The Desire to learn
-
>>Crap, crap crap. Proven how ? Quantified how ? Studies paid for by who ? Bollocks.<< See my comments above in my previous answer to you in this thread. >>LOOKS more modern ? You mean the name, or the end result ?<< I mean language features in C# and features in .NET Framework. For example Exception mechanism for error handling, code security features, support for writing components, support for multi-thread programming, all this is part of language or part of framework from beginning. I think this native support of this proved features made programming language/programming environment more modern. >>only because M$ have the money and we have fast enough machines to make it so<< If Java or .NET, or say web services application architecture, do not give us some additional value that it is not present in actually used systems, then they do not have chance on market in long term (please note, I say 'in long term'). >>You know what ? I agree. If I could be as productive in C and get a speed/performance increase, I'd do it. I do it now when I choose not to use MFC if I don't need it, for example. I'm not saying C++ *forever*, I'm saying that it's stupid to abandon it *now* just because there's a trendy new language on the block.<< 100% agree. But as I wrote in my case I get much better productivity (and speed - in my ASP web apps - too!) using C#/.NET in my projects. SlavoF "I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand." --Confucius
At risk of repeating what has been said: Slavo Furman wrote: Exception mechanism for error hand You honestly didn't know C++ does this ? Slavo Furman wrote: support for writing components Ever hear of COM ? Or CORBA ? Slavo Furman wrote: support for multi-thread programming Multi threading is going to be part of the next C++ standard. I think this is a *bad* thing. Every OS should be free to impliment multi threading in the way that best suits it's environment. Slavo Furman wrote: think this native support of this proved features made programming language/programming environment more modern. Of COURSE it does, C# IS more modern, by aeons in computer terms. Does it really matter though if it was there 'from the beginning' ? Doesn't the extensibility of C++ to include *all* these things show that it was a well designed language and that this has something to do with it's longevity ? Slavo Furman wrote: If Java or .NET, or say web services application architecture, do not give us some additional value that it is not present in actually used systems, then they do not have chance on market in long term (please note, I say 'in long term'). IF all tme M$ lackeys run to .Net ismply because of naked fear that anything M$ does will succeed and they will be left behind, then won't C#/.Net survive the way so many M$ product do ? By being mediocre and ubiquitous. The other biggie is that C# is no good if you want to write a cross platform app at this point. Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
-
I've been writing C++ code for almost 10 years, and while there's still something I can learn about C++, I feel C# has great potentials also for us, C++ guys. Take for example memory management. I once developed a DCOM server that was supposed to be up 24 hours a day. Most debugging time I spent on synchonisation and memory management issues. Of course, with C# I can't demand to delete the object _now_, but I'll get used to it, sure! There are many things in C++ that developer must simply learn, for example, making destructors virtual, implementing copy constructors, assignment operators etc. Whenever I declare a new class, first thing I do is to provide these functions. I stopped thinking if I really need to overload copy constructor - perhaps now I don't, but later class will be revised and lack of copy constructor will put its objects into trouble. IMO C++ requires too much of my time on watching carefully language-specific details. I'd rather use my creativity on more productive topics. One other aspect of C++ (and "C"): the code semantics can be fully controlled with macros. Take a look at ATL. Recently my new co-worker wanted to make a few changes in our old components. She had expirience with C++, and components were written in ATL. After spending two days on trying to understand how things work, she suggested that it'd be more efficient if the guy who originally wrote the components fixed it. She was right - ATL is not just C++. You can't hire a C++ guru without ATL knowledge to jump on ATL project. C# gives an impression to be more manageable in this respect. Just my 2 copecks. Vagif Abilov COM+/ATL/MFC Developer Oslo, Norway
Vagif Abilov wrote: She was right - ATL is not just C++. You can't hire a C++ guru without ATL knowledge to jump on ATL project. C# gives an impression to be more manageable in this respect. You're saying that C# is not flexible enough for Microsoft to build something like ATL on top of it ? Yiu're right of course, it is underpowered in that it lacks templates. I agree that ATL is not just C++, it was my private hell for six months until the pieces started to click into place.... :-) Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
-
>>You're kidding, right ?<< No. It is my year and half experience with C# and .NET. Again, it maybe do not apply for all kinds of apps. If you write some specialized apps then maybe benefits for you are not so big. But, I can say, that for general developmet in enterprise environment (partially Internet/Intranet, partially windows desktop clients, mainly business DB oriented apps, integrated with other enterprise systems) it is big leap in productivity thanks to having one unified environment, one framework of class libs with great networking features, not to saying about great deployment feature, especially no need for registering components, possibility to have various versions of one components deployed side-by-side, and possibility of running windows app from URL. I'm really not kidding. I'm not marketing gyu, I code for living. But I must say, that these are things we really use. And these things work great for us. >>Why would anyone *want* a runtime slowing their code down ?<< Because it is, in general, more easy to write managed code in C# than write unmanaged in C++. If my code is solid and performance of this code is satisfying for my customers and I can do this say in one week in C#, then why write this two weeks in C++ to have better performance. Of course, while program some apps where perfomance is crucial (graphics, scientific calculations, heavily used server controls, real-time apps, ...) then it is better to use C++ to have best performance. If best possible performance will be first criterium on all apps then all apps will be written in assembler no matter how long this takes. >>memory management and garbage collection for people not smart enough to manage their own memory ?<< If one do not use pointers in his/her code then this do not mean that one do not understand how to use it. I think when I do not need to care about releasing memory (no memory leaks, ...) then it is more easy to program, and I can be more productive. >>The reason C++ did not come with garbage collection as standard is that it is easily added, and it slows the language down.<< It is not so easy. Main problem with C++ while implementing Garbage Collection is that C++ do not have single-rooted object hierarchy. In Java or in .NET all objects are inherited from one base class, in C++ there is not such one base clas for all objects. So, Garbage Collection cannot be implemented so efficiently by this fact. SlavoF "I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand." --Confucius
Slavo Furman wrote: If you write some specialized apps then maybe benefits for you are not so big As it happens, the benefits for my type of work is zero. ( heavy graphics, cross platform ) Slavo Furman wrote: Because it is, in general, more easy to write managed code in C# than write unmanaged in C++. If my code is solid and performance of this code is satisfying for my customers and I can do this say in one week in C#, then why write this two weeks in C++ to have better performance. I have heard similar for years about VB - why write the GUI in C++ when VB is faster. Well, I don't think it necessarily is, and more to the point I don't think it does as good a job. At this point, I balk at the thought of telling people my app needs 22 MB of HDD space ( assuming I am right in thinking the CLR takes 19 ). Slavo Furman wrote: If one do not use pointers in his/her code then this do not mean that one do not understand how to use it. I think when I do not need to care about releasing memory (no memory leaks, ...) then it is more easy to program, and I can be more productive. I don't find managing memory to be a hardship. Of course I don't create pointers for the hell of it, but I *do* have to use pointers a fair bit, and I must say it's the least thing on my mind. Slavo Furman wrote: It is not so easy. Main problem with C++ while implementing Garbage Collection is that C++ do not have single-rooted object hierarchy. In Java or in .NET all objects are inherited from one base class, in C++ there is not such one base clas for all objects. So, Garbage Collection cannot be implemented so efficiently by this fact. You're right, of course. I still don't accept that it has no overhead at all. Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
-
Wow - kind of a hot thread. I guess I feel as though I must say something. Although .NET clears away all of the cruft of the preceding decade of Windows development, which will benefit developers and users with a more robust and higher productivity experience - it isn't a matter of "want". Everyone must keep in mind that .NET IS the new Windows API. C# just happens to support it better, currently, than C++. Besides, and some have touched on this a little in this thread, the API is what takes time to learn - the language chosen is almost irrelevant. And since the entire .NET API is designed to be an orthogonal and consistent inheritance model - it will be a lot easier for people to work in than the old COM/ATL/MFC APIs which were all very different. I believe that C++ is a great language for doing meticulous work. In the future, I think MS will improve the way to develop managed C++ applications. But, right now, C# is by far the best choice for developing new Windows hosted applications. Dale Thompson
Dale Thompson wrote: Everyone must keep in mind that .NET IS the new Windows API. C# just happens to support it better, currently, than C++. And this is the problem. M$ are going to *force* C# down our throats because they *can*. This is all a big Bill Gates power trip. Why is C# standardised ? Because Java isn't. Why does C# exist ? Because Microsoft lost their court case with Sun. Dale Thompson wrote: C# is by far the best choice for developing new Windows hosted applications. By Windows hosted do you mean apps for the Windows platform ? Then I strongly disagree. While that may become the case, right now it plainly isn't so. For example, it's a ridiculous choice if your main market is people downloading your product. Who is going to download the CLR ? Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
-
> But as I wrote in my case I get much better productivity > (and speed - in my ASP web apps - too!) using C#/.NET in my > projects. Interesting... I find it hard to believe that using a good quality C#-based ASP object would be faster than a good quality C++-based ASP object. But I guess that would depend greatly on the skill of the developer writing the C++-based ASP object. -=- James.
Well, this was a some kind of side note in parenthesis... But overall performance of our ASP.NET apps is better than performance of our old ASP apps. This is because ASP.NET (C# code) is compiled and ASP code (VBScript with some business layer components written in VB6 - I have no stuff for rewrite all this in C++ ATL) is mainly interpreted. But you are right performance of high quality ATL C++ code, should be, at least in general, better than performance of managed C# code. Although once (C# code is) JITed and cached difference is not so big. SlavoF "I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand." --Confucius
-
No, you're not alone. C# seems mainly pitched at the VB crowd, or people who generally find C++ 'too hard'. I'd much rather learn more about C++ than throw my time into a proprietary language ( C# OR Java ). I am amazed to look at jobnet and see people advertising for folks with experience in C# which would equate to using it since the first public beta. People are hiring coders to work on products using a beta which has substantially changed once already ? The IDE has not been released, what is WRONG with people. Writing something in the latest language will not ensure it is cool, it will ensure only that there is no depth of experience in the language, and more to the point, these are the people who will both find the bugs and deficiences in C# ( M$ have long used their users as beta testers, witness how many service releases we have for any M$ product to fix security holes, bugs, etc ), and also force their customers to install the CLR. Once the first wave goes out, the second will no longer be a problem, most people will have the CLR. I have realised I am ranting again... But I agree - why waste time on C#, when there is so much to learn in C++ ? Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
Years ago, before I gave up hope of ever having a 'real' job again, I saw a multitude of ads requiring 5 years' experience with Windows95. The amazing thing to me was that it had been released only a month before! Who writes these things, and who do they hire? The best liars?
-
Years ago, before I gave up hope of ever having a 'real' job again, I saw a multitude of ads requiring 5 years' experience with Windows95. The amazing thing to me was that it had been released only a month before! Who writes these things, and who do they hire? The best liars?
*grin* I don't know, it's either a test, to find the person honest enough to apply by pointing out that this is impossible, or it's a sign the management are idiots. Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
-
Michael Martin wrote: Us unemployed types will do anything for a carton of beer or bottle of Bundaberg Rum. How's it going for you, anyhow ? You're disillusioning me, you know. We in Tassie always regard Sydney as a golden land where the plum IT jobs are falling off the trees like so much ripe summer fruit.... Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
****Christian Graus wrote: How's it going for you, anyhow ? You're disillusioning me, you know. We in Tassie always regard Sydney as a golden land where the plum IT jobs are falling off the trees like so much ripe summer fruit.... Could be, I'll find out soon enough when my extreme apathy abates. It's the same old problem of inertia and the difficulty of starting something new. Still trying to bang out a resume, this bullshit of selling myself to some unknown and trying to second guess what they want to hear is pissing me off. Need the resume to stand out to get the interview but not be too off the wall that they just throw it in the bin anyway. After 14 years continuous work with fuck all holidays I got to say bludging is feeling OK. Did a couple of weeks factory work to do something physical and not mental. Got to say it was enjoyable in a perverse sort of way, but working with brain dead people for too long would send me psycho. Also hoping that having no job will scare the rest of the household into reality on the whole idea of spending and budgets. Selling up a house and pissing away the left over thousands and then doing it again to two other substantial payments after leaving other jobs is wearing thin. Still have a very large unsecured loan to pay off. Would love to get back into serious development again in a good team but they just don't seem to pay the good money that the consultant jack of all trades shit I was doing, does. Michael Martin Australia mmartin@netspace.net.au "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
-
*grin* I don't know, it's either a test, to find the person honest enough to apply by pointing out that this is impossible, or it's a sign the management are idiots. Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
I vote for the "idiots" option. At TRW we used to copy the job requirements from the resume of the employee we really wanted to have the job, yet HR was never quite able to locate him... HR seems to be an ideal job - there's no need to understand either your internal customer, or the applicants. Thus a brain is an optional appliance. A pity that there are so many qualified candidates, else I'd apply for such a position myself...
-
****Christian Graus wrote: How's it going for you, anyhow ? You're disillusioning me, you know. We in Tassie always regard Sydney as a golden land where the plum IT jobs are falling off the trees like so much ripe summer fruit.... Could be, I'll find out soon enough when my extreme apathy abates. It's the same old problem of inertia and the difficulty of starting something new. Still trying to bang out a resume, this bullshit of selling myself to some unknown and trying to second guess what they want to hear is pissing me off. Need the resume to stand out to get the interview but not be too off the wall that they just throw it in the bin anyway. After 14 years continuous work with fuck all holidays I got to say bludging is feeling OK. Did a couple of weeks factory work to do something physical and not mental. Got to say it was enjoyable in a perverse sort of way, but working with brain dead people for too long would send me psycho. Also hoping that having no job will scare the rest of the household into reality on the whole idea of spending and budgets. Selling up a house and pissing away the left over thousands and then doing it again to two other substantial payments after leaving other jobs is wearing thin. Still have a very large unsecured loan to pay off. Would love to get back into serious development again in a good team but they just don't seem to pay the good money that the consultant jack of all trades shit I was doing, does. Michael Martin Australia mmartin@netspace.net.au "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
Michael Martin wrote: Still trying to bang out a resume, this bullshit of selling myself to some unknown and trying to second guess what they want to hear is pissing me off. Actually since I got into programming I do the reverse - I put only stuff I feel I know well enough to answer any questions *well* with the intention of mentioning stuff I've only played with in the interview, so they don't have it in writing !!!! Michael Martin wrote: Did a couple of weeks factory work to do something physical and not mental. Got to say it was enjoyable in a perverse sort of way, but working with brain dead people for too long would send me psycho. I know what you mean on both fronts. It can be good to do some physical work, but when everyone around you watches Neigbours and 'reads' People magazine ( for people in the US, People here is pr0n, the folks who print it had to call it 'Who' when they started here ), you have to wonder how anyone seriously believes in evolution as a one way street. Michael Martin wrote: Also hoping that having no job will scare the rest of the household into reality on the whole idea of spending and budgets. So your wife is different to every other woman alive ? I've tried telling myself that from time to time as well, to no avail. Michael Martin wrote: Would love to get back into serious development again in a good team but they just don't seem to pay the good money that the consultant jack of all trades sh*t I was doing, does. Have you looked at www.jobnet.com.au ? That's where we often see dev jobs that pay over $100k in Sydney. Christian After all, there's nothing wrong with an elite as long as I'm allowed to be part of it!! - Mike Burston Oct 23, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now