Will the US please stop Isreal!!!
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Jason Henderson wrote: Just Americans killed the indians eh? What about the Incas, Aztecs, and other indigenous people of Central and South America? Did the Americans kill them too? Maybe you need to take a refresher course in history. Yes, others killed Indians, and Palestinians, too. That does not change the fact that most of the Indians once lived in America were killed by Americans. Why do you jump when I stated the fact? Am I insulting your ancesters? Speaking of history course, the pathetic Thanksgiving fairy tale is still being taught to kids in public schools in USA. Jason Henderson wrote: No one is innocent. Maybe that's how the terrorists see it. If we pay tax or drive a car in the USA, we are financing the Israeli occupation indirectly. As GWB said, "we do not distinguish terrorists from those who harbor them". With that logic, the terrorists have the right to kill everyone because no one is innocent, as you said.
Small Dragon wrote: That does not change the fact that most of the Indians once lived in America were killed by Americans. I'm sure you know that the vast majority of [American] Indians were killed by disease but were speaking in the heat of the moment. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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KaЯl wrote: IMO, this comparison is plain stupid, it's like saying any Palestinian is a terrorist: are Israeli trying to genocide the Palestinian people? Maybe I should have been more plain: The parallels between (some) Israeli attitudes towards the Palestinians and the (general) attitudes of Nazi Germany to the Jews are obvious -- both see an entire race as worth less than they are. KristallNacht was a major pogrom. Wikipedia[^] defines pogrom as: The Russian word pogrom ("погром") denotes a massive violent attack on people with simultaneous destroying of their environment (homes, businesses, religious centers). Historically the term has been used to denote massive acts of violence, either spontaneous or premeditated, against Jews and other ethnic minorities living in Europe. IMHO pogrom and genocide are NOT the same, genocide wants to rid the world of a race, while pogroms are more localised and shorter lived. There will not be an equivalent to the Holocaust, but there have been occasions where you could accuse the Israelis of organising pogroms against the Palesinians --unless you think the Israelis are always justified in bulldozing homes or firing helecopter gunships at people outside of Mosques. KaЯl wrote: That's true there are some extremists on the Israeli side, asking for the deportation (!) of Palestinians, but they aren't a majority. In pretty much all of these situations the protagonists are a minority -- it's the same in Ireland. Most of Belfast and the majority of Nothern Ireland have always been quite peaceful, there are just a few areas that you would want to avoid. Dr Herbie @ Autoscribe Remember, half the people out there have below average IQs.
Dr Herbie wrote: There will not be an equivalent to the Holocaust, but there have been occasions where you could accuse the Israelis of organising pogroms against the Palesinians --unless you think the Israelis are always justified in bulldozing homes or firing helecopter gunships at people outside of Mosques. Yes, I do. You keep forgetting that Israel've never attacked first, it always responds.
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One of the most chilling things I ever saw was a TV new article where an on-the-spot reporter in Israel was stopping people on the street and asking for their opinions about their country's retalliation againt Palestinian terrorist acts. One reply came from a teenage Israeli girl who said that whenever an Israeli was killed by a Palestinian then Israel should go and kill 10 Palestinians in return because (in her words) 'One Israeli is worth at least 10 Palestinians'. I think that parallels between Israel and Nazi Germany are more than obvious. Dr Herbie @ Autoscribe Remember, half the people out there have below average IQs.
Dr Herbie wrote: One reply came from a teenage Israeli girl who said that whenever an Israeli was killed by a Palestinian then Israel should go and kill 10 Palestinians in return because (in her words) 'One Israeli is worth at least 10 Palestinians'. I'd bet a thousand dollars that there are Arabs who would say exactly the opposite - one Arab is worth at least 10 Jews. In fact, I recall reading about Saddam Hussein's upbringing; his uncle used to tell him that there are three things that shouldn't exist in the world: dogs, fleas, and Jews. The Iranians say that Israel is a cancer that need to be cut out. Am I defending their methods? No, I'm condemning your one-sided view of the situation.
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Small Dragon wrote: Yes, others killed Indians, and Palestinians, too. That does not change the fact that most of the Indians once lived in America were killed by Americans. Why do you jump when I stated the fact? Am I insulting your ancesters? Because its a biased, accusatory statement. Millions of natives were killed by disease, by Spainards, English, French, etc. You must remember that Americans were not Americans until 1776. We aren't innocent, but to single us out is absurd. Small Dragon wrote: Maybe that's how the terrorists see it. If we pay tax or drive a car in the USA, we are financing the Israeli occupation indirectly. As GWB said, "we do not distinguish terrorists from those who harbor them". With that logic, the terrorists have the right to kill everyone because no one is innocent, as you said. This is total BS.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blogJason Henderson wrote: Because its a biased, accusatory statement. Oh, forgive me ignorance. It is just so easy to be misled by communist propaganda like this[^]. In Colorado Territory, the Cheyenne and Arapahoe Indians attempted to live peacefully with the American settlers, voluntarily relocating to reservations earlier. However, the land that the reservations included was unsuitable and many of the Indians began leaving the reservations. These Indians soon found themselves involved in a series of minor skirmishes with various American settlers, especially miners, ranchers, and wagon trains. As a consequence, in 1864 Governor John Evans ordered Colonel John M Chivington, commanding US Army forces in Colorado, to begin a campaign of extermination against all "wild" Indians in the territory. In May, Chivington's forces began attacking Indian hunting parties and peaceful encampments in the war of extermination. In August, Governor Evans expands the extermination campaign by authorizing the killing of Indians by all Americans in Colorado, subsequently resulting in bands of "concerned citizens" murdering Indians on sight throughout Colorado.
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Small Dragon wrote: The reality is, US is giving Israel money, weapon, and political support. With that kind of support, of course there is no other (better) choice for Israel. The U.S. is not the only country that supports the Israeli military. Take China for instance...
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
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Jason Henderson wrote: Because its a biased, accusatory statement. Oh, forgive me ignorance. It is just so easy to be misled by communist propaganda like this[^]. In Colorado Territory, the Cheyenne and Arapahoe Indians attempted to live peacefully with the American settlers, voluntarily relocating to reservations earlier. However, the land that the reservations included was unsuitable and many of the Indians began leaving the reservations. These Indians soon found themselves involved in a series of minor skirmishes with various American settlers, especially miners, ranchers, and wagon trains. As a consequence, in 1864 Governor John Evans ordered Colonel John M Chivington, commanding US Army forces in Colorado, to begin a campaign of extermination against all "wild" Indians in the territory. In May, Chivington's forces began attacking Indian hunting parties and peaceful encampments in the war of extermination. In August, Governor Evans expands the extermination campaign by authorizing the killing of Indians by all Americans in Colorado, subsequently resulting in bands of "concerned citizens" murdering Indians on sight throughout Colorado.
Did I say we were innocent? No. But the U.S. is not the only country that ever conquered people.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
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Small Dragon wrote: The reality is, US is giving Israel money, weapon, and political support. With that kind of support, of course there is no other (better) choice for Israel. The U.S. is not the only country that supports the Israeli military. Take China for instance...
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blogJason Henderson wrote: Take China for instance... It's the other way around. Israel sells weapons to China (when US approves).
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Dr Herbie wrote: One reply came from a teenage Israeli girl who said that whenever an Israeli was killed by a Palestinian then Israel should go and kill 10 Palestinians in return because (in her words) 'One Israeli is worth at least 10 Palestinians'. I'd bet a thousand dollars that there are Arabs who would say exactly the opposite - one Arab is worth at least 10 Jews. In fact, I recall reading about Saddam Hussein's upbringing; his uncle used to tell him that there are three things that shouldn't exist in the world: dogs, fleas, and Jews. The Iranians say that Israel is a cancer that need to be cut out. Am I defending their methods? No, I'm condemning your one-sided view of the situation.
Anonymous wrote: I'm condemning your one-sided view of the situation. Firstly, you could at least step and and give a name instead of posting anonymously, then at least I'd know who I was replying to. Secondly, my view of the situation is not one-sided, but this thread was originally about the attitude of the Israeli state being at odds with their own history. It had do direct bearing on the Paelestinian view of Israelis. I have no doubt that Palestinians say similar things about Israelis, but they don't get millions of dollars of supoprt from the USA (who threrfore appear to be condoning such attitudes) and they haven't been through what the Jews went through in WW2 and so can't be expected to know first hand what it's like to be the victim. Anonymous wrote: In fact, I recall reading about Saddam Hussein's upbringing Who said anything about Saddam? Why did you suddenly throw that into the conversation? Are you obsessed or something? I can only assume that you watch a lot of American propaganda to immediately like Arab to Saddam. Care to give a name in your response, sonny? Dr Herbie @ Autoscribe Remember, half the people out there have below average IQs.
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Dr Herbie wrote: There will not be an equivalent to the Holocaust, but there have been occasions where you could accuse the Israelis of organising pogroms against the Palesinians --unless you think the Israelis are always justified in bulldozing homes or firing helecopter gunships at people outside of Mosques. Yes, I do. You keep forgetting that Israel've never attacked first, it always responds.
Igor Vigdorchik wrote: You keep forgetting that Israel've never attacked first Oh, well that's all right then. As long as they didn't start it they can continue to bully indefinitely. I suggest you read up on the Palestinian Exodus[[^](http://Palestinian Exodus "New Window")] and, indeed the whole history of the area before you start assuming you know who started this. (Actually, the British don't come out of it smelling of roses, I'm sorry to say). My point is, it doesn't matter who started what sixty-odd years ago. This thread was originally about the comparison of Israeli actions to Nazi actions. I'm not embarrassed to suggest such parallels because: 1. I can separate the Israeli state from the Jewish people. Not all Jews are Israelis and I'm going to assume that some non-Jews live in Israel. 2. I feel no guilt over what the world let happen to the Jews sixty years ago. It was the most terrible thing :((, but you can't expect the world to feel guilty for ever. We have to just remember that it happened and stop it happening again. We don't owe Israel anything anymore. 3. Israel gets so much money from the USA that it can easily afford to withdraw from the occupied territories and let the displaced Palestinians establish their own homeland. When I say afford, I mean financially and in the military sense; in the Six Day War, Israel showed that it could wipe the floor with its neighbours. I don't care who started the conflict, I am just amazed that the Israeli state can't seem to remember what it's like to be on the receiving end. Dr Herbie @ Autoscribe Remember, half the people out there have below average IQs.
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Jason Henderson wrote: Take China for instance... It's the other way around. Israel sells weapons to China (when US approves).
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Anonymous wrote: I'm condemning your one-sided view of the situation. Firstly, you could at least step and and give a name instead of posting anonymously, then at least I'd know who I was replying to. Secondly, my view of the situation is not one-sided, but this thread was originally about the attitude of the Israeli state being at odds with their own history. It had do direct bearing on the Paelestinian view of Israelis. I have no doubt that Palestinians say similar things about Israelis, but they don't get millions of dollars of supoprt from the USA (who threrfore appear to be condoning such attitudes) and they haven't been through what the Jews went through in WW2 and so can't be expected to know first hand what it's like to be the victim. Anonymous wrote: In fact, I recall reading about Saddam Hussein's upbringing Who said anything about Saddam? Why did you suddenly throw that into the conversation? Are you obsessed or something? I can only assume that you watch a lot of American propaganda to immediately like Arab to Saddam. Care to give a name in your response, sonny? Dr Herbie @ Autoscribe Remember, half the people out there have below average IQs.
Dr Herbie wrote: my view of the situation is not one-sided, but this thread was originally about the attitude of the Israeli state being at odds with their own history. I must've missed the part about the holocaust turning Jews into saints. In fact, the most common effect of abuse is that the abused turns into the abuser. Look it up any psychology book. Dr Herbie wrote: Who said anything about Saddam? No one. I'm just giving an example of Arab attitudes. Saddam's uncle is an Arab, right!? Dr Herbie wrote: Care to give a name in your response, sonny? Just got a new computer (so the cookies are gone) and I haven't bothered to track down my password yet. Does it really matter who I am? It's simply irrelevant because you should be dealing with my arguments, not my name anyway.
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Dr Herbie wrote: There will not be an equivalent to the Holocaust, but there have been occasions where you could accuse the Israelis of organising pogroms against the Palesinians --unless you think the Israelis are always justified in bulldozing homes or firing helecopter gunships at people outside of Mosques. Yes, I do. You keep forgetting that Israel've never attacked first, it always responds.
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=5&u=/ap/20040523/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_17[^] One would think if any group of people know what it is like to be treated unfairly, the people of the state of Isreal are the ones. Sure there is the problem with suicide attacks_(which i only have a problem with because i know the intent of those Hamas bastards isn't noble, otherwise i consider it a means to an end. Not everyone beleives in protesting for their rights.)_, but Isreal's actions have been out of control. It seems they only listen to the US. What i don't understand is why they're opposed to having NATO move in. It is completely unacceptable to leave Isreal to decide how to resovle that mess, they're incapable of it. Using tanks against stone throwing teenagers is beyound comprehension. I am sitting in my flame proof buncker, so don't even bother. by the way, perl stinks.
mystro_AKA_kokie wrote: Using tanks against stone throwing teenagers is beyound comprehension. So they should let the rocks hit them in the face and kill them?!?!?!? Israel should leave the Palestinian territories immediately and dismantle all of their setllements. Then the next time Palestinian freaks attack, Israel can declare war on Palestine, slaughter all of those extremists and install an actual government capable of functioning like normal people in the 21st century instead of medieval throwbacks who deserve nothing.
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Igor Vigdorchik wrote: You keep forgetting that Israel've never attacked first Oh, well that's all right then. As long as they didn't start it they can continue to bully indefinitely. I suggest you read up on the Palestinian Exodus[[^](http://Palestinian Exodus "New Window")] and, indeed the whole history of the area before you start assuming you know who started this. (Actually, the British don't come out of it smelling of roses, I'm sorry to say). My point is, it doesn't matter who started what sixty-odd years ago. This thread was originally about the comparison of Israeli actions to Nazi actions. I'm not embarrassed to suggest such parallels because: 1. I can separate the Israeli state from the Jewish people. Not all Jews are Israelis and I'm going to assume that some non-Jews live in Israel. 2. I feel no guilt over what the world let happen to the Jews sixty years ago. It was the most terrible thing :((, but you can't expect the world to feel guilty for ever. We have to just remember that it happened and stop it happening again. We don't owe Israel anything anymore. 3. Israel gets so much money from the USA that it can easily afford to withdraw from the occupied territories and let the displaced Palestinians establish their own homeland. When I say afford, I mean financially and in the military sense; in the Six Day War, Israel showed that it could wipe the floor with its neighbours. I don't care who started the conflict, I am just amazed that the Israeli state can't seem to remember what it's like to be on the receiving end. Dr Herbie @ Autoscribe Remember, half the people out there have below average IQs.
Dr Herbie wrote: I suggest you read up on the Palestinian Exodus[^] I suggest you read this Exodus http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553258478/qid=1085442879/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-5728035-1081526[^] Dr Herbie wrote: This thread was originally about the comparison of Israeli actions to Nazi actions. I'm not embarrassed to suggest such parallels You just do not know what you are talking about. And, please, do not tell me to read any books. I suggest you talk to somebody who lost their relatives during the World War 2, somebody who went through the concentration camp, somebody who fought that war... Then, maybe, just maybe, you'd start to understand a little about Nazis.
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Dr Herbie wrote: I think that parallels between Israel and Nazi Germany are more than obvious IMO, this comparison is plain stupid, it's like saying any Palestinian is a terrorist: are Israeli trying to genocide the Palestinian people? Were there some kind of KristallNacht[^] in Israel? I don't think so. That's true there are some extremists on the Israeli side, asking for the deportation (:omg:!) of Palestinians, but they aren't a majority. Moreover, there are Israeli organizations trying to help the Palestinians (Bat Salom, Women's Coalition for Peace..). Is there the same thing on the other side? Cataloging people because of their ethnic origin is deeply racist, and is a negation of the choice any individual can make.
Mais donnez-moi aussi Le courage et la force et la foi Car vous êtes le seul à donner Ce que l'on ne peut obtenir que de soi.
KaЯl wrote: are Israeli trying to genocide the Palestinian people? Not on a grand scale no, but concentrating palestinians in camps and bombing them is a good start. "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies "For example, when a VB programmer comes to my house, they may say 'does your pool need cleaning, sir ?' " - Christian Graus
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mystro_AKA_kokie wrote: Using tanks against stone throwing teenagers is beyound comprehension. So they should let the rocks hit them in the face and kill them?!?!?!? Israel should leave the Palestinian territories immediately and dismantle all of their setllements. Then the next time Palestinian freaks attack, Israel can declare war on Palestine, slaughter all of those extremists and install an actual government capable of functioning like normal people in the 21st century instead of medieval throwbacks who deserve nothing.
//placeholder for witty verbiage
Terry O`Nolley wrote: Then the next time Palestinian freaks attack, Israel can declare war on Palestine Don't you forget that the Hamas suicide bombers don't officially represents Palestine? Terry O`Nolley wrote: slaughter all of those extremists and install an actual government capable of functioning like normal people in the 21st century instead of medieval throwbacks who deserve nothing. Don't you think it would be a waste of time and energy to draw back and move in again?, because that proposal would not only worsen the Palestine/Israel conflict, it would most probably anger a lot of arabic states and do nothing good for the stability in the region. And frankly, you guys are standing in the shit you created in Iraq at the time of writing, and still you believe in such a 'solution'? :wtf: "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies "For example, when a VB programmer comes to my house, they may say 'does your pool need cleaning, sir ?' " - Christian Graus
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Dr Herbie wrote: my view of the situation is not one-sided, but this thread was originally about the attitude of the Israeli state being at odds with their own history. I must've missed the part about the holocaust turning Jews into saints. In fact, the most common effect of abuse is that the abused turns into the abuser. Look it up any psychology book. Dr Herbie wrote: Who said anything about Saddam? No one. I'm just giving an example of Arab attitudes. Saddam's uncle is an Arab, right!? Dr Herbie wrote: Care to give a name in your response, sonny? Just got a new computer (so the cookies are gone) and I haven't bothered to track down my password yet. Does it really matter who I am? It's simply irrelevant because you should be dealing with my arguments, not my name anyway.
Anonymous wrote: I must've missed the part about the holocaust turning Jews into saints. In fact, the most common effect of abuse is that the abused turns into the abuser. Look it up any psychology book. For an individual I can accept that arguement, but I don't accept that individual-based psychology can be applied to entire cultures. I didn't say the Holocaust turned Jews into saints, I said that the experience of sixty years ago should have some reflection on their attitudes to other races. Maybe my expectations are too high. I was a victim (on a small, personal scale) for several years and it taught me compassion and empathy, not violence and hatred. I fully suspect that there are many Israelis who do reflect negatively on what their government and military are doing, obviously the politician in the link from the root of this thread seemed to think so. Anonymous wrote: Does it really matter who I am? Yes. If I could read your bio, I might be more able to express my feelings and opinions in a manner that better suits your understanding of them (because I would know 'where you were comming from'), and vica-versa. Your arguments come from who you are (your history and background, not necessarily your name). Anonymous wrote: Just got a new computer (so the cookies are gone) and I haven't bothered to track down my password yet. You mean that logging into CP wasn't the first thing on you agenda? What else is there do do with a new PC? Dr Herbie Remember, half the people out there have below average IQs.
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Dr Herbie wrote: I suggest you read up on the Palestinian Exodus[^] I suggest you read this Exodus http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553258478/qid=1085442879/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-5728035-1081526[^] Dr Herbie wrote: This thread was originally about the comparison of Israeli actions to Nazi actions. I'm not embarrassed to suggest such parallels You just do not know what you are talking about. And, please, do not tell me to read any books. I suggest you talk to somebody who lost their relatives during the World War 2, somebody who went through the concentration camp, somebody who fought that war... Then, maybe, just maybe, you'd start to understand a little about Nazis.
Igor Vigdorchik wrote: I suggest you talk to somebody who lost their relatives during the World War 2, somebody who went through the concentration camp, somebody who fought that war... BUT THATS MY POINT! Within living memory the Jewish people went through the Holocaust, you'd think they might have a little compassion! You'd think they might see that what they are doing has parallels with what was done to them! That's why I was so chilled by the Israeli girl's comments! She was saying exactly the sort of thing that Germans were saying about her grandparents! Igor Vigdorchik wrote: Then, maybe, just maybe, you'd start to understand a little about Nazis. Oh, well excuse me for not being Jewish! Obviously I have no idea about inhumane treatment of one group by another as my cultural history doesn't have thousands of years of subjugation! I know quite a lot about the Nazis, thank you. You cannot grow up in Europe and not know about the Nazis. We all know that it started small, with comments like 'They're not worth as much as we are' being targetted at several minorities (not just the Jewish). We all know that it started with a nationalistic idea of removing certain groups from a country. Igor Vigdorchik wrote: _I suggest you read this Exodus http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553258478/qid=1085442879/sr=2-1/ref=sr\_2\_1/104-5728035-1081526\[^\]_ Oh, please! At least quote a historical text, not a fiction based on hostorical events! Igor Vigdorchik wrote: And, please, do not tell me to read any books. The reference wasn't a book, it was an on-line encyclopedia (did you even look?) From your reference at Amazon, it's clear that you prefer your history fictionalised. Dr Herbie Remember, half the people out there have below average IQs.