a hypothetical moral question...
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suppose u work for a bunch of people who are a startup ... they are growing steadily but as ever money is always an issue one day they ask u to add a page to a website that has a link to another site (run by people who are paying a lot of money to the people who pay ur wages) that tries to install spyware / adware on peoples computers would u resign the job or do it?
Good question. If I were in your shoes, this is probably what I'd do: 1. Bring up a legitimate business case for not linking to the spyware. Have some examples of sites/companies that tried to do this but ended up losing out revenue because of this. Intuit (TurboTax) comes ot mind... 2. Get that resume updated! Sure, it's nice to have food, but if your company is resorting to these means, who really knows how much longer it'll be around? So in short, I'd bring up point 1 with the powers that be. I probably wouldn't quit *immediately* - it's somewhat of an ethical issue, but you aren't killing anybody. But I would start looking for new jobs immediately. And totally by coincidence, we're hiring... ;) "Fish and guests stink in three days." - Benjamin Franlkin
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Well there are two keywords in the original thread... "startup" and "spyware" The company is going to be gone in a month at the very least. They should haven't to resort to spyware. Yes there are rare (VERY RARE cases where a startup has gotten away with it, but then again they are in turn for a lighting strike) If the company goes under you have no source of income, will you be prepared or will you drag on and all of a sudden be without a job. Thats just my opinion, it's all up the the person who is in that position. -Steven Hicks
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well, i doubt that being homeless and begging for food would follow that decision... morals have nothing to do with immediate benefit... and because of that the answer should be clear.
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l a u r e n wrote: would u resign the job or do it? I would do it: 1. Because, if I got it right, your site is not installing spyware, you're just linking to one that installs it. You're not legally responsible for any website you link to. 2. Someone will do it. 3. Most important, I need the money (I'm supposing you need the money). I would point then that this I believe that this is in the border between ethical and unethical work, and that I'm looking for a new job, and they should look for a new programmer to replace me. I would be looking for a new job, because: 1. I don't want to do any further jobs like this 2. The company is probably going to ruin by adopting unethical or borderline practices*, so I would need to look for a job anyways... * Yes, I do believe that unethical or borderline practices ruin a company. You can even pick me a company and say "hey, this company has been doing this for a long time and it's growing". But it will ruin the company. Yes, even I am blogging now!
Daniel Turini wrote: * Yes, I do believe that unethical or borderline practices ruin a company. You can even pick me a company and say "hey, this company has been doing this for a long time and it's growing". But it will ruin the company. This is absolutely true I've seen it happen. -Steven Hicks
CPA
CodeProjectAddict
Actual Linux Penguins were harmed in the creation of this message.
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well, i doubt that being homeless and begging for food would follow that decision... morals have nothing to do with immediate benefit... and because of that the answer should be clear.
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suppose u work for a bunch of people who are a startup ... they are growing steadily but as ever money is always an issue one day they ask u to add a page to a website that has a link to another site (run by people who are paying a lot of money to the people who pay ur wages) that tries to install spyware / adware on peoples computers would u resign the job or do it?
In my circumstances, I would resign if it really is 'spyware'. (I don't count ad cookies like doubleclick as spyware. To me, it's gotta be executing it's own code to be spyware) Like others have pointed out, no company has ever been created whose primary revenue stream was being the shill for spyware companies. It's always a last-gasp of a dying company. Do it or not, you've probably got 10 paychecks left at most. But there's a bigger issue here... Your spending habits have got you by the short hairs. If already know you need the next 3 months' paychecks, you need to take a serious look at your financial situation. You need to ask yourself how much you really need all that stuff you have, because it's putting you in situations where you genuinely have to choose between principles and survival. Personally, I like to keep six months' expenses (not wages - expenses) in cash savings all the time. I can afford to say "screw you, I don't wanna put spyware on people's machines". I can also say "screw you, I don't wanna work for you bastards", if I happened to end up working for bastards at some point (I don't currently). My point is simple - don't set yourself up to work for next payday. All the stuff really isn't worth it, at least in my opinion :) -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
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fair enough.
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suppose u work for a bunch of people who are a startup ... they are growing steadily but as ever money is always an issue one day they ask u to add a page to a website that has a link to another site (run by people who are paying a lot of money to the people who pay ur wages) that tries to install spyware / adware on peoples computers would u resign the job or do it?
I'd argue against it, then if I lost, look for another job and then quit. If I was young, single and free of financial responsibilities, then I'd just quit. Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
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l a u r e n wrote: this was explained to the powers that be ... in great detail and with great "enthusiasm" You mean hypothetically, right ? :P Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
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l a u r e n wrote: this was explained to the powers that be ... in great detail and with great "enthusiasm" You mean hypothetically, right ? :P Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
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In my circumstances, I would resign if it really is 'spyware'. (I don't count ad cookies like doubleclick as spyware. To me, it's gotta be executing it's own code to be spyware) Like others have pointed out, no company has ever been created whose primary revenue stream was being the shill for spyware companies. It's always a last-gasp of a dying company. Do it or not, you've probably got 10 paychecks left at most. But there's a bigger issue here... Your spending habits have got you by the short hairs. If already know you need the next 3 months' paychecks, you need to take a serious look at your financial situation. You need to ask yourself how much you really need all that stuff you have, because it's putting you in situations where you genuinely have to choose between principles and survival. Personally, I like to keep six months' expenses (not wages - expenses) in cash savings all the time. I can afford to say "screw you, I don't wanna put spyware on people's machines". I can also say "screw you, I don't wanna work for you bastards", if I happened to end up working for bastards at some point (I don't currently). My point is simple - don't set yourself up to work for next payday. All the stuff really isn't worth it, at least in my opinion :) -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
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and the question becomes a little less hypothetical :) now that i'm married with pets with a house payment and everything, i would probably voice my displeasure with the situation, and when the boss tells me to do it anyway I would. Then update my resume and start looking for another job. Laterness... Doug
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suppose u work for a bunch of people who are a startup ... they are growing steadily but as ever money is always an issue one day they ask u to add a page to a website that has a link to another site (run by people who are paying a lot of money to the people who pay ur wages) that tries to install spyware / adware on peoples computers would u resign the job or do it?
I would first try to argue on the basis of how it would hurt their own interests, then on the basis of ethics, and then if that didn't work, I'd get out of there. But then, that's just my take on the situation - ultimately, it's up to your friend to decide, and I wish her luck. :rose: :)
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."
-- Dwight D. Eisenhower -
In my circumstances, I would resign if it really is 'spyware'. (I don't count ad cookies like doubleclick as spyware. To me, it's gotta be executing it's own code to be spyware) Like others have pointed out, no company has ever been created whose primary revenue stream was being the shill for spyware companies. It's always a last-gasp of a dying company. Do it or not, you've probably got 10 paychecks left at most. But there's a bigger issue here... Your spending habits have got you by the short hairs. If already know you need the next 3 months' paychecks, you need to take a serious look at your financial situation. You need to ask yourself how much you really need all that stuff you have, because it's putting you in situations where you genuinely have to choose between principles and survival. Personally, I like to keep six months' expenses (not wages - expenses) in cash savings all the time. I can afford to say "screw you, I don't wanna put spyware on people's machines". I can also say "screw you, I don't wanna work for you bastards", if I happened to end up working for bastards at some point (I don't currently). My point is simple - don't set yourself up to work for next payday. All the stuff really isn't worth it, at least in my opinion :) -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
That's always good if you can do it, but unfortunately, some people are in a situation where they can't really get ahead like that because they can't afford even to set a little aside. I don't know her friend's situation, but I just wanted to point that out.
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."
-- Dwight D. Eisenhower -
suppose u work for a bunch of people who are a startup ... they are growing steadily but as ever money is always an issue one day they ask u to add a page to a website that has a link to another site (run by people who are paying a lot of money to the people who pay ur wages) that tries to install spyware / adware on peoples computers would u resign the job or do it?
I once worked for a company that I liked, but quit when they fired my supervisor the instant the product we'd finished was on the truck. Another time I quit when the boss wanted me to design a product to defraud the purchaser. Both those times were in those halcyon days when I could get a job without even trying. These days, when it can take me six months to a year to get a job, with still a mortgage to feed, I'm not sure what I'd do. My advice... a craven compromise... is to line up another job and then give notice with an explanation. If you don't do it, someone else will, and why should you jeopardize your finances because your employer's a dweeb? It all depends on how you'll feel telling the story: "I quit that day!" sounds good but people will ask if you were in your right mind to give up a paying job like that. "I did it... but I quit soon thereafter" has that satisfying sense of common sense reality to it. "I did it... because I need the money" has its own feeling to it. Which story can you live with? My condolences on your situation, and if you know of any openings for a veteran C++ games programmer such as myself... drop me a line. ;) Dave Goodman dgoodman@infoway.com www.dkgoodman.com "Actio sequitur esse."
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suppose u work for a bunch of people who are a startup ... they are growing steadily but as ever money is always an issue one day they ask u to add a page to a website that has a link to another site (run by people who are paying a lot of money to the people who pay ur wages) that tries to install spyware / adware on peoples computers would u resign the job or do it?
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suppose u work for a bunch of people who are a startup ... they are growing steadily but as ever money is always an issue one day they ask u to add a page to a website that has a link to another site (run by people who are paying a lot of money to the people who pay ur wages) that tries to install spyware / adware on peoples computers would u resign the job or do it?
It is times such as this that defines a persons character. If the person has their character up for sale, I would imagine the person could get a better price :) For me, if it was real spyware and the management had full knowledge of what they were doing, I would not do it even if it meant the job. There is usually more work out there if you look hard enough and have the skills, that a person does not have to sell out their character.. Of course if you do not have any character it is an easy answer ;) Rocky <>< www.HintsAndTips.com www.GotTheAnswerToSpam.com
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suppose u work for a bunch of people who are a startup ... they are growing steadily but as ever money is always an issue one day they ask u to add a page to a website that has a link to another site (run by people who are paying a lot of money to the people who pay ur wages) that tries to install spyware / adware on peoples computers would u resign the job or do it?
Resign. "Someone else would do it if I didn't". "I have to pay my rent". Yeah, and as long as people reson this way, why not start intrusive porn-sites? Why stop at spyware? Why not start working for spammers? Harvest credit card numbers? Have a few e-mail scams running? Robbing banks? Selling drugs? Smuggling weapons?
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suppose u work for a bunch of people who are a startup ... they are growing steadily but as ever money is always an issue one day they ask u to add a page to a website that has a link to another site (run by people who are paying a lot of money to the people who pay ur wages) that tries to install spyware / adware on peoples computers would u resign the job or do it?
While I was in San Diego, I turned down a 6-figure salary from a company that sold internet-based backup services. I didn't think that sucking up bandwidth by providing backup serverices was the proper and corrcet use of the internet, so I turned down the job (it was > $150k and < $200k per year. At the time,I was making about $55k. The company has long since been out of business. If you can land other job prospects, leave. One last thing, leave the spyware stuff off the page as long as you can while you're looking for other employment. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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l a u r e n wrote: dude i appreciate the advice but u are so way off base that i wont even answer u Perhaps I assumed too much - if that's the case, I apologize :rose: But the situation you're describing - having to worry a whole lot about the next paycheck - is unfortunately common among some of my close friends. If you ask them, they just can't afford to put any aside at the moment. But what I think they fail to see is that alot of the stuff they're paying for isn't really as necessary as they've come to believe. That being said, I can think of situations where people really are strapped for their next paycheck: kids/family, serious medical issues, student loans, etc... My advice probably wouldn't do much for them, as it involves not getting into those situations in the first place if you can avoid it... Anyway, I didn't mean to sound condescending. Sorry if it looked that way... -- Russell Morris "So, broccoli, mother says you're good for me... but I'm afraid I'm no good for you!" - Stewy
