A Different Question
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"Hey that dude's house is burning down! Do you think we should wake him up?" "Nah. Leave him alone. He's asleep because he believes there is no fire. Who are we to impose our ideas on his beliefs?" "I guess so." :confused:
"How can you have order in a state without religion? For, when one man is dying of hunger near another who is ill of surfeit, he cannot resign himself to this difference unless there is an authority which declares, 'God wills it thus.' Religion is excellent stuff for keeping people quiet." -- Napoleon
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"How can you have order in a state without religion? For, when one man is dying of hunger near another who is ill of surfeit, he cannot resign himself to this difference unless there is an authority which declares, 'God wills it thus.' Religion is excellent stuff for keeping people quiet." -- Napoleon
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We've had a few religious threads today, but I want to ask a slightly different question. Obviously different people have different beliefs and we are not going to change each other's minds with a simple discussion in the Lounge. I have my own beliefs and I don't agree with some other people, but I accept that as a normal part of life. (I'm also not so uncertain of my beliefs that I need others to validate them.) So here is my question: What about religious people (of any religion) who feel the need to preach to and convert others? The sort of people who are so closed minded that they think that only they are right and everyone else should change (or perhaps they are merely trying to convince themselves)? Some of these people take it to the extreme. Some kill others in the name of their religion. Some hijack planes. Some brainwash others with their own beliefs. Some just go door to door. And some just try to convert their friends. Where do you draw the line? "Let me burn you down." -"Religion" by Front 242
Daniel Ferguson wrote: What about religious people (of any religion) who feel the need to preach to and convert others? I get annoyed by people who come to my door and are less interested in me than in earning their passport to their personal views of heaven, but surely there is nothing wrong with having something good to tell your friends ? If you found a website that sent you free money, would you tell anyone ? Assuming the money doesn't run out, that is. Daniel Ferguson wrote: sort of people who are so closed minded that they think that only they are right and everyone else should change If there *is* a God, then to the degree I am right about Him, anyone who disagrees is wrong, and to the degree someone else is right, I am wrong. If there is no God outside our imagination, then all gods exist equally. Daniel Ferguson wrote: (or perhaps they are merely trying to convince themselves)? That may be the case for some people, but anyone who takes the 'I believe this, but it's OK for you to believe that' approach does not believe in God at all. Daniel Ferguson wrote: Some kill others in the name of their religion. Some hijack planes. These people are not looking to convert anyone, they are after access to virgins. Daniel Ferguson wrote: Where do you draw the line? I don't walk around shoving things in peoples face for the sake of it, but if it comes up in conversation I am not ashamed to tell people what I have experienced, and I do that because I'd prefer my friends experience the same good things that I have. Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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It's called recruitment. Every religious organization (any organization, for that matter) needs to replace departing members, so they preach to their constituents that they must "spread the word of God/Allah/John Travolta." At the simplest level, it all boils down to one thing: money. *ducks to avoid a hurtling Book of Mormon* Jon Sagara "Ninety percent of baseball is mental, the other half is physical." -- Yogi Bera
Jon Sagara wrote: /John Travolta Isn't he a Scientologist ? Man, I can tell some stories about *those* guys. Jon Sagara wrote: At the simplest level, it all boils down to one thing: money. Generally, you are right - witness TV 'evangelism'. What's your answer for a religion not after your money ? I admit in our church we have a collection ( we need to pay for power, the mortgage, etc. ), it is NEVER emphasised, no-one knows or watches who puts money in and I've never in 12 years heard anyone try to put pressure on people to pay any amount in any context. Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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"For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone." -God, Ezekiel 18:32 Obviously Napolean didn't know too much about God. But it's true, "religion" is good stuff for keeping people quiet. I'll take God over religion anyday.
“But on the morrow all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, Ye have killed the people of the Lord. . . . And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment. And they fell upon their faces... for there is wrath gone out from the Lord; the plague is begun. ... Now they that died in the plague were fourteen thousand and seven hundred, beside them that died about the matter of Korah.” Numbers 16:41-49 No pleasure? Sure. He kills of 14000+ of his followers for questioning Moses; for using the free thought that he endowed them with. The god in the bible reminds me of an conceded, childish immoral using is omnipotent powers to amuse himself. Personally, I think the we don't see miracles any more because he got bored of playing with his humans and started playing with one of his other toys.
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Jon Sagara wrote: /John Travolta Isn't he a Scientologist ? Man, I can tell some stories about *those* guys. Jon Sagara wrote: At the simplest level, it all boils down to one thing: money. Generally, you are right - witness TV 'evangelism'. What's your answer for a religion not after your money ? I admit in our church we have a collection ( we need to pay for power, the mortgage, etc. ), it is NEVER emphasised, no-one knows or watches who puts money in and I've never in 12 years heard anyone try to put pressure on people to pay any amount in any context. Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
****Christian Graus wrote: What's your answer for a religion not after your money ? The solicitation of money is not always overt, but every organization needs money in order to function: * Places of worship - who will build them, and how will they pay for them? Parishioners. If not, then you must *recruit* a wealthy investor who is willing to put forth some serious coin. * Religious materials - who will pay to print them? where does the money come from? * Religious leaders - certainly their supreme being should sustain them, for they are doing "His" work. But this is obviously not the case. Pastors/Bishops/Padres/you-name-it all must make a living, too. They either hold side jobs or they get money from their constituents, directly or indirectly. In order to fund a movement, you need to have people who believe in it and are willing to support it. Jon Sagara "Ninety percent of baseball is mental, the other half is physical." -- Yogi Bera
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“But on the morrow all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, Ye have killed the people of the Lord. . . . And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment. And they fell upon their faces... for there is wrath gone out from the Lord; the plague is begun. ... Now they that died in the plague were fourteen thousand and seven hundred, beside them that died about the matter of Korah.” Numbers 16:41-49 No pleasure? Sure. He kills of 14000+ of his followers for questioning Moses; for using the free thought that he endowed them with. The god in the bible reminds me of an conceded, childish immoral using is omnipotent powers to amuse himself. Personally, I think the we don't see miracles any more because he got bored of playing with his humans and started playing with one of his other toys.
Henry Jacobs wrote: The god in the bible reminds me of an conceded, childish immoral using is omnipotent powers to amuse himself. Personally, I think the we don't see miracles any more because he got bored of playing with his humans and started playing with one of his other toys. Miracles continue to occur today. There's much fun for the naysayers in taking the Old Testament out of all context, but no concrete points to be made. Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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****Christian Graus wrote: What's your answer for a religion not after your money ? The solicitation of money is not always overt, but every organization needs money in order to function: * Places of worship - who will build them, and how will they pay for them? Parishioners. If not, then you must *recruit* a wealthy investor who is willing to put forth some serious coin. * Religious materials - who will pay to print them? where does the money come from? * Religious leaders - certainly their supreme being should sustain them, for they are doing "His" work. But this is obviously not the case. Pastors/Bishops/Padres/you-name-it all must make a living, too. They either hold side jobs or they get money from their constituents, directly or indirectly. In order to fund a movement, you need to have people who believe in it and are willing to support it. Jon Sagara "Ninety percent of baseball is mental, the other half is physical." -- Yogi Bera
Jon Sagara wrote: The solicitation of money is not always overt, but every organization needs money in order to function: I thought I made that point. Our church needs money to function, but any individual is free to come as long as they like and will never be pressured to pay *anything*. Nor is the concept pushed in any way beyond the bag being passed around ( a bag so that no-one can see if/what people put in, unlike a plate ). Jon Sagara wrote: Places of worship - who will build them, and how will they pay for them? Parishioners. If not, then you must *recruit* a wealthy investor who is willing to put forth some serious coin. That's the example I gave. Jon Sagara wrote: Religious materials - who will pay to print them? where does the money come from? People buy their own Bibles. What else do they need ? Jon Sagara wrote: Religious leaders - certainly their supreme being should sustain them, for they are doing "His" work. But this is obviously not the case. Pastors/Bishops/Padres/you-name-it all must make a living, too. They either hold side jobs or they get money from their constituents, directly or indirectly. Our leaders are unpaid. Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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"For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone." -God, Ezekiel 18:32 Obviously Napolean didn't know too much about God. But it's true, "religion" is good stuff for keeping people quiet. I'll take God over religion anyday.
Kevin Ranville wrote: But it's true, "religion" is good stuff for keeping people quiet. I'll take God over religion anyday. I think a lot of people get God and religion confused. (Not meant personally. :))
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Jon Sagara wrote: The solicitation of money is not always overt, but every organization needs money in order to function: I thought I made that point. Our church needs money to function, but any individual is free to come as long as they like and will never be pressured to pay *anything*. Nor is the concept pushed in any way beyond the bag being passed around ( a bag so that no-one can see if/what people put in, unlike a plate ). Jon Sagara wrote: Places of worship - who will build them, and how will they pay for them? Parishioners. If not, then you must *recruit* a wealthy investor who is willing to put forth some serious coin. That's the example I gave. Jon Sagara wrote: Religious materials - who will pay to print them? where does the money come from? People buy their own Bibles. What else do they need ? Jon Sagara wrote: Religious leaders - certainly their supreme being should sustain them, for they are doing "His" work. But this is obviously not the case. Pastors/Bishops/Padres/you-name-it all must make a living, too. They either hold side jobs or they get money from their constituents, directly or indirectly. Our leaders are unpaid. Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
Please excuse me, I have a ton of fantastic ideas in my little nogin, but some of them never seem to make it past my fingertips, onto the keyboard, and into digital nirvana. I wasn't perfectly clear in my original post. When I said it was about money, I didn't mean that these peddlers come door-to-door asking for money. Most of the time they are not that shallow. However, they believe they are part of a greater cause ("saving" human kind from sin), and hence go fervently about their duties of attracting more people to their cause. Whether or not they realize it, it is *this* act that is about money at the most basic level. More people, more money. No people, no money. Organized religion can't exist without money. Therefore, recruit as many people as you can. If they believe they are saving peoples' souls, fine, but that doesn't change the basic nature of what they're doing - trying to get more money. I think I have just broken one of those "lounge rules" posted a while back. :) Jon Sagara "Ninety percent of baseball is mental, the other half is physical." -- Yogi Bera
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Please excuse me, I have a ton of fantastic ideas in my little nogin, but some of them never seem to make it past my fingertips, onto the keyboard, and into digital nirvana. I wasn't perfectly clear in my original post. When I said it was about money, I didn't mean that these peddlers come door-to-door asking for money. Most of the time they are not that shallow. However, they believe they are part of a greater cause ("saving" human kind from sin), and hence go fervently about their duties of attracting more people to their cause. Whether or not they realize it, it is *this* act that is about money at the most basic level. More people, more money. No people, no money. Organized religion can't exist without money. Therefore, recruit as many people as you can. If they believe they are saving peoples' souls, fine, but that doesn't change the basic nature of what they're doing - trying to get more money. I think I have just broken one of those "lounge rules" posted a while back. :) Jon Sagara "Ninety percent of baseball is mental, the other half is physical." -- Yogi Bera
I'm not sure why my point remains so unclear, but every organisation from the cricket club on requires money to survive. More people = more money if people HAVE to pay, otherwise it may well mean more cost. Who is getting more money, if the money in question is in trust and is used solely to provide for the needs of the people ( a hall, firewood, coffee, etc. ) ? Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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Henry Jacobs wrote: The god in the bible reminds me of an conceded, childish immoral using is omnipotent powers to amuse himself. Personally, I think the we don't see miracles any more because he got bored of playing with his humans and started playing with one of his other toys. Miracles continue to occur today. There's much fun for the naysayers in taking the Old Testament out of all context, but no concrete points to be made. Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
I mean science defying miracles like parting the red sea, not child birth and the like. I do not consider finding god, peace, or whatever a miracle. A miracle is an extremely outstanding or unusual event (source: mw). I hope this opportunity is available to everyone.
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I mean science defying miracles like parting the red sea, not child birth and the like. I do not consider finding god, peace, or whatever a miracle. A miracle is an extremely outstanding or unusual event (source: mw). I hope this opportunity is available to everyone.
Henry Jacobs wrote: I mean science defying miracles like parting the red sea, not child birth and the like. So do I. Henry Jacobs wrote: I do not consider finding god, peace, or whatever a miracle. It's not, it's an emotional experience caused by chemical reactions in our minds. That's why so many people experience it in so many different contexts, void of real proof. Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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I'm not sure why my point remains so unclear, but every organisation from the cricket club on requires money to survive. More people = more money if people HAVE to pay, otherwise it may well mean more cost. Who is getting more money, if the money in question is in trust and is used solely to provide for the needs of the people ( a hall, firewood, coffee, etc. ) ? Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
****Christian Graus wrote: I'm not sure why my point remains so unclear, but every organisation from the cricket club on requires money to survive. We've both been arguing the same point. ****Christian Graus wrote: Who is getting more money, if the money in question is in trust and is used solely to provide for the needs of the people ( a hall, firewood, coffee, etc. ) ? The church, which was my point to begin with. And how do you know that the money is used for "good and right purposes" only? Prime example: the Vatican contains priceless art. What religious purpose does that serve? I know this doesn't directly affect churches at the local level, but do remember that your leaders are human, too, and are subject to frivolity. I see this turning into another "God vs. No god" pissing contest. It's like being floored in neutral - the engine is revved up, but you're just wasting gas. I think this "simple" argument can be further broken down into: "You believe in God. I don't." We've been there and done that before, so no need to do it again. Jon Sagara "Ninety percent of baseball is mental, the other half is physical." -- Yogi Bera
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****Christian Graus wrote: I'm not sure why my point remains so unclear, but every organisation from the cricket club on requires money to survive. We've both been arguing the same point. ****Christian Graus wrote: Who is getting more money, if the money in question is in trust and is used solely to provide for the needs of the people ( a hall, firewood, coffee, etc. ) ? The church, which was my point to begin with. And how do you know that the money is used for "good and right purposes" only? Prime example: the Vatican contains priceless art. What religious purpose does that serve? I know this doesn't directly affect churches at the local level, but do remember that your leaders are human, too, and are subject to frivolity. I see this turning into another "God vs. No god" pissing contest. It's like being floored in neutral - the engine is revved up, but you're just wasting gas. I think this "simple" argument can be further broken down into: "You believe in God. I don't." We've been there and done that before, so no need to do it again. Jon Sagara "Ninety percent of baseball is mental, the other half is physical." -- Yogi Bera
Jon... Are you serious? What religious purpose does the priceless art in the Vatican serve? You gotta be kidding? The best way to look at the priceless art in the Vatican is to consider it part of the family's heirlooms, bequeathed to future generations of Christians for their pleasure and edification. But your whole "it is for the money" argument doesn't hold water. Most local churhes are shockingly poor. And even historically, the norm of a celibate priesthood might very well have been to ensure that the priestly class weren't building treasure up to enrich the family through generations (not that some of that didn't occur anyway, but it helped minimize it). If Christianity was about the money I doubt twelve confused, misguided and fumbling men, parked in the backwater of first century Palestine, would have been able to start something that ended up dominating the western world for the next 20 centuries.
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Jon... Are you serious? What religious purpose does the priceless art in the Vatican serve? You gotta be kidding? The best way to look at the priceless art in the Vatican is to consider it part of the family's heirlooms, bequeathed to future generations of Christians for their pleasure and edification. But your whole "it is for the money" argument doesn't hold water. Most local churhes are shockingly poor. And even historically, the norm of a celibate priesthood might very well have been to ensure that the priestly class weren't building treasure up to enrich the family through generations (not that some of that didn't occur anyway, but it helped minimize it). If Christianity was about the money I doubt twelve confused, misguided and fumbling men, parked in the backwater of first century Palestine, would have been able to start something that ended up dominating the western world for the next 20 centuries.
John McIlroy wrote: If Christianity was about the money I doubt twelve confused, misguided and fumbling men, parked in the backwater of first century Palestine, would have been able to start something that ended up dominating the western world for the next 20 centuries. A lot of really successful corporations began in a garage. I'm sure Christianity will make it some day too. ;P
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Jon... Are you serious? What religious purpose does the priceless art in the Vatican serve? You gotta be kidding? The best way to look at the priceless art in the Vatican is to consider it part of the family's heirlooms, bequeathed to future generations of Christians for their pleasure and edification. But your whole "it is for the money" argument doesn't hold water. Most local churhes are shockingly poor. And even historically, the norm of a celibate priesthood might very well have been to ensure that the priestly class weren't building treasure up to enrich the family through generations (not that some of that didn't occur anyway, but it helped minimize it). If Christianity was about the money I doubt twelve confused, misguided and fumbling men, parked in the backwater of first century Palestine, would have been able to start something that ended up dominating the western world for the next 20 centuries.
*sigh* I thought I was done, but... John McIlroy wrote: Are you serious? What religious purpose does the priceless art in the Vatican serve? You gotta be kidding? The best way to look at the priceless art in the Vatican is to consider it part of the family's heirlooms, bequeathed to future generations of Christians for their pleasure and edification. I fail to see how art fosters edification. Art is a material object and has nothing to do with virtue and piety. Art may inspire people, sure, but there is nothing holy about art itself. Why don't they sell this priceless art to feed the poor? Because the day after, the poor would still be hungry, so selling the art is a waste of *money*. The art will not make people go to heaven. The art will not save souls. The art only increases the financial value of the Vatican. Art is for pleasure, not edification. John McIlroy wrote: But your whole "it is for the money" argument doesn't hold water. Most local churhes are shockingly poor. Right. But they would be non-existent without a congregation. Therefore, they need people because they need money to survive. John McIlroy wrote: If Christianity was about the money I doubt twelve confused, misguided and fumbling men, parked in the backwater of first century Palestine, would have been able to start something that ended up dominating the western world for the next 20 centuries. That's based on the huge assumption that you hold the Bible to be true. I don't. Jon Sagara "Ninety percent of baseball is mental, the other half is physical." -- Yogi Bera
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Jon... Are you serious? What religious purpose does the priceless art in the Vatican serve? You gotta be kidding? The best way to look at the priceless art in the Vatican is to consider it part of the family's heirlooms, bequeathed to future generations of Christians for their pleasure and edification. But your whole "it is for the money" argument doesn't hold water. Most local churhes are shockingly poor. And even historically, the norm of a celibate priesthood might very well have been to ensure that the priestly class weren't building treasure up to enrich the family through generations (not that some of that didn't occur anyway, but it helped minimize it). If Christianity was about the money I doubt twelve confused, misguided and fumbling men, parked in the backwater of first century Palestine, would have been able to start something that ended up dominating the western world for the next 20 centuries.
John McIlroy wrote: If Christianity was about the money I doubt twelve confused, misguided and fumbling men, parked in the backwater of first century Palestine, would have been able to start something that ended up dominating the western world for the next 20 centuries. John, its not the "same" Christianity now that it was at the time of the deciples. Sure times change but a lot has been added to the 4 testamentss probably starting at the time of Saul aka Paul. If you are to consider the 3 original Christian lineages, of (Orthodox || Nonorthodox), Coptic and Nostic, you'll certainly find those lines that made the greater modifcations to the testaments and created tithing and other tributary systems, dominated the Western world, not the lineages that stuck to Jesus's words. These days the Coptic Papacy is almost unheard of. And simlar due to politics there are disputes as to whether the Nostics still truly exist. History proves the point, John McIlroy wrote: Are you serious? What religious purpose does the priceless art in the Vatican serve? You gotta be kidding? The best way to look at the priceless art in the Vatican is to consider it part of the family's heirlooms, bequeathed to future generations of Christians for their pleasure and edification. Bequeathing heirlooms may be nice but serves little purpose in true faith or religeon. The reason that Cathedrals were built so magnificiently, artisitic treasures and religeous artifacts were displayed, was to stun the uneducated peasant classes into seeing part of Gods Glory, and the promise of the Kingdom to come in heaven. History also shows that when new Cathedrals were completed, market towns followed and trade boomed, giving a spin-off effect into the local economy of the Feudal Lord. Who coincidentally had sponsered the Cathedrals construction. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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John McIlroy wrote: If Christianity was about the money I doubt twelve confused, misguided and fumbling men, parked in the backwater of first century Palestine, would have been able to start something that ended up dominating the western world for the next 20 centuries. A lot of really successful corporations began in a garage. I'm sure Christianity will make it some day too. ;P
Ahhh... I wish I didn't have an exam tomorrow. I always enjoy a little give and take with the materialists and the gaping holes in their reasoning, but tonight is not a good night. Maybe we can continue this a little later!!! JM
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Ahhh... I wish I didn't have an exam tomorrow. I always enjoy a little give and take with the materialists and the gaping holes in their reasoning, but tonight is not a good night. Maybe we can continue this a little later!!! JM
John McIlroy wrote: I always enjoy a little give and take with the materialists and the gaping holes in their reasoning Can you believe this guy? John, you have yet to provide one single argument which cannot be - by your own double standards - reliably countered. I should say from that that you are the one with gaping holes in your reasoning, or an inability to effectively communicate them. ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't got the guts to bite people themselves" - August Strindberg