Will the US please stop Isreal!!!
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One of the most chilling things I ever saw was a TV new article where an on-the-spot reporter in Israel was stopping people on the street and asking for their opinions about their country's retalliation againt Palestinian terrorist acts. One reply came from a teenage Israeli girl who said that whenever an Israeli was killed by a Palestinian then Israel should go and kill 10 Palestinians in return because (in her words) 'One Israeli is worth at least 10 Palestinians'. I think that parallels between Israel and Nazi Germany are more than obvious. Dr Herbie @ Autoscribe Remember, half the people out there have below average IQs.
Dr Herbie wrote: I think that parallels between Israel and Nazi Germany are more than obvious IMO, this comparison is plain stupid, it's like saying any Palestinian is a terrorist: are Israeli trying to genocide the Palestinian people? Were there some kind of KristallNacht[^] in Israel? I don't think so. That's true there are some extremists on the Israeli side, asking for the deportation (:omg:!) of Palestinians, but they aren't a majority. Moreover, there are Israeli organizations trying to help the Palestinians (Bat Salom, Women's Coalition for Peace..). Is there the same thing on the other side? Cataloging people because of their ethnic origin is deeply racist, and is a negation of the choice any individual can make.
Mais donnez-moi aussi Le courage et la force et la foi Car vous êtes le seul à donner Ce que l'on ne peut obtenir que de soi.
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Stan Shannon wrote: The notion that they could arrive at a peaceful settlement with people who are committed entirely to their destruction is rediculous. They must either fight or flee, they have no other choice. [sarcasm] I can see that you are totally on Israel's side because they had been the victims in the past. You probably don't mind if some Palestinians camp in your backyard because they lost their homeland even if you had nothing to do with their loss their homeland. As for the Palestinians, yes, they are committed to the destruction of Israel. They have no choice, either they fight or live a life with no dignity. Too bad Israel can't kill them all, like the Americans killed the Indians. [/sarcasm]
Small Dragon wrote: Too bad Israel can't kill them all, like the Americans killed the Indians. Just Americans killed the indians eh? What about the Incas, Aztecs, and other indigenous people of Central and South America? Did the Americans kill them too? Maybe you need to take a refresher course in history. BTW, there are some Indians left. What really irks me is today's total disregard for historical perspective. The Pal/Israeli conflict is a modern fight so modern sensibilities can be applied, but 150 or even 100 years ago, the attitudes of most people were totally different when it came to war. Only after the atrocities of WWII and better methods of information sharing have we become appalled at the civilian cost of war. Throughout history we see conquering nations completely destroy whole cities. Some would even destroy a city and spread salt over the land so no one could farm it and ever live there again. The past is the past. Learn from it, but don't hold our atrocities against us. No one is innocent.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
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Dr Herbie wrote: I think that parallels between Israel and Nazi Germany are more than obvious IMO, this comparison is plain stupid, it's like saying any Palestinian is a terrorist: are Israeli trying to genocide the Palestinian people? Were there some kind of KristallNacht[^] in Israel? I don't think so. That's true there are some extremists on the Israeli side, asking for the deportation (:omg:!) of Palestinians, but they aren't a majority. Moreover, there are Israeli organizations trying to help the Palestinians (Bat Salom, Women's Coalition for Peace..). Is there the same thing on the other side? Cataloging people because of their ethnic origin is deeply racist, and is a negation of the choice any individual can make.
Mais donnez-moi aussi Le courage et la force et la foi Car vous êtes le seul à donner Ce que l'on ne peut obtenir que de soi.
KaЯl wrote: IMO, this comparison is plain stupid, it's like saying any Palestinian is a terrorist: are Israeli trying to genocide the Palestinian people? Maybe I should have been more plain: The parallels between (some) Israeli attitudes towards the Palestinians and the (general) attitudes of Nazi Germany to the Jews are obvious -- both see an entire race as worth less than they are. KristallNacht was a major pogrom. Wikipedia[^] defines pogrom as: The Russian word pogrom ("погром") denotes a massive violent attack on people with simultaneous destroying of their environment (homes, businesses, religious centers). Historically the term has been used to denote massive acts of violence, either spontaneous or premeditated, against Jews and other ethnic minorities living in Europe. IMHO pogrom and genocide are NOT the same, genocide wants to rid the world of a race, while pogroms are more localised and shorter lived. There will not be an equivalent to the Holocaust, but there have been occasions where you could accuse the Israelis of organising pogroms against the Palesinians --unless you think the Israelis are always justified in bulldozing homes or firing helecopter gunships at people outside of Mosques. KaЯl wrote: That's true there are some extremists on the Israeli side, asking for the deportation (!) of Palestinians, but they aren't a majority. In pretty much all of these situations the protagonists are a minority -- it's the same in Ireland. Most of Belfast and the majority of Nothern Ireland have always been quite peaceful, there are just a few areas that you would want to avoid. Dr Herbie @ Autoscribe Remember, half the people out there have below average IQs.
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Small Dragon wrote: Too bad Israel can't kill them all, like the Americans killed the Indians. Just Americans killed the indians eh? What about the Incas, Aztecs, and other indigenous people of Central and South America? Did the Americans kill them too? Maybe you need to take a refresher course in history. BTW, there are some Indians left. What really irks me is today's total disregard for historical perspective. The Pal/Israeli conflict is a modern fight so modern sensibilities can be applied, but 150 or even 100 years ago, the attitudes of most people were totally different when it came to war. Only after the atrocities of WWII and better methods of information sharing have we become appalled at the civilian cost of war. Throughout history we see conquering nations completely destroy whole cities. Some would even destroy a city and spread salt over the land so no one could farm it and ever live there again. The past is the past. Learn from it, but don't hold our atrocities against us. No one is innocent.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blogJason Henderson wrote: Just Americans killed the indians eh? What about the Incas, Aztecs, and other indigenous people of Central and South America? Did the Americans kill them too? Maybe you need to take a refresher course in history. Yes, others killed Indians, and Palestinians, too. That does not change the fact that most of the Indians once lived in America were killed by Americans. Why do you jump when I stated the fact? Am I insulting your ancesters? Speaking of history course, the pathetic Thanksgiving fairy tale is still being taught to kids in public schools in USA. Jason Henderson wrote: No one is innocent. Maybe that's how the terrorists see it. If we pay tax or drive a car in the USA, we are financing the Israeli occupation indirectly. As GWB said, "we do not distinguish terrorists from those who harbor them". With that logic, the terrorists have the right to kill everyone because no one is innocent, as you said.
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Jason Henderson wrote: Just Americans killed the indians eh? What about the Incas, Aztecs, and other indigenous people of Central and South America? Did the Americans kill them too? Maybe you need to take a refresher course in history. Yes, others killed Indians, and Palestinians, too. That does not change the fact that most of the Indians once lived in America were killed by Americans. Why do you jump when I stated the fact? Am I insulting your ancesters? Speaking of history course, the pathetic Thanksgiving fairy tale is still being taught to kids in public schools in USA. Jason Henderson wrote: No one is innocent. Maybe that's how the terrorists see it. If we pay tax or drive a car in the USA, we are financing the Israeli occupation indirectly. As GWB said, "we do not distinguish terrorists from those who harbor them". With that logic, the terrorists have the right to kill everyone because no one is innocent, as you said.
Small Dragon wrote: Yes, others killed Indians, and Palestinians, too. That does not change the fact that most of the Indians once lived in America were killed by Americans. Why do you jump when I stated the fact? Am I insulting your ancesters? Because its a biased, accusatory statement. Millions of natives were killed by disease, by Spainards, English, French, etc. You must remember that Americans were not Americans until 1776. We aren't innocent, but to single us out is absurd. Small Dragon wrote: Maybe that's how the terrorists see it. If we pay tax or drive a car in the USA, we are financing the Israeli occupation indirectly. As GWB said, "we do not distinguish terrorists from those who harbor them". With that logic, the terrorists have the right to kill everyone because no one is innocent, as you said. This is total BS.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
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Anonymous wrote: However,none of that changes the reality of the situation. The Palestinians are being used as pawns by the rest of the Muslim world who could otherwise care less about their plight. The reality is, US is giving Israel money, weapon, and political support. With that kind of support, of course there is no other (better) choice for Israel. Anonymous wrote: Israel has no choice but to fight if it wishes to survive. The Palestinians, in fact, have many choices but they do not choose wisely. In other words, the Palestinians are too stupid, is that what you are saying?
Small Dragon wrote: The reality is, US is giving Israel money, weapon, and political support. With that kind of support, of course there is no other (better) choice for Israel. The U.S. is not the only country that supports the Israeli military. Take China for instance...
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
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KaЯl wrote: IMO, this comparison is plain stupid, it's like saying any Palestinian is a terrorist: are Israeli trying to genocide the Palestinian people? Maybe I should have been more plain: The parallels between (some) Israeli attitudes towards the Palestinians and the (general) attitudes of Nazi Germany to the Jews are obvious -- both see an entire race as worth less than they are. KristallNacht was a major pogrom. Wikipedia[^] defines pogrom as: The Russian word pogrom ("погром") denotes a massive violent attack on people with simultaneous destroying of their environment (homes, businesses, religious centers). Historically the term has been used to denote massive acts of violence, either spontaneous or premeditated, against Jews and other ethnic minorities living in Europe. IMHO pogrom and genocide are NOT the same, genocide wants to rid the world of a race, while pogroms are more localised and shorter lived. There will not be an equivalent to the Holocaust, but there have been occasions where you could accuse the Israelis of organising pogroms against the Palesinians --unless you think the Israelis are always justified in bulldozing homes or firing helecopter gunships at people outside of Mosques. KaЯl wrote: That's true there are some extremists on the Israeli side, asking for the deportation (!) of Palestinians, but they aren't a majority. In pretty much all of these situations the protagonists are a minority -- it's the same in Ireland. Most of Belfast and the majority of Nothern Ireland have always been quite peaceful, there are just a few areas that you would want to avoid. Dr Herbie @ Autoscribe Remember, half the people out there have below average IQs.
One of the major differences between the Nazis and the tsarist Russia is the Final Solution against Jews and Gypsies. Thanks God, Israel hasn't reached this level yet. Maybe we could discuss about a comparison between Israel and South Africa at the time of the Apartheid, but using the Nazi comparison is IMHO way too much extreme, and defamatory. Dr Herbie wrote: there have been occasions where you could accuse the Israelis of organising pogroms against the Palesinians If you would have said "there have been occasions where you could accuse some Israelis of organising pogroms against the Palesinians", I would then agree :) Dr Herbie wrote: unless you think the Israelis are always justified in bulldozing homes or firing helecopter gunships at people outside of Mosques. No, I don't.
Mais donnez-moi aussi Le courage et la force et la foi Car vous êtes le seul à donner Ce que l'on ne peut obtenir que de soi.
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Jason Henderson wrote: Just Americans killed the indians eh? What about the Incas, Aztecs, and other indigenous people of Central and South America? Did the Americans kill them too? Maybe you need to take a refresher course in history. Yes, others killed Indians, and Palestinians, too. That does not change the fact that most of the Indians once lived in America were killed by Americans. Why do you jump when I stated the fact? Am I insulting your ancesters? Speaking of history course, the pathetic Thanksgiving fairy tale is still being taught to kids in public schools in USA. Jason Henderson wrote: No one is innocent. Maybe that's how the terrorists see it. If we pay tax or drive a car in the USA, we are financing the Israeli occupation indirectly. As GWB said, "we do not distinguish terrorists from those who harbor them". With that logic, the terrorists have the right to kill everyone because no one is innocent, as you said.
Small Dragon wrote: That does not change the fact that most of the Indians once lived in America were killed by Americans. I'm sure you know that the vast majority of [American] Indians were killed by disease but were speaking in the heat of the moment. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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KaЯl wrote: IMO, this comparison is plain stupid, it's like saying any Palestinian is a terrorist: are Israeli trying to genocide the Palestinian people? Maybe I should have been more plain: The parallels between (some) Israeli attitudes towards the Palestinians and the (general) attitudes of Nazi Germany to the Jews are obvious -- both see an entire race as worth less than they are. KristallNacht was a major pogrom. Wikipedia[^] defines pogrom as: The Russian word pogrom ("погром") denotes a massive violent attack on people with simultaneous destroying of their environment (homes, businesses, religious centers). Historically the term has been used to denote massive acts of violence, either spontaneous or premeditated, against Jews and other ethnic minorities living in Europe. IMHO pogrom and genocide are NOT the same, genocide wants to rid the world of a race, while pogroms are more localised and shorter lived. There will not be an equivalent to the Holocaust, but there have been occasions where you could accuse the Israelis of organising pogroms against the Palesinians --unless you think the Israelis are always justified in bulldozing homes or firing helecopter gunships at people outside of Mosques. KaЯl wrote: That's true there are some extremists on the Israeli side, asking for the deportation (!) of Palestinians, but they aren't a majority. In pretty much all of these situations the protagonists are a minority -- it's the same in Ireland. Most of Belfast and the majority of Nothern Ireland have always been quite peaceful, there are just a few areas that you would want to avoid. Dr Herbie @ Autoscribe Remember, half the people out there have below average IQs.
Dr Herbie wrote: There will not be an equivalent to the Holocaust, but there have been occasions where you could accuse the Israelis of organising pogroms against the Palesinians --unless you think the Israelis are always justified in bulldozing homes or firing helecopter gunships at people outside of Mosques. Yes, I do. You keep forgetting that Israel've never attacked first, it always responds.
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One of the most chilling things I ever saw was a TV new article where an on-the-spot reporter in Israel was stopping people on the street and asking for their opinions about their country's retalliation againt Palestinian terrorist acts. One reply came from a teenage Israeli girl who said that whenever an Israeli was killed by a Palestinian then Israel should go and kill 10 Palestinians in return because (in her words) 'One Israeli is worth at least 10 Palestinians'. I think that parallels between Israel and Nazi Germany are more than obvious. Dr Herbie @ Autoscribe Remember, half the people out there have below average IQs.
Dr Herbie wrote: One reply came from a teenage Israeli girl who said that whenever an Israeli was killed by a Palestinian then Israel should go and kill 10 Palestinians in return because (in her words) 'One Israeli is worth at least 10 Palestinians'. I'd bet a thousand dollars that there are Arabs who would say exactly the opposite - one Arab is worth at least 10 Jews. In fact, I recall reading about Saddam Hussein's upbringing; his uncle used to tell him that there are three things that shouldn't exist in the world: dogs, fleas, and Jews. The Iranians say that Israel is a cancer that need to be cut out. Am I defending their methods? No, I'm condemning your one-sided view of the situation.
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Small Dragon wrote: Yes, others killed Indians, and Palestinians, too. That does not change the fact that most of the Indians once lived in America were killed by Americans. Why do you jump when I stated the fact? Am I insulting your ancesters? Because its a biased, accusatory statement. Millions of natives were killed by disease, by Spainards, English, French, etc. You must remember that Americans were not Americans until 1776. We aren't innocent, but to single us out is absurd. Small Dragon wrote: Maybe that's how the terrorists see it. If we pay tax or drive a car in the USA, we are financing the Israeli occupation indirectly. As GWB said, "we do not distinguish terrorists from those who harbor them". With that logic, the terrorists have the right to kill everyone because no one is innocent, as you said. This is total BS.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blogJason Henderson wrote: Because its a biased, accusatory statement. Oh, forgive me ignorance. It is just so easy to be misled by communist propaganda like this[^]. In Colorado Territory, the Cheyenne and Arapahoe Indians attempted to live peacefully with the American settlers, voluntarily relocating to reservations earlier. However, the land that the reservations included was unsuitable and many of the Indians began leaving the reservations. These Indians soon found themselves involved in a series of minor skirmishes with various American settlers, especially miners, ranchers, and wagon trains. As a consequence, in 1864 Governor John Evans ordered Colonel John M Chivington, commanding US Army forces in Colorado, to begin a campaign of extermination against all "wild" Indians in the territory. In May, Chivington's forces began attacking Indian hunting parties and peaceful encampments in the war of extermination. In August, Governor Evans expands the extermination campaign by authorizing the killing of Indians by all Americans in Colorado, subsequently resulting in bands of "concerned citizens" murdering Indians on sight throughout Colorado.
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Small Dragon wrote: The reality is, US is giving Israel money, weapon, and political support. With that kind of support, of course there is no other (better) choice for Israel. The U.S. is not the only country that supports the Israeli military. Take China for instance...
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
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Small Dragon wrote: The reality is, US is giving Israel money, weapon, and political support. With that kind of support, of course there is no other (better) choice for Israel. The U.S. is not the only country that supports the Israeli military. Take China for instance...
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blogJason Henderson wrote: Take China for instance... It's the other way around. Israel sells weapons to China (when US approves).
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Jason Henderson wrote: Because its a biased, accusatory statement. Oh, forgive me ignorance. It is just so easy to be misled by communist propaganda like this[^]. In Colorado Territory, the Cheyenne and Arapahoe Indians attempted to live peacefully with the American settlers, voluntarily relocating to reservations earlier. However, the land that the reservations included was unsuitable and many of the Indians began leaving the reservations. These Indians soon found themselves involved in a series of minor skirmishes with various American settlers, especially miners, ranchers, and wagon trains. As a consequence, in 1864 Governor John Evans ordered Colonel John M Chivington, commanding US Army forces in Colorado, to begin a campaign of extermination against all "wild" Indians in the territory. In May, Chivington's forces began attacking Indian hunting parties and peaceful encampments in the war of extermination. In August, Governor Evans expands the extermination campaign by authorizing the killing of Indians by all Americans in Colorado, subsequently resulting in bands of "concerned citizens" murdering Indians on sight throughout Colorado.
Did I say we were innocent? No. But the U.S. is not the only country that ever conquered people.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
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Dr Herbie wrote: One reply came from a teenage Israeli girl who said that whenever an Israeli was killed by a Palestinian then Israel should go and kill 10 Palestinians in return because (in her words) 'One Israeli is worth at least 10 Palestinians'. I'd bet a thousand dollars that there are Arabs who would say exactly the opposite - one Arab is worth at least 10 Jews. In fact, I recall reading about Saddam Hussein's upbringing; his uncle used to tell him that there are three things that shouldn't exist in the world: dogs, fleas, and Jews. The Iranians say that Israel is a cancer that need to be cut out. Am I defending their methods? No, I'm condemning your one-sided view of the situation.
Anonymous wrote: I'm condemning your one-sided view of the situation. Firstly, you could at least step and and give a name instead of posting anonymously, then at least I'd know who I was replying to. Secondly, my view of the situation is not one-sided, but this thread was originally about the attitude of the Israeli state being at odds with their own history. It had do direct bearing on the Paelestinian view of Israelis. I have no doubt that Palestinians say similar things about Israelis, but they don't get millions of dollars of supoprt from the USA (who threrfore appear to be condoning such attitudes) and they haven't been through what the Jews went through in WW2 and so can't be expected to know first hand what it's like to be the victim. Anonymous wrote: In fact, I recall reading about Saddam Hussein's upbringing Who said anything about Saddam? Why did you suddenly throw that into the conversation? Are you obsessed or something? I can only assume that you watch a lot of American propaganda to immediately like Arab to Saddam. Care to give a name in your response, sonny? Dr Herbie @ Autoscribe Remember, half the people out there have below average IQs.
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Dr Herbie wrote: There will not be an equivalent to the Holocaust, but there have been occasions where you could accuse the Israelis of organising pogroms against the Palesinians --unless you think the Israelis are always justified in bulldozing homes or firing helecopter gunships at people outside of Mosques. Yes, I do. You keep forgetting that Israel've never attacked first, it always responds.
Igor Vigdorchik wrote: You keep forgetting that Israel've never attacked first Oh, well that's all right then. As long as they didn't start it they can continue to bully indefinitely. I suggest you read up on the Palestinian Exodus[[^](http://Palestinian Exodus "New Window")] and, indeed the whole history of the area before you start assuming you know who started this. (Actually, the British don't come out of it smelling of roses, I'm sorry to say). My point is, it doesn't matter who started what sixty-odd years ago. This thread was originally about the comparison of Israeli actions to Nazi actions. I'm not embarrassed to suggest such parallels because: 1. I can separate the Israeli state from the Jewish people. Not all Jews are Israelis and I'm going to assume that some non-Jews live in Israel. 2. I feel no guilt over what the world let happen to the Jews sixty years ago. It was the most terrible thing :((, but you can't expect the world to feel guilty for ever. We have to just remember that it happened and stop it happening again. We don't owe Israel anything anymore. 3. Israel gets so much money from the USA that it can easily afford to withdraw from the occupied territories and let the displaced Palestinians establish their own homeland. When I say afford, I mean financially and in the military sense; in the Six Day War, Israel showed that it could wipe the floor with its neighbours. I don't care who started the conflict, I am just amazed that the Israeli state can't seem to remember what it's like to be on the receiving end. Dr Herbie @ Autoscribe Remember, half the people out there have below average IQs.
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Jason Henderson wrote: Take China for instance... It's the other way around. Israel sells weapons to China (when US approves).
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Anonymous wrote: I'm condemning your one-sided view of the situation. Firstly, you could at least step and and give a name instead of posting anonymously, then at least I'd know who I was replying to. Secondly, my view of the situation is not one-sided, but this thread was originally about the attitude of the Israeli state being at odds with their own history. It had do direct bearing on the Paelestinian view of Israelis. I have no doubt that Palestinians say similar things about Israelis, but they don't get millions of dollars of supoprt from the USA (who threrfore appear to be condoning such attitudes) and they haven't been through what the Jews went through in WW2 and so can't be expected to know first hand what it's like to be the victim. Anonymous wrote: In fact, I recall reading about Saddam Hussein's upbringing Who said anything about Saddam? Why did you suddenly throw that into the conversation? Are you obsessed or something? I can only assume that you watch a lot of American propaganda to immediately like Arab to Saddam. Care to give a name in your response, sonny? Dr Herbie @ Autoscribe Remember, half the people out there have below average IQs.
Dr Herbie wrote: my view of the situation is not one-sided, but this thread was originally about the attitude of the Israeli state being at odds with their own history. I must've missed the part about the holocaust turning Jews into saints. In fact, the most common effect of abuse is that the abused turns into the abuser. Look it up any psychology book. Dr Herbie wrote: Who said anything about Saddam? No one. I'm just giving an example of Arab attitudes. Saddam's uncle is an Arab, right!? Dr Herbie wrote: Care to give a name in your response, sonny? Just got a new computer (so the cookies are gone) and I haven't bothered to track down my password yet. Does it really matter who I am? It's simply irrelevant because you should be dealing with my arguments, not my name anyway.
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Dr Herbie wrote: There will not be an equivalent to the Holocaust, but there have been occasions where you could accuse the Israelis of organising pogroms against the Palesinians --unless you think the Israelis are always justified in bulldozing homes or firing helecopter gunships at people outside of Mosques. Yes, I do. You keep forgetting that Israel've never attacked first, it always responds.
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=5&u=/ap/20040523/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_17[^] One would think if any group of people know what it is like to be treated unfairly, the people of the state of Isreal are the ones. Sure there is the problem with suicide attacks_(which i only have a problem with because i know the intent of those Hamas bastards isn't noble, otherwise i consider it a means to an end. Not everyone beleives in protesting for their rights.)_, but Isreal's actions have been out of control. It seems they only listen to the US. What i don't understand is why they're opposed to having NATO move in. It is completely unacceptable to leave Isreal to decide how to resovle that mess, they're incapable of it. Using tanks against stone throwing teenagers is beyound comprehension. I am sitting in my flame proof buncker, so don't even bother. by the way, perl stinks.
mystro_AKA_kokie wrote: Using tanks against stone throwing teenagers is beyound comprehension. So they should let the rocks hit them in the face and kill them?!?!?!? Israel should leave the Palestinian territories immediately and dismantle all of their setllements. Then the next time Palestinian freaks attack, Israel can declare war on Palestine, slaughter all of those extremists and install an actual government capable of functioning like normal people in the 21st century instead of medieval throwbacks who deserve nothing.
//placeholder for witty verbiage