Will Mono Become the Preferred Platform for Linux Development?
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You make a compelling argument, Jim, and I can't specifically refute it. But one thing comes to mind, borrowing from STNG: assimilation. Regardless of the cost of a platform or the relative merits, I think that for most of the world's software to be running on a Microsoft-based framework is something good for Microsoft. Here's a scenario: 1. Mono is successful. Maybe somebody else does a .NET port to the MAC. 2. Microsoft writes the "next killer app" in .NET. 3. Now, all of a sudden, Microsoft's user base is, well, everyone. So, very sneakily, they are assimilating the "others", ultimately for their own profit. And the irony is, this assimilation will occur under the guise of other people's open source projects which they created to try and stifle Microsoft, while all the time actually playing into MS's hand. I bet Bill will be laughing all the way to the bank. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C#
2. Microsoft writes the "next killer app" in .NET. Possible, but how about this (and please note I'm kind of playing Devils Advicate at this point): For most of MS's history, as I know it, the only "killer app(s)" they've made that has *also* been a cash cow (and that's kind of what matters at some point, XBox, stinger, et al, not withstanding) are Windows and Office. Nothing else has made *profitable* market penetration. IE: gave it away for free and they could leverage Windows WMP: gave away client for free and could leverage Windows, and while the WMP server stuff costs, I think it is not a huge money maker (not that they don't want it to be) Outlook Express : Free, again leveraging Windows Outlook: (costs) but part of Office Hardware: Windows CE : Leverage developer knowledge of WIn32 API, basically leveraging knowledge and awareness of Windows. And as I understand it, not hugely profitable. XBox: Talk about bending over and taking it! Thank god for Windows and Office profit. Again a version of windows for software to leverage dev experience and make porting games easier. Stinger : Windows CE redux. So MS's track record of a profitable "killer app" outside of Windows or Office, AFAIK isn't too hot. Isn't (wasn't?) one of their corporate mottos "Windows Everywhere" ? Another point against the apps on other platforms, AFAIK every app or framework that they have had for other platforms has kind of gotten dropped, with the exception of, once again, Office for OSX. IE is dead on OSX (can't say I blame them, Safari kicks ass, IMHO), WMP isn't current I don't think (could be wrong), MFC used to be multiplatform such that you could use it for Mac Classic (pre OSX) and I think that's been dropped. IE for Solaris? Is that even available or maintained? Just some random thoughts :) ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
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You make a compelling argument, Jim, and I can't specifically refute it. But one thing comes to mind, borrowing from STNG: assimilation. Regardless of the cost of a platform or the relative merits, I think that for most of the world's software to be running on a Microsoft-based framework is something good for Microsoft. Here's a scenario: 1. Mono is successful. Maybe somebody else does a .NET port to the MAC. 2. Microsoft writes the "next killer app" in .NET. 3. Now, all of a sudden, Microsoft's user base is, well, everyone. So, very sneakily, they are assimilating the "others", ultimately for their own profit. And the irony is, this assimilation will occur under the guise of other people's open source projects which they created to try and stifle Microsoft, while all the time actually playing into MS's hand. I bet Bill will be laughing all the way to the bank. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C#
Here's one more point, if you will. Given these possibilities, and MS's history, let's assume Mono is largely usable, especially for ASP 6 months from now, and mostly stable for most production uses (wildly optimistic, but humor me :) ). Would you be willing to "bet" a client contract on this? Would you be willing to deal with the possible legal and or technical repercussions should patent or other IP issues get chased after by MS? For myself I wouldn't touch the stuff till someone puts in writing, signed by MS (and whoever else needs to), that they are going to give a free and clear license to whom ever wants to use this stuff, and clearly enumerate exactly what people can and cannot use. AFAIK this does not exist. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
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Here's one more point, if you will. Given these possibilities, and MS's history, let's assume Mono is largely usable, especially for ASP 6 months from now, and mostly stable for most production uses (wildly optimistic, but humor me :) ). Would you be willing to "bet" a client contract on this? Would you be willing to deal with the possible legal and or technical repercussions should patent or other IP issues get chased after by MS? For myself I wouldn't touch the stuff till someone puts in writing, signed by MS (and whoever else needs to), that they are going to give a free and clear license to whom ever wants to use this stuff, and clearly enumerate exactly what people can and cannot use. AFAIK this does not exist. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
Jim Crafton wrote: For myself I wouldn't touch the stuff till someone puts in writing, signed by MS (and whoever else needs to), that they are going to give a free and clear license to whom ever wants to use this stuff, and clearly enumerate exactly what people can and cannot use. AFAIK this does not exist. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Hehe. Good point. On the other hand, if the client says "use Linux", it'd be nice to know I can develop in .NET-mono. I'm not sure how much time I would spend worrying about possible patents infringements and stuff--the client pays me, I do the job, I leave. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C#
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2. Microsoft writes the "next killer app" in .NET. Possible, but how about this (and please note I'm kind of playing Devils Advicate at this point): For most of MS's history, as I know it, the only "killer app(s)" they've made that has *also* been a cash cow (and that's kind of what matters at some point, XBox, stinger, et al, not withstanding) are Windows and Office. Nothing else has made *profitable* market penetration. IE: gave it away for free and they could leverage Windows WMP: gave away client for free and could leverage Windows, and while the WMP server stuff costs, I think it is not a huge money maker (not that they don't want it to be) Outlook Express : Free, again leveraging Windows Outlook: (costs) but part of Office Hardware: Windows CE : Leverage developer knowledge of WIn32 API, basically leveraging knowledge and awareness of Windows. And as I understand it, not hugely profitable. XBox: Talk about bending over and taking it! Thank god for Windows and Office profit. Again a version of windows for software to leverage dev experience and make porting games easier. Stinger : Windows CE redux. So MS's track record of a profitable "killer app" outside of Windows or Office, AFAIK isn't too hot. Isn't (wasn't?) one of their corporate mottos "Windows Everywhere" ? Another point against the apps on other platforms, AFAIK every app or framework that they have had for other platforms has kind of gotten dropped, with the exception of, once again, Office for OSX. IE is dead on OSX (can't say I blame them, Safari kicks ass, IMHO), WMP isn't current I don't think (could be wrong), MFC used to be multiplatform such that you could use it for Mac Classic (pre OSX) and I think that's been dropped. IE for Solaris? Is that even available or maintained? Just some random thoughts :) ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
Jim Crafton wrote: Nothing else has made *profitable* market penetration. SQL Server? I hear you, but I'm still not convinced. There's something deeper agenda going on in the bowels of Redmond, IMHO. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C#
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Jim Crafton wrote: For myself I wouldn't touch the stuff till someone puts in writing, signed by MS (and whoever else needs to), that they are going to give a free and clear license to whom ever wants to use this stuff, and clearly enumerate exactly what people can and cannot use. AFAIK this does not exist. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Hehe. Good point. On the other hand, if the client says "use Linux", it'd be nice to know I can develop in .NET-mono. I'm not sure how much time I would spend worrying about possible patents infringements and stuff--the client pays me, I do the job, I leave. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C#
OK well here I'm probably gonna impress everyone with my ignorance of the law (as if I hadn't already :) ), but aren't there some laws about this that you as the consultant have to live up to? I mean if the client says, "use linux" and you decide to use mono, and MS then decides to go after Mono (Novell?Ximian?) for patent infringment, etc do you have any liabilities? Can you really just leave once the job is done? That'd be awesome if you could but I was under the impression that it was a bit more complex than that. Yet another reason I hate software patents is the absurd amount of time we developers rehash and debate basically stupid issues like this. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
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OK well here I'm probably gonna impress everyone with my ignorance of the law (as if I hadn't already :) ), but aren't there some laws about this that you as the consultant have to live up to? I mean if the client says, "use linux" and you decide to use mono, and MS then decides to go after Mono (Novell?Ximian?) for patent infringment, etc do you have any liabilities? Can you really just leave once the job is done? That'd be awesome if you could but I was under the impression that it was a bit more complex than that. Yet another reason I hate software patents is the absurd amount of time we developers rehash and debate basically stupid issues like this. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
Jim Crafton wrote: Yet another reason I hate software patents is the absurd amount of time we developers rehash and debate basically stupid issues like this. Yeah, I agree. Marc, the Ostrich. That's the way I like it. :-D There's a lot of complexities here. First, the "if" MS decides to go after patent infringment Second, how long that takes (as technology keeps moving) Third, whether they win Fourth, what are the settlement terms? Is is retroactive? As for consulting, if I'm not doing anything illegal *now*, why would I be in trouble if my actions are deemed illegal in the *future*? I simply stop doing what has now become illegal (harder for some than others). If I'm still in the job when a settlement is reached, again, is the decision such that it affects ongoing projects, or new ones? If I inform my client that my activities are now illegal, and he says "continue anyways", then yes, that's a bad thing. Anyways, it's way too complicated to play the "what-if" game at 10:36 PM on a Friday. :-D Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C#
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Personally, I think that would be cool. And a port to the MAC too. Isn't that what Microsoft wants? Then, we could actually write apps that run on all these different platforms. I mean, what's the point of the IL anyways? It's not just to support optimizing Intel chips. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C#
And one more thing! [You got me ranting at this point, so feel free to ignore this!] One of the main reasons Mono annoys me so much is that IMHO C++ is a great, kick ass language. Instead of doing the endless repeats of 2nd hand MS knock-offs why not put all that energy and know how into improving C++? Why not make a special version of it (with extensions that you could turn on or off, just like you can with Exception Handling and RTTI) that address these features that people seem so intrigued with in C#? For example, - add first class RTTI to C++ - Add first class Garbage Collection (again, this would be optional, and could be turned off) - Develop a truly kick ass C++ framework to use that is unencumbered by the GPL (hint, hint, VCF :)) - Add first class property and event support, a la C# property and delegate syntax, or something similar. - Come up with a standard ABI and AGRESSIVELY push it to ALL C++ vendors, volunteer help, whatever, to amke this happen, so that we can share components/classes at the binary level. There are TONS of things you could do to make C++ even more of a kick ass langauge. Why wait for the folks on the standards committee to argue, debate, blather, etc why not push the language forward by the very people who actually use the damn thing in the real world!! ( I strongly doubt Bjarne has every written a real world, production level app, I could be wrong though). With all the effort put into Mono we could have had a really kick ass GCC C++ compiler instead of the rather lame clunky thing that currently exists (and yes I have used it - this is coming from experience on both Win32 and linux using 2.95, and the various 3.x series). Instead we have to put all that effort into *starting all over again*!!!!! Sigh... OK I feel better now. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
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Jim Crafton wrote: Yet another reason I hate software patents is the absurd amount of time we developers rehash and debate basically stupid issues like this. Yeah, I agree. Marc, the Ostrich. That's the way I like it. :-D There's a lot of complexities here. First, the "if" MS decides to go after patent infringment Second, how long that takes (as technology keeps moving) Third, whether they win Fourth, what are the settlement terms? Is is retroactive? As for consulting, if I'm not doing anything illegal *now*, why would I be in trouble if my actions are deemed illegal in the *future*? I simply stop doing what has now become illegal (harder for some than others). If I'm still in the job when a settlement is reached, again, is the decision such that it affects ongoing projects, or new ones? If I inform my client that my activities are now illegal, and he says "continue anyways", then yes, that's a bad thing. Anyways, it's way too complicated to play the "what-if" game at 10:36 PM on a Friday. :-D Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C#
Anyways, it's way too complicated to play the "what-if" game at 10:36 PM on a Friday. Wimp, wimp, wimp, wimp, wimp!!! And you just got me going, you TEASE!! ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
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And one more thing! [You got me ranting at this point, so feel free to ignore this!] One of the main reasons Mono annoys me so much is that IMHO C++ is a great, kick ass language. Instead of doing the endless repeats of 2nd hand MS knock-offs why not put all that energy and know how into improving C++? Why not make a special version of it (with extensions that you could turn on or off, just like you can with Exception Handling and RTTI) that address these features that people seem so intrigued with in C#? For example, - add first class RTTI to C++ - Add first class Garbage Collection (again, this would be optional, and could be turned off) - Develop a truly kick ass C++ framework to use that is unencumbered by the GPL (hint, hint, VCF :)) - Add first class property and event support, a la C# property and delegate syntax, or something similar. - Come up with a standard ABI and AGRESSIVELY push it to ALL C++ vendors, volunteer help, whatever, to amke this happen, so that we can share components/classes at the binary level. There are TONS of things you could do to make C++ even more of a kick ass langauge. Why wait for the folks on the standards committee to argue, debate, blather, etc why not push the language forward by the very people who actually use the damn thing in the real world!! ( I strongly doubt Bjarne has every written a real world, production level app, I could be wrong though). With all the effort put into Mono we could have had a really kick ass GCC C++ compiler instead of the rather lame clunky thing that currently exists (and yes I have used it - this is coming from experience on both Win32 and linux using 2.95, and the various 3.x series). Instead we have to put all that effort into *starting all over again*!!!!! Sigh... OK I feel better now. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
Jim Crafton wrote: Why wait for the folks on the standards committee to argue, debate, blather, etc why not push the language forward by the very people who actually use the damn thing in the real world!! I once worked for a company where I used some non-standard ways of doing things, like a lot of scripting. One of the lead developers from another group was asked if he wanted to join my group (which was very successful, and his was failing and his project was about to be cancelled). Never mind that I didn't want him. His response was, "no. Why would I? I can't exactly put on my resume 'I used the Marc Clifton design methodology and scripting language'!". In other words, people have become efin sheep. Innovation is dead. Standards are "in". Trying to get someone to do something out of the ordinary is like trying to milk a bull. It sucks. Believe me. Which is why I am an independent consultant. So that I can remain an independent thinker. Rant on. It's catching. [edit]and my grammar is degenerating the later it gets[/edit] Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C#
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Anyways, it's way too complicated to play the "what-if" game at 10:36 PM on a Friday. Wimp, wimp, wimp, wimp, wimp!!! And you just got me going, you TEASE!! ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
Jim Crafton wrote: And you just got me going, you TEASE!! LOL! Not too often I get called THAT. Well--go for it. I'm still figuring out these dang bugs in a very complicated state system. Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C#
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Anyways, it's way too complicated to play the "what-if" game at 10:36 PM on a Friday. Wimp, wimp, wimp, wimp, wimp!!! And you just got me going, you TEASE!! ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
Between "Crafton" and "Clifton", it's hard to figure out who's saying what! Anyways, I'm meeting with the Vice President of Development at Microsoft next week. Do you have a message you would like me to convey? (I'm serious--it's an MVP invite). Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C#
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Between "Crafton" and "Clifton", it's hard to figure out who's saying what! Anyways, I'm meeting with the Vice President of Development at Microsoft next week. Do you have a message you would like me to convey? (I'm serious--it's an MVP invite). Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C#
Sure, tell them how superb the VCF is and that they should sponsor it with a small $500,000 grant! :) ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
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Jim Crafton wrote: Why wait for the folks on the standards committee to argue, debate, blather, etc why not push the language forward by the very people who actually use the damn thing in the real world!! I once worked for a company where I used some non-standard ways of doing things, like a lot of scripting. One of the lead developers from another group was asked if he wanted to join my group (which was very successful, and his was failing and his project was about to be cancelled). Never mind that I didn't want him. His response was, "no. Why would I? I can't exactly put on my resume 'I used the Marc Clifton design methodology and scripting language'!". In other words, people have become efin sheep. Innovation is dead. Standards are "in". Trying to get someone to do something out of the ordinary is like trying to milk a bull. It sucks. Believe me. Which is why I am an independent consultant. So that I can remain an independent thinker. Rant on. It's catching. [edit]and my grammar is degenerating the later it gets[/edit] Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C#
In other words, people have become efin sheep. Innovation is dead. Tell me about it. Wanna here something scary? I got really bored at work one day (something that happens alot, but that's another story), and downloaded the GCC source just for yucks. And started looked at the C++ compiler code. And then started to try hacking it. Whew, glad that phase passed. I have notes on what I would consider a really cool end user OS using standard components, but with a lot of tweaks, i.e. the 2.6 Linux kernel, a completely revamped directory tree, some really cool (IMHO) uses for extended file/dir attr's since the FS is 100% Reiser4, DirectFB...I soooo want to drop working on the VCF and pursue this, because it's so fascinating to me, and I see so little actual progress being made in linux land (which the more I see of its community comes as no rela surprise). ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned
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I just don't have much to say (more accurately, I don't feel much like saying it). I think I've become satisfied with the notion that I'm right and the rest of the world got it all wrong. I have recently developed an overwhelming urge to buy a one-room cabin in the mountains, a high-powered rifle, and sit on the porch all day drinking moonshine and shoot any stupid fucker that so much as shows his pointy little head. The short answer - I'm doing okay. :) Are you still here in the US, or are you back home where the water buffalo roam? You never did come down here and get me drunk and take advantage of me like you promised. :) ------- sig starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 "You won't like me when I'm angry..." - Dr. Bruce Banner Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- sig ends
Damn John, I hear you there mate ! I am about a two cent stamp short of going postal myself. Have a better one. The Ten Commandments For C Programmers
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Damn John, I hear you there mate ! I am about a two cent stamp short of going postal myself. Have a better one. The Ten Commandments For C Programmers
I think that just became by new sig. ;) The Ten Commandments For C Programmers
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Between "Crafton" and "Clifton", it's hard to figure out who's saying what! Anyways, I'm meeting with the Vice President of Development at Microsoft next week. Do you have a message you would like me to convey? (I'm serious--it's an MVP invite). Marc Microsoft MVP, Visual C#
Tell him that there are still real programmers out here trying to build real apps for windows that need to handle large amounts of data and need to perform more or less in real time. And that there is no way in hell that a scripted / hosted XAML / .NET kludge is ever going to meet that need. Tell him that the .NET / Forms VS Longhorn / Avalon roadmap is f**ked in the head. Tell him that if the kiddies in the Avalon team can't design and build a Tree Control yet alone one with a DATAMODEL rather than scriped data binding. Then he should just fire the whole lot of them and get people that actually have a clue... Tell him that gc just moves the problem to whether you hold a weak or strong reference. It doesn't "solve" any memory management problems. In short tell him to pull his finger out and come up with a development plan for a c++ source code compilable framework to replace MFC.
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Joel Holdsworth wrote: So that's one user no longer PHPing. Any particular reason besides the fact Microsoft didn't make it? Jeremy Falcon
Well mostly because it is a horrible language. I'm so fed up with dollar signs, and the set of functions although extensive are really badly layed out e.g. horrible function names. The end result code is never pretty or readable. Joel Holdsworth
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Joel Holdsworth wrote: So that's one user no longer PHPing. Any particular reason besides the fact Microsoft didn't make it? Jeremy Falcon
ASP.NET has far more functionality out of the box than PHP, a factor you used to compare PHP to ASP. I find it a better tool for most of the websites I do than PHP. If I needed a very simple website then I would use ASP as I would not need all the PHP or ASP.NET functionality and it runs on the same hosting as our ASP.NET sites. But use the tool that fits the requirements. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Christopher Duncan quoted: "...that would require my explaining Einstein's Fear of Relatives" Crikey! ain't life grand? Einstein says...
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Well mostly because it is a horrible language. I'm so fed up with dollar signs, and the set of functions although extensive are really badly layed out e.g. horrible function names. The end result code is never pretty or readable. Joel Holdsworth
Alot of the function names are taken from C. Unless you dislike C, how's that so horrible? Jeremy Falcon
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ASP.NET has far more functionality out of the box than PHP, a factor you used to compare PHP to ASP. I find it a better tool for most of the websites I do than PHP. If I needed a very simple website then I would use ASP as I would not need all the PHP or ASP.NET functionality and it runs on the same hosting as our ASP.NET sites. But use the tool that fits the requirements. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Christopher Duncan quoted: "...that would require my explaining Einstein's Fear of Relatives" Crikey! ain't life grand? Einstein says...
Paul Watson wrote: ASP.NET has far more functionality out of the box than PHP Are you sure about this? And if so, care to give some examples? Really, I'm being objective and would like to know. One example for PHP is, AFAIK out of the box you can't even write a PDF file with ASP.NET, but with PHP you have been able since 4.0. I haven't started using ASP.NET, and from what I hear it does leaps and bounds over ASP. It's just unnerving when I hear some people (I'm not talking about you) dis PHP or anything - like Macs - when they know little about it. Jeremy Falcon
