Modern Pressure
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I couldn't agree with you more Brian. That was more the point of my post - that it's a shame young people feel so pressured that they can miss out on enjoying such a wonderful time in life.
Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
Meg's World - Blog PhotographyMegan Forbes wrote: they can miss out on enjoying such a wonderful time in life But don't forget, part of that "wonderful time" can be had at university... ... it isn't all studying!
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He should go to University. If he feels he is falling behind now, in a few years it will feel more so because companies look for things like degrees especially for a 20 something. Last year when I was looking for a job a number of companies turned me away because I didn't have an "honours" degree (I quit with an ordinary degree in order to start my own company), which I think given my experience was unfair - but it was an employers market then and in that senario many employers look for the easiest thing to filter on when they receive a deluge of CVs. So no degree == bucket in those cases.
"You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want." --Zig Ziglar The Second EuroCPian Event will be in Brussels on the 4th of September
Depends... Maybe in large companies they want people with degrees, but the smaller places they usually hire those with experiense instead ;) When I'm hiring people I always looks at what they have done before and not their degrees. Self-taught people shows a lot about themself by being able to learn what they have by them self, IMHO. - Anders Money talks, but all mine ever says is "Goodbye!" ShotKeeper, my Photo Album / Organizer Application[^]
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Depends... Maybe in large companies they want people with degrees, but the smaller places they usually hire those with experiense instead ;) When I'm hiring people I always looks at what they have done before and not their degrees. Self-taught people shows a lot about themself by being able to learn what they have by them self, IMHO. - Anders Money talks, but all mine ever says is "Goodbye!" ShotKeeper, my Photo Album / Organizer Application[^]
Anders Molin wrote: Maybe in large companies they want people with degrees, but the smaller places they usually hire those with experiense instead I'm in a small company now. So your theory certainly works in my case.
"You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want." --Zig Ziglar The Second EuroCPian Event will be in Brussels on the 4th of September
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I have a friend who is 19. He turns 20 at the end of the year. He has a 1 year computer science diploma, A+, N+ and another pc technician diploma. He also has almost 18 months experience as a developer. He has saved his cash from the 18 months work to send himself to university, resisting the temptation to buy a car and other normal teenage boy wishlist items. But now, at 19, he feels that he is falling behind, and that 3 years of university will kill his career chances. The fix is easy - do his degree part time. As he wishes to travel, and has a job organised in London, this will not be too difficult providing he puts in the hours (which he's more than prepared to do). As I've come through my 20's I've often felt pressured in a similar way - however, looking back now I can see that although I was not at the forefront of geniuses snapped up by governments for crucial projects, I have done a lot more than many others my age. Chatting to this friend on MSN over the last hour or so has actually made me quite sad. I'm all for taking responsibility for oneself (I also paid for all my own studies). But when a 19 year old with his CV feels he's falling behind, I think that really says quite a lot about pressures in the modern world.
Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
Meg's World - Blog PhotographyFWIW, I stopped attending college in my third year. At that point, I had already worked for both my colleges as a programmer and administrator, had off-college-summer experience as a programmer/developer, and even had some programming experience from high-school internships. Not having the degree has never cost me a job (at least, not to my knowledge :)). I would be on the watch out for people that are more concerned with a sheet of paper (and the likely debt to go along with it) than someone's demonstrable experience and potential. IMHO (and IME), a degree does not guarantee someone's technical competence no more than having a driver's license guarantees that someone will be a competent driver; it just indicates that they know how to operate a car. Likewise, the degree only gives you an idea that someone knows how to do something. The demonstrable experience is what proves it. I have held and (and do hold) positions above many of those with Master's Degrees. Having the real-world experience is what gives one the benefit of understanding that how things should be (i.e. as written and read in books) is often different from how things are. Respecting that difference what what is going to help you succeed. For example, would you hire someone for a non-entry-level position who told you: "Well, I have read the ARM cover-to-cover, browsed through several develoepr-related web sites, read a few magazines, etc. and I know how exceptions work, but I have never really tried them out." Would anyone in their right mind think any less of
Don BoxorScott Meyersif they just discovered that they lacked a classical education? My point: My colleges may have had some modern machines, but the books used (and the instructor's teachings and so-called ) tended to be a quite few years old. Once I realized that, I realized that I was wasting my time and left. 3+ year old technology and experience is not worth much in today's Software Development world. If I was your friend, who is smarter than I to realize this now rather than 3 years from now, I would try to get a programming-related job right now. If I could not get one, then I would go to college. Going to college beats being unemployed, and truth be told, I did learn some things while in school. (Just do not let anyone tell you that 4 years of Calculus and Diff-EQ are required to be a programmer! :)) Peace! -=- James (Sono -
As an employer (based in the UK), I look for a degree for a number of reasons, but primarily, it's an indication of 1) intelligence 2) ability to work, on your own, and get things done 3) maturity (the whole leaving home, fending for yourself bit) He's only 19, for goodness sake. I started university when I was 18, and did a four year full time course. Leaving university with a decent degree at 22 will not harm his career chances one bit. Getting to 22 with three years work experience, but no degree would be much worse. Again, as an employer, experience is not that important, since the technology moves so fast. What's much more important is evidence of intelligence, committment and responsibility. (I can teach someone how to program in .NET, I can't teach someone to be intelligent).
>1) intelligence Guess it depends on your line of work but pure intelligence does not always equate to being able to do the job. I know you know this though. :) >2) ability to work, on your own, and get things done From what I have seen of my sister doing her degree (in honours now) she gets far more support from peers and teachers than I get in my daily job or while I was unemployed. Not just human support but extensive resources too. >3) maturity (the whole leaving home, fending for yourself bit) Maybe things are different here in SA but most students working towards a degree are still living at home with mom and dad. They don't have to fend for themselves and the first year retry rate is horrendous as kids party the first year, fail and then only wake up. My first few years out of school I did everything to get away from having to rely on my poor folks, I wanted to fend for myself. (I did not get a degree. The only time I regret this is when trying to get into other countries with visa requirements.) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Chris Maunder wrote: "I'd rather cover myself in honey and lie on an ant's nest than commit myself to it publicly." Jon Sagara replied: "I think we've all been in that situation before." Crikey! ain't life grand?
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I have a friend who is 19. He turns 20 at the end of the year. He has a 1 year computer science diploma, A+, N+ and another pc technician diploma. He also has almost 18 months experience as a developer. He has saved his cash from the 18 months work to send himself to university, resisting the temptation to buy a car and other normal teenage boy wishlist items. But now, at 19, he feels that he is falling behind, and that 3 years of university will kill his career chances. The fix is easy - do his degree part time. As he wishes to travel, and has a job organised in London, this will not be too difficult providing he puts in the hours (which he's more than prepared to do). As I've come through my 20's I've often felt pressured in a similar way - however, looking back now I can see that although I was not at the forefront of geniuses snapped up by governments for crucial projects, I have done a lot more than many others my age. Chatting to this friend on MSN over the last hour or so has actually made me quite sad. I'm all for taking responsibility for oneself (I also paid for all my own studies). But when a 19 year old with his CV feels he's falling behind, I think that really says quite a lot about pressures in the modern world.
Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
Meg's World - Blog PhotographyI can't speak for others but now at 24 I look back and would advise my 19 year old self to head out into the world and travel cheap and light. I came out of school and pressured myself into getting a job so that I would not be a burden on my folks. I also thought travelling overseas was impossible for me, but that was quite wrong. That was a lack of confidence. Right now I am mature when it comes to the job field but feel I would have learnt more personal and confidence skills from travelling. It does get harder and harder to travel as you get older, a career can wait. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Chris Maunder wrote: "I'd rather cover myself in honey and lie on an ant's nest than commit myself to it publicly." Jon Sagara replied: "I think we've all been in that situation before." Crikey! ain't life grand?
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>1) intelligence Guess it depends on your line of work but pure intelligence does not always equate to being able to do the job. I know you know this though. :) >2) ability to work, on your own, and get things done From what I have seen of my sister doing her degree (in honours now) she gets far more support from peers and teachers than I get in my daily job or while I was unemployed. Not just human support but extensive resources too. >3) maturity (the whole leaving home, fending for yourself bit) Maybe things are different here in SA but most students working towards a degree are still living at home with mom and dad. They don't have to fend for themselves and the first year retry rate is horrendous as kids party the first year, fail and then only wake up. My first few years out of school I did everything to get away from having to rely on my poor folks, I wanted to fend for myself. (I did not get a degree. The only time I regret this is when trying to get into other countries with visa requirements.) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Chris Maunder wrote: "I'd rather cover myself in honey and lie on an ant's nest than commit myself to it publicly." Jon Sagara replied: "I think we've all been in that situation before." Crikey! ain't life grand?
Paul Watson wrote: pure intelligence does not always equate to being able to do the job Absolutely. Just because you're intelligent doesn't make you a good developer. But in my experience at least, you need intelligence to be a good developer (but it's just one of the things you need - there are a lot of others as well). Paul Watson wrote: she gets far more support from peers and teachers than I get in my daily job Sounds like either your sister's really fortunate, or you're really unlucky! Paul Watson wrote: most students working towards a degree are still living at home In England, it's the opposite. Most students leave home to go to university. We've had some bad experiences with employees who haven't had that "away from home - now you're on your own" shock, and they really stuggle to get to grips with the "grown up" world of work.
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I can't speak for others but now at 24 I look back and would advise my 19 year old self to head out into the world and travel cheap and light. I came out of school and pressured myself into getting a job so that I would not be a burden on my folks. I also thought travelling overseas was impossible for me, but that was quite wrong. That was a lack of confidence. Right now I am mature when it comes to the job field but feel I would have learnt more personal and confidence skills from travelling. It does get harder and harder to travel as you get older, a career can wait. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Chris Maunder wrote: "I'd rather cover myself in honey and lie on an ant's nest than commit myself to it publicly." Jon Sagara replied: "I think we've all been in that situation before." Crikey! ain't life grand?
Paul Watson wrote: It does get harder and harder to travel as you get older, a career can wait. Speak for yourself. I think it's *easier* to travel as you get older, you tend to have more money and vacation time stored up. Now, if by "older" you mean "older, married, and with children", then yes, it is more difficult. And if by "older" you mean "gereatric", then I again can see your point. "Fish and guests stink in three days." - Benjamin Franlkin
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I have a friend who is 19. He turns 20 at the end of the year. He has a 1 year computer science diploma, A+, N+ and another pc technician diploma. He also has almost 18 months experience as a developer. He has saved his cash from the 18 months work to send himself to university, resisting the temptation to buy a car and other normal teenage boy wishlist items. But now, at 19, he feels that he is falling behind, and that 3 years of university will kill his career chances. The fix is easy - do his degree part time. As he wishes to travel, and has a job organised in London, this will not be too difficult providing he puts in the hours (which he's more than prepared to do). As I've come through my 20's I've often felt pressured in a similar way - however, looking back now I can see that although I was not at the forefront of geniuses snapped up by governments for crucial projects, I have done a lot more than many others my age. Chatting to this friend on MSN over the last hour or so has actually made me quite sad. I'm all for taking responsibility for oneself (I also paid for all my own studies). But when a 19 year old with his CV feels he's falling behind, I think that really says quite a lot about pressures in the modern world.
Look at the world about you and trust to your own convictions. - Ansel Adams
Meg's World - Blog PhotographyThe desire to grow up too fast isn't a modern thing. Granted, I'm a jaded 42 year old, but when I look back at the pressures I perceived as a 20 year old, it's clear I was clueless. I say, go to University for a bit, then take some time off and wander around Europe, the Americas. Africa and/or Asia, then go back to University. If the economy stays the same or gets better, there will be jobs when he graduates. If the economy tanks, he won't have a job anyway, but he'll have three years of enjoyment he otherwise wouldn't have had. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Paul Watson wrote: It does get harder and harder to travel as you get older, a career can wait. Speak for yourself. I think it's *easier* to travel as you get older, you tend to have more money and vacation time stored up. Now, if by "older" you mean "older, married, and with children", then yes, it is more difficult. And if by "older" you mean "gereatric", then I again can see your point. "Fish and guests stink in three days." - Benjamin Franlkin
>and vacation time stored up Not sure what it is like in other countries but you cannot legally store up vacation time here. It is law to take your 15 days of holiday a year (health reasons). Also from the companies perspective people have been known to go for years without a holiday and then suddenly hit their company with months of paid leave. 15 days a year. Can't do much with that. When you are 19 and don't have a job you have months of time. When you are older and have a career going you feel loath to take off too much time for fear of falling behind. Not all companies are nice enough to give sabaticals either. You also get more dependencies as you grow older. Car debt, house debt, insurance, medical aid etc. etc. all of which demand monthly payments. You can't pay those if you don't have a job. When you are young you don't have to worry beyond tonight's meal or tomorrow's ferry ticket. True, you supposedly have more money as you grow older and climb the ladder but a lot of that extra money is sapped up by those dependencies. Also when you are young you can deal with sleeping anywhere and eating 2 minute noodles for a month while having a weekly bath in a public bathroom. When you are older you may have a steady girlfriend or wife who is not too keen to do that. Sure, when you are older you tend to have "nicer" holidays. Hotels, rented cars, better restaurants etc. but I would give all of that for more time backpacking through rougher conditions. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Chris Maunder wrote: "I'd rather cover myself in honey and lie on an ant's nest than commit myself to it publicly." Jon Sagara replied: "I think we've all been in that situation before." Crikey! ain't life grand?
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>and vacation time stored up Not sure what it is like in other countries but you cannot legally store up vacation time here. It is law to take your 15 days of holiday a year (health reasons). Also from the companies perspective people have been known to go for years without a holiday and then suddenly hit their company with months of paid leave. 15 days a year. Can't do much with that. When you are 19 and don't have a job you have months of time. When you are older and have a career going you feel loath to take off too much time for fear of falling behind. Not all companies are nice enough to give sabaticals either. You also get more dependencies as you grow older. Car debt, house debt, insurance, medical aid etc. etc. all of which demand monthly payments. You can't pay those if you don't have a job. When you are young you don't have to worry beyond tonight's meal or tomorrow's ferry ticket. True, you supposedly have more money as you grow older and climb the ladder but a lot of that extra money is sapped up by those dependencies. Also when you are young you can deal with sleeping anywhere and eating 2 minute noodles for a month while having a weekly bath in a public bathroom. When you are older you may have a steady girlfriend or wife who is not too keen to do that. Sure, when you are older you tend to have "nicer" holidays. Hotels, rented cars, better restaurants etc. but I would give all of that for more time backpacking through rougher conditions. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Chris Maunder wrote: "I'd rather cover myself in honey and lie on an ant's nest than commit myself to it publicly." Jon Sagara replied: "I think we've all been in that situation before." Crikey! ain't life grand?
Paul Watson wrote: 15 days a year. Can't do much with that. Get a VISA and work in the EU. By law companies are forced to make you take a minimum of 20 paid days a year (not including local holidays - I get my 20 vacation days + 8 holidays. I can choose whether to take a holiday or convert it to a vacation day for any except Christmas day and New Years day). Some companies are more generous than others. And, before any Americans jump in with comments about economic viability for companies take a look at typical EU Vs. US salaries for the same job - You'll see that all that these extra social payments (lots of paid vacation days, Statutory sick pay, Maternity pay, etc) are all factored in.
"You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want." --Zig Ziglar The Second EuroCPian Event will be in Brussels on the 4th of September
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Paul Watson wrote: 15 days a year. Can't do much with that. Get a VISA and work in the EU. By law companies are forced to make you take a minimum of 20 paid days a year (not including local holidays - I get my 20 vacation days + 8 holidays. I can choose whether to take a holiday or convert it to a vacation day for any except Christmas day and New Years day). Some companies are more generous than others. And, before any Americans jump in with comments about economic viability for companies take a look at typical EU Vs. US salaries for the same job - You'll see that all that these extra social payments (lots of paid vacation days, Statutory sick pay, Maternity pay, etc) are all factored in.
"You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want." --Zig Ziglar The Second EuroCPian Event will be in Brussels on the 4th of September
Generally SA gives 15 days but we have something like 20 public holidays so the clever ones match up their leave to these. Still, the kind of youth-travel I was talking about is the 6-months-in-Thailand kind of travelling, not a two week stress break to Disney world :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass South Africa Chris Maunder wrote: "I'd rather cover myself in honey and lie on an ant's nest than commit myself to it publicly." Jon Sagara replied: "I think we've all been in that situation before." Crikey! ain't life grand?