Lisp vs C/C++ vs Java
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This is an interesting read: http://www-aig.jpl.nasa.gov/public/home/gat/lisp-study.html[^]. I find it hard to believe that Lisp is a practical alternative to C/C++/Java/C#/whatever for complex applications, but apparently it is.
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
In my engineering school I studied an object oriented Lisp developed there, called "Airelle" ( = "bilberry"). Practically speaking, I prefer much more C++
Fold With Us! "A leader is a man who can adapt principles to circumstances - Georges S. Patton, 1885–1945"
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(Lisp is a (clear, elegant, (readable alternative)) (for system programming. It (contains (simple, yet powerful) language) constructs (that allows (you to (manipulate (data easier (than in other (languages.)))))) After getting used to Lisp, you'll never find code written by anyone else hard to read. Yes, even I am blogging now!
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This is an interesting read: http://www-aig.jpl.nasa.gov/public/home/gat/lisp-study.html[^]. I find it hard to believe that Lisp is a practical alternative to C/C++/Java/C#/whatever for complex applications, but apparently it is.
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
I remember (about 20 years ago) writing an adventure game interpreter. This was for the text-based kind of game where you would type things like
go north take box open boxand so on... The interpreter was written in 8086 assembly language but it processed the game program from files written in a lisp-like (Lost In Stupid Parentheses) language. The clever thing (for the time; this pre-dated C++) was that the lisp-like language was object-oriented and supported inheritance. You could have base classes likethingandactorin your code and derive pretty much everything from them. They could have actions and attributes which could override or extend the base class definitions. I lost the code many moons ago but I often wish I still had it. I used it to create a game for my daughter when she was just able to read and type (a year or so before she started school). Now she's just finishing university (who said computer games couldn't be educational? ;) ).
The opinions expressed in this communication do not necessarily represent those of the author (especially if you find them impolite, discourteous or inflammatory).
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(Lisp is a (clear, elegant, (readable alternative)) (for system programming. It (contains (simple, yet powerful) language) constructs (that allows (you to (manipulate (data easier (than in other (languages.)))))) After getting used to Lisp, you'll never find code written by anyone else hard to read. Yes, even I am blogging now!
5 also. I have not programed in Lisp, but when raw data manipulation was the focus, I have been impressed by those around me. These are all tools to get a job done. I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
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(Lisp is a (clear, elegant, (readable alternative)) (for system programming. It (contains (simple, yet powerful) language) constructs (that allows (you to (manipulate (data easier (than in other (languages.)))))) After getting used to Lisp, you'll never find code written by anyone else hard to read. Yes, even I am blogging now!
If my memory serves me right, I think you meant to write:
(Lisp is a (clear, elegant, (and readable) alternative) ...
:) /ravi My new year's resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | Freeware | Music ravib@ravib.com
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I remember (about 20 years ago) writing an adventure game interpreter. This was for the text-based kind of game where you would type things like
go north take box open boxand so on... The interpreter was written in 8086 assembly language but it processed the game program from files written in a lisp-like (Lost In Stupid Parentheses) language. The clever thing (for the time; this pre-dated C++) was that the lisp-like language was object-oriented and supported inheritance. You could have base classes likethingandactorin your code and derive pretty much everything from them. They could have actions and attributes which could override or extend the base class definitions. I lost the code many moons ago but I often wish I still had it. I used it to create a game for my daughter when she was just able to read and type (a year or so before she started school). Now she's just finishing university (who said computer games couldn't be educational? ;) ).
The opinions expressed in this communication do not necessarily represent those of the author (especially if you find them impolite, discourteous or inflammatory).
Phil J Pearson wrote: (Lost In Stupid Parentheses) I've always wondered why it wasn't LITHP.;P There is no doubt when the first automobile race occurred. It was when the second automobile was built. - Richard Petty
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This is an interesting read: http://www-aig.jpl.nasa.gov/public/home/gat/lisp-study.html[^]. I find it hard to believe that Lisp is a practical alternative to C/C++/Java/C#/whatever for complex applications, but apparently it is.
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
Well, speaking Lisp, I would have several comments for and against the points of the article. The article tries to make it sound like Lisp is designed for general purpose operations. Not exactly true. As any programmer knows, you can code any example in any language so that it does the work slower or faster but achieves the same end result. Lisp does "some operations" mostly in relationship to data manipulations rather well, or at least in fewer lines of code. Fewer lines of code does not always equate to fewer bugs, and overhead, but it can. No matter what the author says, Lisp is still a rather esoteric language, as pointed out by others. Can it do some things well? yeah. Can it replace a general purpose language system as C++ or Java? no. Can it do data set manipulations, in some instances, better than othe languages, yes. But that still leaves Lisp as a specialty language for specialty apps, which in the whole scheme of things, is it better to write an app in fewer lines of code, and "maybe" a savings of at most 10% (and that rarely), for a language that would require specialized instruction, more overhead in training, cross-language teaching, etc? probably not. The instances where Lisp are better than Java or C++ are so rare, that it makes it more difficult to deal with than to use a general purpose language that has improved significantly. Chances are, even in those specialty cases, you are better off utilizing the wider support and training provided by C++ and/or Java. Otherwise, it's penny wise, pound foolish. Now, where did I install my Forth, Prolog, Snowball compilers? hmmmmm.... _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Well, speaking Lisp, I would have several comments for and against the points of the article. The article tries to make it sound like Lisp is designed for general purpose operations. Not exactly true. As any programmer knows, you can code any example in any language so that it does the work slower or faster but achieves the same end result. Lisp does "some operations" mostly in relationship to data manipulations rather well, or at least in fewer lines of code. Fewer lines of code does not always equate to fewer bugs, and overhead, but it can. No matter what the author says, Lisp is still a rather esoteric language, as pointed out by others. Can it do some things well? yeah. Can it replace a general purpose language system as C++ or Java? no. Can it do data set manipulations, in some instances, better than othe languages, yes. But that still leaves Lisp as a specialty language for specialty apps, which in the whole scheme of things, is it better to write an app in fewer lines of code, and "maybe" a savings of at most 10% (and that rarely), for a language that would require specialized instruction, more overhead in training, cross-language teaching, etc? probably not. The instances where Lisp are better than Java or C++ are so rare, that it makes it more difficult to deal with than to use a general purpose language that has improved significantly. Chances are, even in those specialty cases, you are better off utilizing the wider support and training provided by C++ and/or Java. Otherwise, it's penny wise, pound foolish. Now, where did I install my Forth, Prolog, Snowball compilers? hmmmmm.... _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
and for any author who equates "fewer lines of code" as always a positive thing.... I would point them here: http://www0.us.ioccc.org/years.html[^] _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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is still true ? There were a lot of advancement in C/C++ ( and Java ) in the last few years
Maximilien Lincourt Your Head A Splode - Strong Bad
All joking aside.... There was a wonderful presentation at the Game Developer's Convention this last spring, presented by one of the divisions of Microsoft. One of the comments was at what cost is your efficiency? You can create a truly more efficiently operating code, that is so difficult to maintain, that it runs your business into the ground trying to support it (he put it more elequently than that), and you can make your code so eloquent that it operates at half the speed and makes your program unplayable except on the highest end computers. I think that the instances, now, where Lisp is faster/better than Java are in the low single digit percentiles (and possibly even in the decimals). People who are trained in large numbers of languages, are probably better employed converting programs out of esoteric languages to the larger supported bases. As you said, there have been advancements in these languages, that cuts down the incident of "more efficient" into the very-rare category, add to that the user/company support and future of your Java and C++. The more esoteric languages are very stagnant in support and future. It is a far better compromise on over-all company efficiency than trying to get that last 1% of speed. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Well, speaking Lisp, I would have several comments for and against the points of the article. The article tries to make it sound like Lisp is designed for general purpose operations. Not exactly true. As any programmer knows, you can code any example in any language so that it does the work slower or faster but achieves the same end result. Lisp does "some operations" mostly in relationship to data manipulations rather well, or at least in fewer lines of code. Fewer lines of code does not always equate to fewer bugs, and overhead, but it can. No matter what the author says, Lisp is still a rather esoteric language, as pointed out by others. Can it do some things well? yeah. Can it replace a general purpose language system as C++ or Java? no. Can it do data set manipulations, in some instances, better than othe languages, yes. But that still leaves Lisp as a specialty language for specialty apps, which in the whole scheme of things, is it better to write an app in fewer lines of code, and "maybe" a savings of at most 10% (and that rarely), for a language that would require specialized instruction, more overhead in training, cross-language teaching, etc? probably not. The instances where Lisp are better than Java or C++ are so rare, that it makes it more difficult to deal with than to use a general purpose language that has improved significantly. Chances are, even in those specialty cases, you are better off utilizing the wider support and training provided by C++ and/or Java. Otherwise, it's penny wise, pound foolish. Now, where did I install my Forth, Prolog, Snowball compilers? hmmmmm.... _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote: Well, speaking Lisp, I would have several comments... I think we're missing the point here. Where does Lisp come from? In the sixties, poor old computer programmers were programming on punch cards! Along comes the latest in compiler technology, a new language concept, based on Church's Lambda Calculus. The revolutionary concept was the 'pointer', or reference type. Never before had this appeared in a compiled language. For this reason, Lisp had to wait until the late seventies/early eighties before general hardware caught up to the point that the true power of Lisp could be utilized. Before this time, the demands on memory and performace were just too great for the average computer. Even in the eighties, with the explosion of expert systems (AI), many of which are based on the Lisp syntax/ideas, specialized hardware was built to run Lisp at top speed. It was expensive, but fortunes were made (and lost) in the Lisp machine market. Compared to Lisp, with its origins right back at the start, C and C++ are babies. Javea, and C# are even newer, building on the lessons of the last 40 years (yes, Lisp is this old). That Lisp still has a role to play at all is a tribute to a language based on pure mathematics, with much power, subtlety, and grace. Do yourself a favor. Get to know a little Lisp, and appreciate a part of history.