might have to know about that stuff to be a good architect, but that's not the same as programming, once your development team is sufficiently large. to be a good programmer, you have to know the language well enough to choose efficient and appropriate ways of doing things. you have to know common algorithms, common techniques, common ways of doing things correctly. you have to understand the role of a programmer in an organization (programmers != marketing != design != management). you have to know how to work on a team. you have to know how to read and implement a specification, etc.. you can learn a lot of it on your own, or you can learn it in school. either way, there's a lot to learn if you want to be good (good being "better than competent"). a CS degree will (should) give you a bit of all of that, but you'll get a lot more of it in the workplace. -c
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Sure is....but in my first job (I was a sponsored student in my final year) they didn't even bother asking whether I got the degree until I'd been there a couple of months... I suspect this varies from country to country. Is the US more hung up on this than the UK I wonder? Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;)) -
But if you ever find yourself looking for a job again... But getting a degree now is questionable. I was more talking about the kids just coming out of highschool. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
But if you ever find yourself looking for a job again... Fair point, many times I'd like to be a 9 to 5er once again. I was more talking about the kids just coming out of highschool. Military service is also a good option but getting a degree is probably better for the HR departments, So I agree. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies colin@vmtu.com
Love comes between labia and Lust in the dictionary. Quote from Gimme Gimme Gimme
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That's complete bollocks. A degree counts for nothing once you've got a couple of years relevant experience. Any employer who can't see that is just shutting themselves off from the very people they need. That's their loss in my book - if they're that dumb, you wouldn't want to work for them anyway... ;P Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;))That's one up on the profanity filter... ;P Do Yanks and Aussies even know what bollocks means? :laugh: Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;)) -
i did. it helped. i know a lot of useful things about CS that people who didn't get degrees in CS don't know. does that make me a better programmer than those who didn't get degrees in CS? in many cases, yes. but some people are just gifted and school or not they are simply better than me. i don't believe you have to know anything about design patterns to be a good programmer. you might have to know about that stuff to be a good architect, but that's not the same as programming, once your development team is sufficiently large. to be a good programmer, you have to know the language well enough to choose efficient and appropriate ways of doing things. you have to know common algorithms, common techniques, common ways of doing things correctly. you have to understand the role of a programmer in an organization (programmers != marketing != design != management). you have to know how to work on a team. you have to know how to read and implement a specification, etc.. you can learn a lot of it on your own, or you can learn it in school. either way, there's a lot to learn if you want to be good (good being "better than competent"). a CS degree will (should) give you a bit of all of that, but you'll get a lot more of it in the workplace. -c
i know a lot of useful things about CS that people who didn't get degrees in CS don't know. Such as? any specific suggestion? ..so that non-CS'ers can do a catch-up? // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
Imho, the most important thing about being a good programmer is to be able to think like a good programmer. This requires (1) a good knowledge of theoretical fundamentals as well as (2) awareness about real-world engineering problems. Getting a degree in an appropriate field usually (but not always) ensures (1) and relevant experience usually (but not always) ensures (2). I've seen enough degree-less programmers who blow me away and enough degreed programmers who should (and I say this respectfully) change careers. But I've rarely seen inexperienced programmers who have a good grasp of real-world engineering problems. Personally, I have a BS (Physics/Math) and an MS (CS) and have been programming professionally for 17 years. I'm always learning something from others, and when that stops happening it will be because I no longer program or because I let my ego get the better of me. /ravi "There is always one more bug..." http://www.ravib.com ravib@ravib.com
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Just wondering how many of us went through formal computer science education in schools / universities? I personally graduated as an electrical engineer but was fortunate to have extensive CS courses both in my university and at work. I also know Chris came from a Physics background. Do we need to be a CS graduate to become a good programmer? I know it helps in understanding and designing large scale projects, but can’t we do the same by learning those CS jargons (such as design patterns etc.) in our spare time? Also how does this relate to the programming experience in real world? Curious mind wants to know... // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
I have a degree in CS, and It's not a degree in Programming. CS did not show me how to design large scale applications or how to handle exceptions and any other STL hacks ... my "study" showed me the theory of CS and not really the practical aspect of CS. We studied the bases of CS, language theory, theorical stuff ( complexity ), basic Software engineering, AI theory, DB theory, math ( stats, probs, ... ), a bit of hardware theory. most of these classes were in the 2 first years ... ... get the picture ... but we also had programming classes, very, very basic, and were closelly bounded to the theorical classes, we used languages like prolog, Miranda ( functionnal programming ), Simula, Pascal, and more specific stuff like VHDL (hardware simulation). But most of these programming classes were in the 3rd year ... For some, it's a flaw, for some others, it's an advantage ... FYI, that was at "Universite de Montreal" ,and most "programmers" quit before the 2nd year started because it was to theorical ... and not enough practical ... Max. P.S. I don't think the goal of "higher study" is to show you how to program, but it's more to show you how things work, and how you can get the information and resources to do your programming tasks.
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I have often thought of going and doing a theology ... Hang around the lounge, talk to Christian - that should covermost of yur theology needs. or cosmology degree Perhaps Chris can prepare a tutorial of two ?? ----------------------------- "My name is Sven und I am from Sveden. I am making das moovies mit mine friend Inga, fvor ve are very poor." - Christian Graus, Oct 29 2001 -----------------------------
Hang around the lounge, talk to Christian - that should covermost of yur theology needs. I don't want to appear pendantic once again but I will :-). Christian expouses a certain brand of Christian beliefs and theology. But true theology encompasses other faiths and religeons as well. "or cosmology degree" Perhaps Chris can prepare a tutorial of two ?? I'd like that, although true Cosmology utilises 3 requisite sciences, Physics, Astronomy, and Theology. (a bit of adevanced Math does no harm either) It is interesting to note that to study Christian theology 3 centuries ago you had to first study Physics. The mentality being how could you study the c metaphysical world without understanding the common world. But since Physics and theology have drifted to being poles apart. The guts of it Christian Theology couldn't alter its tenaments fast enough to keep up with science. Regardz Colin J Davies colin@vmtu.com
Love comes between labia and Lust in the dictionary. Quote from Gimme Gimme Gimme
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When you are trying to get your resume on someone's desk, experience doesn't mean anything during a downturn. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
I disagree - it depends on the company you're applying to. I know for a fact my company will look for relevant experience rather than formal qualifications because I'm one of the interviewers. ;) In our case, the formal stuff might as well not be there as far as we're are concerned (that goes for professional qualifications too) - we look for experience and the ability to work flexibly and productively within a team above anything else. The rest is frankly not relevant to us. But as I say, every company is different. Andy Metcalfe - Sonardyne International Ltd
Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++ 5.0/6.0
"I'm just another 'S' bend in the internet. A ton of stuff goes through my system, and some of the hairer, stickier and lumpier stuff sticks." - Chris Maunder (I just couldn't let that one past ;)) -
I've been coding since 12 years old when my Father took a Microbee (Australian) computer home from work and I got to play around with that in Logo. Then I got my own and learn't Basic, at 13 had a program published in a magazine that produced a random maze. Since then programming for fun until 18 when I went to University to study Computer Science, and yes - I belive the ideas they teach are very useful, and every programmer should go to University, but its best to have programmed before University. Generally speaking, but not always true, those people who never programmed before university didn't get the intuitive feel for code but could produce it anyway. So while they can produce code, the code that is produced is often bloated and over engineered. People don't seem to realise that for every line of code produced your going to have to go back and change it later, if you produce 600,000 lines of code in a project, it becomes near impossible to change. It seems attractive to some people to produce a large amount of code as it seems like a lot of work is getting done. I see code as a lever, the smaller it is to get the job done the better. Basically coding has to be a part of you, you have to live it, however you get to that state doesn't really matter. Philip
Couldn't agree more with you, Philip. I used to program in BASIC at 14 and learned many things before going to degree program that even most of the final year students didn't know. I have a 4 year bachelors degree in Computer Systems Engineering and like Jon Sagara said "I get the best of both worlds - hardware and software." Kudos to Jon. My experience with people with/with out CS degree has been mixed. I have seen really morons with CS degree and really talented programmers with out a CS degree. But then I know few people with out CS who lake very basics specially a guy who is a Mechanical Engineer and he does progamming to such an extent that he can write 1000's of lines of code a day but actually only 10 lines are worth mentioning. I also like your analogy of code with lever :laugh: :) ;) ;P :-D :cool: Farhan Noor Qureshi