Contracting an international developer
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Instead of stressing on say, nationally or price, why not focus on skill level? What's the point of hiring someone abroad or domestic for that matter for less money if they can't do the job right the first time? Saving a buck now can cost more down the road. Also, you have to spend money to make money in the business world. Unless you embrace this concept, don't expect to be the next Bill Gates. Jeremy Falcon
The reason I asked was myself an a friend run a business. It is currently a very small business and we both have full time jobs. We can't afford very much, and certainly not the $30+/hr full time rates of hiring someone normally. This is why we are investigating our options. The reason I suggested "India" is because I have seen a lot in the news lately that India is a good place to look for outsourcing because the rates over there are generally much better than Australia/USA and also because they have a lot of skilled professionals. And please let me re-emphasize the fact that I am merely investigating our options. I just want to know what is available, and what sort of pricing is available. And no I'm not advertising a job right now. I'm just asking people what they know about it. NATHAN RIDLEY Web Application Developer email: nathan @ netlab.com.au [remove the spaces before and after the @ symbol]
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Hmm.... Well, I am not Indian (I'm in Australia), but I do a fair bit of contract work for people in the USA, and around the world. The way I get most of my work is that people read my articles on CP, or see me answering questions, and they write and ask me if I'm interested in doing some work. So I would suggest that the best way to go about it is to go into the article section of CP, read some articles on stuff that seems similar to what you want to get done, then contact some people and see what you come up with. The fact that you specify 'Indian' makes me think you're looking for someone cheap more than anything, but I'd recommend that you remain open both to the fact that people in other countries are equally able to compete on price, and that low price is not at all adequate compensation for poor code. ( No, I'm not suggesting that Indian programmers suck, I'm suggesting if you do what I'm suggesting, you get to do some code review before even approaching anyone, regardless of location ). Or you could send me an email :-) Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
I agree with you on the code review. I would not pay any developer to work for me if I had not seen what he/she can do in advance, plus I would be asking them a bunch of questions about their coding style, etc, just to get a feel for what kind of programmer they are. Really I was just trying to find out about the offshore contracting option in general. I thought some people on here may have had some experiences in that area. NATHAN RIDLEY Web Application Developer email: nathan @ netlab.com.au [remove the spaces before and after the @ symbol]
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Nathan Ridley wrote: and we've decided it may be beneficial to contract an Indian programmer on a semi-ongoing basis to do the work for us. I'm curious why an Indian programmer. Or are you just looking to generally outsource to a cheaper labour market. I'm sure posting on the Jobs[^] board might help you locate somebody. After all, we are a big world-wide community here at CP. Michael CP Blog [^]
That would be somewhat premature seeing as right now I'm just researching my options. I'm really just curious to know what is available considering that I have to personally fund this out of my own salaried pocket if I go ahead with it. NATHAN RIDLEY Web Application Developer email: nathan @ netlab.com.au [remove the spaces before and after the @ symbol]
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I agree with you on the code review. I would not pay any developer to work for me if I had not seen what he/she can do in advance, plus I would be asking them a bunch of questions about their coding style, etc, just to get a feel for what kind of programmer they are. Really I was just trying to find out about the offshore contracting option in general. I thought some people on here may have had some experiences in that area. NATHAN RIDLEY Web Application Developer email: nathan @ netlab.com.au [remove the spaces before and after the @ symbol]
Sure. I initially assumed you were in the USA. I've never hired anyone offshore, but having been hired, it seems to work well. As I said, CP definately gives you a good chance to check some folks out and then make contact with people you believe you could work with. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
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Hi, I am doing a bit of investigating at the moment as we have some work we need to get done on a budget soon, and we've decided it may be beneficial to contract an Indian (or other less expensive nationality) programmer on a semi-ongoing basis to do the work for us. My questions are, what kind of money am I likely looking at, and what would be the best way to go about locating somebody decent who isn't too expensive? Also, do you have any recommendations as to where to look/start? FYI, we basically need to develop a bunch of business objects with C#/DotNet that perform a variety of tasks. --------------- UPDATE: To anyone reading this, please take note that I am simply researching my options. I'm not advertising a job, and I have no racial or prejudicial motivations here. I am merely shopping around for cost effective solutions, and getting a start on a couple of things with an offshore developer (cheaper due to lower cost of living) seems like a good kickstart until I can afford to hire someone local. --------------- NATHAN RIDLEY Web Application Developer email: nathan @ netlab.com.au [remove the spaces before and after the @ symbol]
I know I'll get flamed for this, but this kind of post just raises my hackles. What's the problem with hiring someone in your own country?!?!? To save yourself a buck? Let's see... * The cost of communicating with someone where English isn't their native language * The cost of communicating across significant time zones * The cost of having to explain every little design nuance to such detail that you could have just coded it yourself * The cost of not having someone that cares about the product and won't give you valuable feedback because they are just "doing the job" * The cost of looking at the resulting work and realizing it's not quite up to snuff I realize I've loaded this response with a lot of emotion, but there are a lot of hidden costs to outsourcing to what essentially is a programmer sweat shop. Now maybe they're not all like that, but from what people have told me of their experiences and from what I've seen regarding the quality of work and the communication issues, it's a lot more expensive. Why not consider hiring a college student or someone that is willing to do some grunt work for fewer bucks, some work experience, and a letter of recommendation? Outsourcing programming is inevitable, global economy yadda yadda yadda, but that doesn't mean you have to help it along! :mad: Marc MyXaml Advanced Unit Testing
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I agree with you on the code review. I would not pay any developer to work for me if I had not seen what he/she can do in advance, plus I would be asking them a bunch of questions about their coding style, etc, just to get a feel for what kind of programmer they are. Really I was just trying to find out about the offshore contracting option in general. I thought some people on here may have had some experiences in that area. NATHAN RIDLEY Web Application Developer email: nathan @ netlab.com.au [remove the spaces before and after the @ symbol]
Nathan Ridley wrote: I thought some people on here may have had some experiences in that area. Yes, 99.9% of us don't like it. Some of us have lost jobs as a result of outsourcing. Marc MyXaml Advanced Unit Testing
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Hi, I am doing a bit of investigating at the moment as we have some work we need to get done on a budget soon, and we've decided it may be beneficial to contract an Indian (or other less expensive nationality) programmer on a semi-ongoing basis to do the work for us. My questions are, what kind of money am I likely looking at, and what would be the best way to go about locating somebody decent who isn't too expensive? Also, do you have any recommendations as to where to look/start? FYI, we basically need to develop a bunch of business objects with C#/DotNet that perform a variety of tasks. --------------- UPDATE: To anyone reading this, please take note that I am simply researching my options. I'm not advertising a job, and I have no racial or prejudicial motivations here. I am merely shopping around for cost effective solutions, and getting a start on a couple of things with an offshore developer (cheaper due to lower cost of living) seems like a good kickstart until I can afford to hire someone local. --------------- NATHAN RIDLEY Web Application Developer email: nathan @ netlab.com.au [remove the spaces before and after the @ symbol]
Try here http://www.guru.com/[^]
Yesterday is history, Tomorrow is a mystery. Today is a gift -that's why it's called the present
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I know I'll get flamed for this, but this kind of post just raises my hackles. What's the problem with hiring someone in your own country?!?!? To save yourself a buck? Let's see... * The cost of communicating with someone where English isn't their native language * The cost of communicating across significant time zones * The cost of having to explain every little design nuance to such detail that you could have just coded it yourself * The cost of not having someone that cares about the product and won't give you valuable feedback because they are just "doing the job" * The cost of looking at the resulting work and realizing it's not quite up to snuff I realize I've loaded this response with a lot of emotion, but there are a lot of hidden costs to outsourcing to what essentially is a programmer sweat shop. Now maybe they're not all like that, but from what people have told me of their experiences and from what I've seen regarding the quality of work and the communication issues, it's a lot more expensive. Why not consider hiring a college student or someone that is willing to do some grunt work for fewer bucks, some work experience, and a letter of recommendation? Outsourcing programming is inevitable, global economy yadda yadda yadda, but that doesn't mean you have to help it along! :mad: Marc MyXaml Advanced Unit Testing
Marc Clifton wrote: The cost of communicating with someone where English isn't their native language This is definitely true of Far East (China mainy) contractors without English as a native tongue. It's terrible communicating with them - even written work is confusing and takes alot of sorting out. I think there are major difference between Chinese and English languages that make translating a doubly difficult task.
Being lectured by the president on fiscal responsibility is a little bit like Tony Soprano talking to me about law and order in this country. John Kerry
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Hi, I am doing a bit of investigating at the moment as we have some work we need to get done on a budget soon, and we've decided it may be beneficial to contract an Indian (or other less expensive nationality) programmer on a semi-ongoing basis to do the work for us. My questions are, what kind of money am I likely looking at, and what would be the best way to go about locating somebody decent who isn't too expensive? Also, do you have any recommendations as to where to look/start? FYI, we basically need to develop a bunch of business objects with C#/DotNet that perform a variety of tasks. --------------- UPDATE: To anyone reading this, please take note that I am simply researching my options. I'm not advertising a job, and I have no racial or prejudicial motivations here. I am merely shopping around for cost effective solutions, and getting a start on a couple of things with an offshore developer (cheaper due to lower cost of living) seems like a good kickstart until I can afford to hire someone local. --------------- NATHAN RIDLEY Web Application Developer email: nathan @ netlab.com.au [remove the spaces before and after the @ symbol]
I have had good success at www.rentacoder.com. You post your specs and ask for bids, anywhere from 1 to 30 programmers respond. You can look at coder biographies and prior evaluations before making your choice. Most foreigners on rentacoder have excellent writing skills in English. Preferred form of communication is e-mail (through rentacoder) to preserve your rights. Your money is escrowed and not paid until you accept the code. In case of disputes, a clear record of detailed specifications exists and someone from rentacoder steps in to srbitrate. I have in fact given links to relevant Codeproject articles and asked for specific modifications. I have paid as little as $100 at rentacoder. There are projects that are as high as $12,000 and simple ones that are bid for $10. You could throw in a bid request for one business bject, evaluate the performance of the coder you select and, if he/she is good, continue with the same coder by sole sourcing from that point. Good luck. PS. Quite a few Indian companies and individuals also bid at rentacoder.
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Hi, I am doing a bit of investigating at the moment as we have some work we need to get done on a budget soon, and we've decided it may be beneficial to contract an Indian (or other less expensive nationality) programmer on a semi-ongoing basis to do the work for us. My questions are, what kind of money am I likely looking at, and what would be the best way to go about locating somebody decent who isn't too expensive? Also, do you have any recommendations as to where to look/start? FYI, we basically need to develop a bunch of business objects with C#/DotNet that perform a variety of tasks. --------------- UPDATE: To anyone reading this, please take note that I am simply researching my options. I'm not advertising a job, and I have no racial or prejudicial motivations here. I am merely shopping around for cost effective solutions, and getting a start on a couple of things with an offshore developer (cheaper due to lower cost of living) seems like a good kickstart until I can afford to hire someone local. --------------- NATHAN RIDLEY Web Application Developer email: nathan @ netlab.com.au [remove the spaces before and after the @ symbol]
Hello Nathan There are lots of Indian job-sites where you can search for candidates - I am not sure if you can do that for free though, maybe they'll expect employers to register for a small fee. One such job site for India-based candidates is www.naukri.com[^]. There are going to be 1000s of candidates who'd seemingly fit your job requirements, but only about 30% of them would be quality programmers. So you'll have to do some thorough screening before selecting candidates. Another issue to consider is that most parts of India do not have any means of affordable decent bandwidth. So if the type of job you are planning to outsource requires high speed net access, you can forget 80-90% of Indian cities and you'll have to look at the metro cities. Also, don't blindly take an Indian just because his wages are low - though there are lots of skilled guys here, there are more unskilled people here too - same as in any other part of the world. So make sure you choose the right person. You can get very good people for about $10/hour, perhaps even lesser. Good luck in your hunt. Regards Nish
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
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Hi, I am doing a bit of investigating at the moment as we have some work we need to get done on a budget soon, and we've decided it may be beneficial to contract an Indian (or other less expensive nationality) programmer on a semi-ongoing basis to do the work for us. My questions are, what kind of money am I likely looking at, and what would be the best way to go about locating somebody decent who isn't too expensive? Also, do you have any recommendations as to where to look/start? FYI, we basically need to develop a bunch of business objects with C#/DotNet that perform a variety of tasks. --------------- UPDATE: To anyone reading this, please take note that I am simply researching my options. I'm not advertising a job, and I have no racial or prejudicial motivations here. I am merely shopping around for cost effective solutions, and getting a start on a couple of things with an offshore developer (cheaper due to lower cost of living) seems like a good kickstart until I can afford to hire someone local. --------------- NATHAN RIDLEY Web Application Developer email: nathan @ netlab.com.au [remove the spaces before and after the @ symbol]
Nathan Ridley wrote: we've decided it may be beneficial to contract an Indian (or other less expensive nationality) I'm sure you didn't intend it this way, but this statement comes across as extremely racist and demeaning to Indians. It implies that Indians and other "lesser mortals" are clearly relegated to the status of second class citizens, suitable only for low paying work. That, of course, infers that either a) they're substandard as a nationality and therefore not worth much, or b) they're too stupid to parlay their talents into a decent wage. And of course, this would naturally also apply to all those "other less expensive nationality" type folks. It doesn't take much imagination to see how this could be somewhat insulting to the very people you'd like to help you. Given that this is an international community (with many highly paid Indian programmers, I might add), you're not going to get anywhere near the kind of support you could from CP folks by starting off in this fashion. I point this out in the spirit of helpfulness. If you take the time to consider it, improving your communications and people skills will yield you and your friends tremendous benefits in all aspects of your business. Most programmers get caught up in the coding, but how you interact with people is far, far more important to the success of your projects. I wish you much success with your business. And remember - all people have feelings. Even programmers. Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World
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I know I'll get flamed for this, but this kind of post just raises my hackles. What's the problem with hiring someone in your own country?!?!? To save yourself a buck? Let's see... * The cost of communicating with someone where English isn't their native language * The cost of communicating across significant time zones * The cost of having to explain every little design nuance to such detail that you could have just coded it yourself * The cost of not having someone that cares about the product and won't give you valuable feedback because they are just "doing the job" * The cost of looking at the resulting work and realizing it's not quite up to snuff I realize I've loaded this response with a lot of emotion, but there are a lot of hidden costs to outsourcing to what essentially is a programmer sweat shop. Now maybe they're not all like that, but from what people have told me of their experiences and from what I've seen regarding the quality of work and the communication issues, it's a lot more expensive. Why not consider hiring a college student or someone that is willing to do some grunt work for fewer bucks, some work experience, and a letter of recommendation? Outsourcing programming is inevitable, global economy yadda yadda yadda, but that doesn't mean you have to help it along! :mad: Marc MyXaml Advanced Unit Testing
Hey Marc I am not pushing outsourcing and I am aware of the fact that lots of outsourced jobs actually end up getting done in not-so-good software places in India. But for an equally skilled candidate (just assume you have an US candidate and an Indian candidate of the very same skillset, intellect, communication skill etc), the Indian candidate would only ask for about half what the US candidate would demand. I know a guy who used to work for MS in Redmond and who later asked for a transfer to MS, India - since he wanted to be near his family. After the transfer to India, his salary was changed to around 25% of what they paid him in the US. It was not because he was demoted in any way, just that cost-levels in India are rather low - which puzzles me. I'd have thought that for a 3rd world country, everything should be more expensive. BTW I would like to mention that for a geek, cost of living is actually higher in India - stuff like laptops, cell phones, PDAs etc are all more expensive here and given the lower wage levels, most geeks can forget indulging in buying all the cool gadgets they'd otherwise have wanted to buy. Nish
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
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Hey Marc I am not pushing outsourcing and I am aware of the fact that lots of outsourced jobs actually end up getting done in not-so-good software places in India. But for an equally skilled candidate (just assume you have an US candidate and an Indian candidate of the very same skillset, intellect, communication skill etc), the Indian candidate would only ask for about half what the US candidate would demand. I know a guy who used to work for MS in Redmond and who later asked for a transfer to MS, India - since he wanted to be near his family. After the transfer to India, his salary was changed to around 25% of what they paid him in the US. It was not because he was demoted in any way, just that cost-levels in India are rather low - which puzzles me. I'd have thought that for a 3rd world country, everything should be more expensive. BTW I would like to mention that for a geek, cost of living is actually higher in India - stuff like laptops, cell phones, PDAs etc are all more expensive here and given the lower wage levels, most geeks can forget indulging in buying all the cool gadgets they'd otherwise have wanted to buy. Nish
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
Nishant S wrote: BTW I would like to mention that for a geek, cost of living is actually higher in India - stuff like laptops, cell phones, PDAs etc are all more expensive here Yeah, but all your software is free ;) Cheers, Tom Archer "Use what talents you possess. The woods would be very silent if no birds sang there except those that sang best." - William Blake * Inside C# -Second Edition * Visual C++.NET Bible * Extending MFC Applications with the .NET Framework
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Nathan Ridley wrote: I thought some people on here may have had some experiences in that area. Yes, 99.9% of us don't like it. Some of us have lost jobs as a result of outsourcing. Marc MyXaml Advanced Unit Testing
I totally sympathise. I would never sack anyone with the intent to move development offshore. My intent is more to get a bit of cheap work done to start with, before moving to a totally in-house non-offshore setup once that becomes an option. NATHAN RIDLEY Web Application Developer email: nathan @ netlab.com.au [remove the spaces before and after the @ symbol]
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I know I'll get flamed for this, but this kind of post just raises my hackles. What's the problem with hiring someone in your own country?!?!? To save yourself a buck? Let's see... * The cost of communicating with someone where English isn't their native language * The cost of communicating across significant time zones * The cost of having to explain every little design nuance to such detail that you could have just coded it yourself * The cost of not having someone that cares about the product and won't give you valuable feedback because they are just "doing the job" * The cost of looking at the resulting work and realizing it's not quite up to snuff I realize I've loaded this response with a lot of emotion, but there are a lot of hidden costs to outsourcing to what essentially is a programmer sweat shop. Now maybe they're not all like that, but from what people have told me of their experiences and from what I've seen regarding the quality of work and the communication issues, it's a lot more expensive. Why not consider hiring a college student or someone that is willing to do some grunt work for fewer bucks, some work experience, and a letter of recommendation? Outsourcing programming is inevitable, global economy yadda yadda yadda, but that doesn't mean you have to help it along! :mad: Marc MyXaml Advanced Unit Testing
Thanks for the feedback. I understand your position, and really, I was just trying to find out what's involved, pro's, cons, etc. I didn't really expect this kind of reaction. Actually the only reason I was even looking at this to see if it were a viable option, was because I have to pay for some stuff to be done out of my own pocket, and it seemed like possibly an idea to fill in the gap for the moment until I'm in a position to pay someone local (which I'd prefer to be able to do anyway) at local rates. NATHAN RIDLEY Web Application Developer email: nathan @ netlab.com.au [remove the spaces before and after the @ symbol]
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I have had good success at www.rentacoder.com. You post your specs and ask for bids, anywhere from 1 to 30 programmers respond. You can look at coder biographies and prior evaluations before making your choice. Most foreigners on rentacoder have excellent writing skills in English. Preferred form of communication is e-mail (through rentacoder) to preserve your rights. Your money is escrowed and not paid until you accept the code. In case of disputes, a clear record of detailed specifications exists and someone from rentacoder steps in to srbitrate. I have in fact given links to relevant Codeproject articles and asked for specific modifications. I have paid as little as $100 at rentacoder. There are projects that are as high as $12,000 and simple ones that are bid for $10. You could throw in a bid request for one business bject, evaluate the performance of the coder you select and, if he/she is good, continue with the same coder by sole sourcing from that point. Good luck. PS. Quite a few Indian companies and individuals also bid at rentacoder.
Thanks, I've checked it out and it looks like it might be a pretty good option! NATHAN RIDLEY Web Application Developer email: nathan @ netlab.com.au [remove the spaces before and after the @ symbol]
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Hello Nathan There are lots of Indian job-sites where you can search for candidates - I am not sure if you can do that for free though, maybe they'll expect employers to register for a small fee. One such job site for India-based candidates is www.naukri.com[^]. There are going to be 1000s of candidates who'd seemingly fit your job requirements, but only about 30% of them would be quality programmers. So you'll have to do some thorough screening before selecting candidates. Another issue to consider is that most parts of India do not have any means of affordable decent bandwidth. So if the type of job you are planning to outsource requires high speed net access, you can forget 80-90% of Indian cities and you'll have to look at the metro cities. Also, don't blindly take an Indian just because his wages are low - though there are lots of skilled guys here, there are more unskilled people here too - same as in any other part of the world. So make sure you choose the right person. You can get very good people for about $10/hour, perhaps even lesser. Good luck in your hunt. Regards Nish
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
Thanks Nish, I'll take your advice on board. NATHAN RIDLEY Web Application Developer email: nathan @ netlab.com.au [remove the spaces before and after the @ symbol]
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Try here http://www.guru.com/[^]
Yesterday is history, Tomorrow is a mystery. Today is a gift -that's why it's called the present
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter".Thanks, I'll check it out. NATHAN RIDLEY Web Application Developer email: nathan @ netlab.com.au [remove the spaces before and after the @ symbol]
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Nathan Ridley wrote: we've decided it may be beneficial to contract an Indian (or other less expensive nationality) I'm sure you didn't intend it this way, but this statement comes across as extremely racist and demeaning to Indians. It implies that Indians and other "lesser mortals" are clearly relegated to the status of second class citizens, suitable only for low paying work. That, of course, infers that either a) they're substandard as a nationality and therefore not worth much, or b) they're too stupid to parlay their talents into a decent wage. And of course, this would naturally also apply to all those "other less expensive nationality" type folks. It doesn't take much imagination to see how this could be somewhat insulting to the very people you'd like to help you. Given that this is an international community (with many highly paid Indian programmers, I might add), you're not going to get anywhere near the kind of support you could from CP folks by starting off in this fashion. I point this out in the spirit of helpfulness. If you take the time to consider it, improving your communications and people skills will yield you and your friends tremendous benefits in all aspects of your business. Most programmers get caught up in the coding, but how you interact with people is far, far more important to the success of your projects. I wish you much success with your business. And remember - all people have feelings. Even programmers. Christopher Duncan Today's Corporate Battle Tactic Unite the Tribes: Ending Turf Wars for Career and Business Success The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World
I can understand your position, but I think it clearly means that the cost of living in some other nations is significantly less than countries like the USA and Australia. I can't see how anyone could misconstrue what I was trying to say. At the moment, India is a popular country for offshoring due to this fact. Obviously I'm not intending anything racial in this respect. NATHAN RIDLEY Web Application Developer email: nathan @ netlab.com.au [remove the spaces before and after the @ symbol]
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Hey Marc I am not pushing outsourcing and I am aware of the fact that lots of outsourced jobs actually end up getting done in not-so-good software places in India. But for an equally skilled candidate (just assume you have an US candidate and an Indian candidate of the very same skillset, intellect, communication skill etc), the Indian candidate would only ask for about half what the US candidate would demand. I know a guy who used to work for MS in Redmond and who later asked for a transfer to MS, India - since he wanted to be near his family. After the transfer to India, his salary was changed to around 25% of what they paid him in the US. It was not because he was demoted in any way, just that cost-levels in India are rather low - which puzzles me. I'd have thought that for a 3rd world country, everything should be more expensive. BTW I would like to mention that for a geek, cost of living is actually higher in India - stuff like laptops, cell phones, PDAs etc are all more expensive here and given the lower wage levels, most geeks can forget indulging in buying all the cool gadgets they'd otherwise have wanted to buy. Nish
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
That is the problem with outsourcing to me. I would not be angry to lose a job to another programmer for equal wage based on the company, but to loose just because of a company's greed, while they go to the lowest bidder, that is not right. Indian developers should make to to get what they can while they can, because they only need to look to the USA for their future. One day $1,000-$2,000 USA per month will be considered way to high and all the jobs will move to people willing to work for only a few hundred per month. And yes, they will have skills also. It is this feeding frenzy of greed that is destroying the market and will continue. They do not believe in a day's pay for a day's work. Even Microsoft with their huge empire, is starting to cut back on the value of their employees. It is nothing more than greed. Rocky <>< www.HintsAndTips.com - Now with "Recommendation" postings www.MyQuickPoll.com - Now with Recent Poll List www.GotTheAnswerToSpam.com - Again :)