Why all the MS bashing?
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This place is starting to sound like /. when people speak about MS. Why is that? I mean, I can understand it when all the posters are some Linux people that hates everything not open source, and especially when it's from MS. But here on CP? I thought most of us were developing for MS technologies, so I guess a lot of people only does that as there is no money in developing for Linux, or because the dev-tools sucks. I work with Windows as I think it's a great OS (and I can get money for doing it ;) ) I think it's sad to see. I think it started when John Simmons started using Linux a few years ago, and then Lauren joined too, and then it slowly became legitimate, on CP, to hate MS :sigh: - Anders ShotKeeper, my Photo Album / Organizer Application[^]
My Photos[^]Anders Molin wrote: This place is starting to sound like /. when people speak about MS. That seems a bit extreme. Anders Molin wrote: I thought most of us were developing for MS technologies Well, you just answered your own question. It's people like us that end up hitting a brick wall because of some sealed class or non-virtual method or just a plain bug in MFC or .NET or COM or tool or whatever, because we ARE developers trying to use MS tools and technologies. And when we have deadlines, bosses breathing down our neck, or spending basically unbillable time trying to figure out a workaround to an MS "feature", then yes, we're going to get onto CP and tell other people about it. I don't think that's MS bashing. A lot of the comments I see here b&m'ing about MS are real problems that real devs (erm, no pun intended) have had real encounters with. Marc MyXaml Advanced Unit Testing
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I never said that I hate MS. I don't even agree that applications should necessarily be open-source. What I don't like is the state of the industry, and the current state is directly related to Microsoft's monopolistic practices. I've also never said that I think everyone should switch to Linux, nor have I ever derided them for not doing so. I've also stated several times that the idea behind Windows is a good one - provide a graphical user interface with a consistent look/feel across compliant applications and supportfor every piece of hardware known to man. This reduces the learning curve on applications because people soon learn to expect certain features to be in certain places. Microsoft has eliminated pretty much every niche market where applications are concerned, and it started when they shipped IE with Win95. XP even contains it's own zip/unzip functionality and CD burning capabilities. More recently, Microsoft has even begun dictating terms to component hardware manufacturers. Hell, they even have a game console! Lastly, with Microsoft's postition, they have no reason to keep over-charging for Windows. Seriously, who wants to pay $300 for an OS with decent networking capabilities? I'm about to buy a 64-bit system, and Windows won't be on it. Why? Because there is no commercially available version of Windows that supports the architecture, even if there was, it would cost more than I'm willing to pay, and lastly, I can run a 64-bit Linux distro NOW and still run Windows apps without booting to Windows. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: Microsoft has eliminated pretty much every niche market where applications are concerned, and it started when they shipped IE with Win95. XP even contains it's own zip/unzip functionality and CD burning capabilities. And free Open Source software will eliminate what's left. As a small independant software developer and publisher this is of great concern to me. Neville Franks, Author of ED for Windows www.getsoft.com and coming soon: Surfulater www.surfulater.com
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I've been programming under windows since the 3.1 days, and frankly I'm unimpressed with what MS has accomplished over the past 15 years. I still make my living programming under Windows, but after getting repeatedly burned trying to use the latest and greatest thing they are pushing (DDE, COM, DCOM, SOAP, etc) I think I'll pass on .Net until the dust clears. MS has always been more focused on marketing than technology and the effects of this are really beginning to show.
here here. I can honestly say that I've spent more time studying DDE, OLE, COM and DCOM than I ever did implementing them. I just couldn't be bothered with SOAP. I'd seriously advise looking into .NET though as it's not just specific flash in the pan technology with the language support it's going to stick around and I strongly suspect that in a few years time it's going to be a kind of MFC situation where it's possible to do things without using it but it takes so much time and effort that in the long run you'll end up wishing you'd used it. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
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This place is starting to sound like /. when people speak about MS. Why is that? I mean, I can understand it when all the posters are some Linux people that hates everything not open source, and especially when it's from MS. But here on CP? I thought most of us were developing for MS technologies, so I guess a lot of people only does that as there is no money in developing for Linux, or because the dev-tools sucks. I work with Windows as I think it's a great OS (and I can get money for doing it ;) ) I think it's sad to see. I think it started when John Simmons started using Linux a few years ago, and then Lauren joined too, and then it slowly became legitimate, on CP, to hate MS :sigh: - Anders ShotKeeper, my Photo Album / Organizer Application[^]
My Photos[^]Well, first of all, everything John Simmons said. Secondly, for such a big company, they seem to release crap. I was so burned by how bad DirectX 9 is for playing video under C#, I would be ashamed to release code in that format as a beta, let alone a flagship product. But there's good with the bad - C# rocks my world, and I am looking forward to my latest Amazon order so I can start finding out about all the cool stuff in the next iteration of the IDE. Does anyone know if xsl editing/debugging is going to be part of the new IDE ? That'll save me buying a third party product.... Christian I have drunk the cool-aid and found it wan and bitter. - Chris Maunder
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This place is starting to sound like /. when people speak about MS. Why is that? I mean, I can understand it when all the posters are some Linux people that hates everything not open source, and especially when it's from MS. But here on CP? I thought most of us were developing for MS technologies, so I guess a lot of people only does that as there is no money in developing for Linux, or because the dev-tools sucks. I work with Windows as I think it's a great OS (and I can get money for doing it ;) ) I think it's sad to see. I think it started when John Simmons started using Linux a few years ago, and then Lauren joined too, and then it slowly became legitimate, on CP, to hate MS :sigh: - Anders ShotKeeper, my Photo Album / Organizer Application[^]
My Photos[^]First off, i wish it to be known that from the first post i made on this site, i've spoken against MS whenever i felt the situation called for it. Second, i wish it to be known that i do a lot of GUI coding, with clunky Win32 controls and the requirement to remain compatible with older versions of Windows. So i run into a lot of situations that call for bashing. ;) :-O Finally, i wish it to be known that, while coding for MS software provides my bread and butter, if all MS software were to drop out of existence tomorrow i would still have the same job - i'd just be using a different set of libraries. That said, MS makes some great software, and they've improved by leaps and bounds over the years. When i first kicked DOS and Windows 3.1 off my machine to install OS/2, it was like a breath of fresh air. When the HD i had Win95 installed on died and i spent the rest of the year with a Linux-only machine, i suffered no hardship. But i can honestly say, Win2k and WinXP have features i would miss, and though it chaffs me to have to develop for previous versions it is also a reminder of how far they have come. Now, that's not going to prevent me from ripping on IE (because it's a slowly-evolving program targeting a quickly-changing market), or from complaining about Visual Studio (because when the VS team was raiding the office team for developers, they took the toolbar coders and left the usability experts). This stuff is my life, in one way or another i use it every day, and even small defects build up huge amounts of irritation over time. That's Life...
You**'re one microscopic cog** in his catastrophic plan... -
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: Microsoft has eliminated pretty much every niche market where applications are concerned, and it started when they shipped IE with Win95. XP even contains it's own zip/unzip functionality and CD burning capabilities. And free Open Source software will eliminate what's left. As a small independant software developer and publisher this is of great concern to me. Neville Franks, Author of ED for Windows www.getsoft.com and coming soon: Surfulater www.surfulater.com
Neville Franks wrote: And free Open Source software will eliminate what's left. As a small independant software developer and publisher this is of great concern to me. I agree with you, but what most people don't realize is alot of those added features that MS included with Windows (such as cd-burning) were written by companies that make full versions of those products (ie Roxio wrote the cdr support for XP) Matt Newman
...armed with what? spitballs!? - Zell Miller
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Neville Franks wrote: And free Open Source software will eliminate what's left. As a small independant software developer and publisher this is of great concern to me. I agree with you, but what most people don't realize is alot of those added features that MS included with Windows (such as cd-burning) were written by companies that make full versions of those products (ie Roxio wrote the cdr support for XP) Matt Newman
...armed with what? spitballs!? - Zell Miller
Matt Newman wrote: I agree with you, but what most people don't realize is alot of those added features that MS included with Windows (such as cd-burning) were written by companies that make full versions of those products (ie Roxio wrote the cdr support for XP) One has to assume that features such as CD burning were adding because MS's customers wanted them. I also assume that Roxio did ok out of this. I get the impression that Nero have a pretty successful business, in which case MS hasn't killed this particular market. Typically when MS add stuff like this they only include the most basic of capabilities, which leaves room for the more sophisticated products. I still use WinZip most of the time for example. Neville Franks, Author of ED for Windows www.getsoft.com and coming soon: Surfulater www.surfulater.com
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This place is starting to sound like /. when people speak about MS. Why is that? I mean, I can understand it when all the posters are some Linux people that hates everything not open source, and especially when it's from MS. But here on CP? I thought most of us were developing for MS technologies, so I guess a lot of people only does that as there is no money in developing for Linux, or because the dev-tools sucks. I work with Windows as I think it's a great OS (and I can get money for doing it ;) ) I think it's sad to see. I think it started when John Simmons started using Linux a few years ago, and then Lauren joined too, and then it slowly became legitimate, on CP, to hate MS :sigh: - Anders ShotKeeper, my Photo Album / Organizer Application[^]
My Photos[^]Pro-Firefox != Anti-Microsoft As for "bashing", I think some of us idealists konw that Microsofties view this site, and have hopes that if they see a large segment of their developers complaning, that perhaps they can distill the legitimate points and use that information to make better products. An expert is somebody who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
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Anders Molin wrote: because the dev-tools sucks Hmmm. I wouldn't agree with this. Unix dev tools are generally very powerful and flexible; however it is true that the learning curve can be pretty steep. Anyway, what I really dislike about Linux is not the OS per se, but rather the political and ideological stigma around it. Technology should serve people, not the other way around.
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: Technology should serve people, not the other way around. 5! -- Suche gut gebauten Achtzehn bis Dreißigjährigen zum Schlachten. Der Metzgermeister
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First off, i wish it to be known that from the first post i made on this site, i've spoken against MS whenever i felt the situation called for it. Second, i wish it to be known that i do a lot of GUI coding, with clunky Win32 controls and the requirement to remain compatible with older versions of Windows. So i run into a lot of situations that call for bashing. ;) :-O Finally, i wish it to be known that, while coding for MS software provides my bread and butter, if all MS software were to drop out of existence tomorrow i would still have the same job - i'd just be using a different set of libraries. That said, MS makes some great software, and they've improved by leaps and bounds over the years. When i first kicked DOS and Windows 3.1 off my machine to install OS/2, it was like a breath of fresh air. When the HD i had Win95 installed on died and i spent the rest of the year with a Linux-only machine, i suffered no hardship. But i can honestly say, Win2k and WinXP have features i would miss, and though it chaffs me to have to develop for previous versions it is also a reminder of how far they have come. Now, that's not going to prevent me from ripping on IE (because it's a slowly-evolving program targeting a quickly-changing market), or from complaining about Visual Studio (because when the VS team was raiding the office team for developers, they took the toolbar coders and left the usability experts). This stuff is my life, in one way or another i use it every day, and even small defects build up huge amounts of irritation over time. That's Life...
You**'re one microscopic cog** in his catastrophic plan...Shog9 wrote: Second, i wish it to be known that i do a lot of GUI coding, with clunky Win32 controls and the requirement to remain compatible with older versions of Windows. Delayloading of uxtheme.dll is the answer to your "ugly" problem. ;) The apps I'm working on are both clunky and sexy. :) Shog9 wrote: This stuff is my life, in one way or another i use it every day, and even small defects build up huge amounts of irritation over time. And thus you are entitled to bitch and moan every once in a while. If you and others didn't, Microsoft would not release a gem once in a while, but push crap onto us all the time. What really ticks me off is when people bash Microsoft technology when in fact their real gripes are of ideological/political kind. -- Suche gut gebauten Achtzehn bis Dreißigjährigen zum Schlachten. Der Metzgermeister
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Shog9 wrote: Second, i wish it to be known that i do a lot of GUI coding, with clunky Win32 controls and the requirement to remain compatible with older versions of Windows. Delayloading of uxtheme.dll is the answer to your "ugly" problem. ;) The apps I'm working on are both clunky and sexy. :) Shog9 wrote: This stuff is my life, in one way or another i use it every day, and even small defects build up huge amounts of irritation over time. And thus you are entitled to bitch and moan every once in a while. If you and others didn't, Microsoft would not release a gem once in a while, but push crap onto us all the time. What really ticks me off is when people bash Microsoft technology when in fact their real gripes are of ideological/political kind. -- Suche gut gebauten Achtzehn bis Dreißigjährigen zum Schlachten. Der Metzgermeister
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: What really ticks me off is when people bash Microsoft technology when in fact their real gripes are of ideological/political kind. Yep, exactly... - Anders ShotKeeper, my Photo Album / Organizer Application[^]
My Photos[^] -
This place is starting to sound like /. when people speak about MS. Why is that? I mean, I can understand it when all the posters are some Linux people that hates everything not open source, and especially when it's from MS. But here on CP? I thought most of us were developing for MS technologies, so I guess a lot of people only does that as there is no money in developing for Linux, or because the dev-tools sucks. I work with Windows as I think it's a great OS (and I can get money for doing it ;) ) I think it's sad to see. I think it started when John Simmons started using Linux a few years ago, and then Lauren joined too, and then it slowly became legitimate, on CP, to hate MS :sigh: - Anders ShotKeeper, my Photo Album / Organizer Application[^]
My Photos[^]I work with MS technologies for a living. SQL Server, .NET, MSMQ, Visual Studio, 2003 Server, etc. I like their products overall, but, there is room for improvement. At home my desktops are Windows, but my servers are Linux boxen. I don't like the company. I don't like their filthy tactics. MS is a convicted monopolist. This is not my opinion. THEY ARE A CONVICTED MONOPOLIST. They don't have to use dirty tactics to be a sucessful company. And that is my beef. As for your statement "there is no money in developing for Linux", I think you need to do some more research that isn't paid for by MS.
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I work with MS technologies for a living. SQL Server, .NET, MSMQ, Visual Studio, 2003 Server, etc. I like their products overall, but, there is room for improvement. At home my desktops are Windows, but my servers are Linux boxen. I don't like the company. I don't like their filthy tactics. MS is a convicted monopolist. This is not my opinion. THEY ARE A CONVICTED MONOPOLIST. They don't have to use dirty tactics to be a sucessful company. And that is my beef. As for your statement "there is no money in developing for Linux", I think you need to do some more research that isn't paid for by MS.
I don't see why if Microsoft added Internet Explorer to their base Operating System, convicts them as monopolists. If they didn't, exactly how would you get Netscape or Firefox? They are only available on their websites, so how exactly will you browse to their sites and get the software that need? The fact the Microsoft wants to write a COMPLETE operating system, allowing users to browse the web, burn cds and unzip zip files shows that Microsoft is trying to create a good product. Just as all development companies are. If it makes it easier for the user to use the operating system out of the box, then thats a good thing and I don't think MS should be punished for it. If there are browsers out there that are better than IE, then users will get them and use them. If there is CD burning software better that WinXP's, people will use them. If there's one thing I've learned, it's that life is one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead. - Homer Simpson
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This place is starting to sound like /. when people speak about MS. Why is that? I mean, I can understand it when all the posters are some Linux people that hates everything not open source, and especially when it's from MS. But here on CP? I thought most of us were developing for MS technologies, so I guess a lot of people only does that as there is no money in developing for Linux, or because the dev-tools sucks. I work with Windows as I think it's a great OS (and I can get money for doing it ;) ) I think it's sad to see. I think it started when John Simmons started using Linux a few years ago, and then Lauren joined too, and then it slowly became legitimate, on CP, to hate MS :sigh: - Anders ShotKeeper, my Photo Album / Organizer Application[^]
My Photos[^]I think you make some great points,Anders. As someone that has been a member of CP for a couple of years now I have seen this slow shift to MS bashing for the simple sake of bashing occur with more and more frequency over that time. For proof in the pudding that this shift has taken hold just look at the rating of Anders post. Why on earth would anyone rate an article pointing out a rise in MS bashing here with anything less than a 5 on a site dedicated to MS technologies? Unless the person who gave the low rating is a myopic baffoon and a blathering idiot who can find no other use for their knowledge than to bait and tuant those who see life differently than themself it is difficult to comprehend that person's tehcno-bigotry. I suggest that anyone who is that dyed-in-the-wool anti-MS might find greener, and, *gasp*, more productive pastures on other forums instead of wasting their and our time whizzing in our cornflakes here. Best, Jerry
Contrary to the cliche, genuinely nice guys most often finish first or very near it.--Malcolm Forbes
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Shog9 wrote: Second, i wish it to be known that i do a lot of GUI coding, with clunky Win32 controls and the requirement to remain compatible with older versions of Windows. Delayloading of uxtheme.dll is the answer to your "ugly" problem. ;) The apps I'm working on are both clunky and sexy. :) Shog9 wrote: This stuff is my life, in one way or another i use it every day, and even small defects build up huge amounts of irritation over time. And thus you are entitled to bitch and moan every once in a while. If you and others didn't, Microsoft would not release a gem once in a while, but push crap onto us all the time. What really ticks me off is when people bash Microsoft technology when in fact their real gripes are of ideological/political kind. -- Suche gut gebauten Achtzehn bis Dreißigjährigen zum Schlachten. Der Metzgermeister
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: What really ticks me off is when people bash Microsoft technology when in fact their real gripes are of ideological/political kind. Exactly and 100% on point!!
Contrary to the cliche, genuinely nice guys most often finish first or very near it.--Malcolm Forbes
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I don't see why if Microsoft added Internet Explorer to their base Operating System, convicts them as monopolists. If they didn't, exactly how would you get Netscape or Firefox? They are only available on their websites, so how exactly will you browse to their sites and get the software that need? The fact the Microsoft wants to write a COMPLETE operating system, allowing users to browse the web, burn cds and unzip zip files shows that Microsoft is trying to create a good product. Just as all development companies are. If it makes it easier for the user to use the operating system out of the box, then thats a good thing and I don't think MS should be punished for it. If there are browsers out there that are better than IE, then users will get them and use them. If there is CD burning software better that WinXP's, people will use them. If there's one thing I've learned, it's that life is one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead. - Homer Simpson
True, but average Joe doesn't understand the difference and can't be bothered to get a better one (especially if they have to pay extra) if what they have works. This is what kills other companies. I'm sure someone will come up with Firefox even if Microsoft didn't add IE to Windows. And a world without IE is a better world to me. Note: this message is written while using IE 6.0 ;P
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here here. I can honestly say that I've spent more time studying DDE, OLE, COM and DCOM than I ever did implementing them. I just couldn't be bothered with SOAP. I'd seriously advise looking into .NET though as it's not just specific flash in the pan technology with the language support it's going to stick around and I strongly suspect that in a few years time it's going to be a kind of MFC situation where it's possible to do things without using it but it takes so much time and effort that in the long run you'll end up wishing you'd used it. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "They say there are strangers who threaten us, In our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness too dangerous In our theaters and bookstore shelves. That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves." Rush
I think we have Sun to thank for .NET and C#, the best developer tools Microsoft has ever developed. We could also thank Borland (where Anders Hejlsberg developed Delphi, which, along with C++ was probably the main inspiration for the C# (Java's JVM was, of course, the "inspiration" for the CLR)). We can also congratulate Microsoft for having the sense, determination and ability to create the whole thing. While COM was a load of crap with a huge learning curve .NET is quite nice. While not entirely without warts, it is much a more clean, simple and powerful set of technologies. I think it is the best thing Microsoft has done (including OSes, word processors, spreadsheets). Of course, I'm biased toward developer tools. COM always had a bad smell to me. Too complicated, too painful. I had to learn it, but I never developed a liking for it. Even though it was useful and necessary, it seems to me the implementation was horrendously messy and badly done. I think they deserved a bit of legitimate bashing in many cases (like the 30 overloads of Graphics.DrawImage(), or the 7 parameters and misnaming of CreateFile(), etc.) on technical issues and it goes without saying that they deserve chastising for their business practices. Matt Gerrans
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I've been programming under windows since the 3.1 days, and frankly I'm unimpressed with what MS has accomplished over the past 15 years. I still make my living programming under Windows, but after getting repeatedly burned trying to use the latest and greatest thing they are pushing (DDE, COM, DCOM, SOAP, etc) I think I'll pass on .Net until the dust clears. MS has always been more focused on marketing than technology and the effects of this are really beginning to show.
You are 1000% correct in your analysis. In the development tools category, since MSC 5.0, they have added a C++ support, simple code generator, autocomplete, MFC and that's about it... onwards and upwards...
