virus question
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Scenario A Imagine a virus that infects a computer by a known security fault, which had been patched years ago. If the computer is busy downloading updates, it deletes itself without doing anything at all. If the computer not donwloading updates at the moment, the virus's only operation is to show a message box Hi there, your system is not up to date. 1. Is this virus dangerous/evil/whatever? 2. Should the programmer be punished for writing the virus? 3. Is it just a strange kind of joke? Scenario B The virus from scenario A has got a second feature. Instead of a simple message box, it displays a question box Do you want to report this problem to Microsoft, and start the automatic update service now? If the user is not too shocked to click, he can cancel the virus, or let it fix the security hole. 1. Is this virus dangerous/evil/whatever? 2. Should the programmer be punished for writing the virus? 3. Is it just a strange kind of joke? Post your thoughts, if you have any. Vote '1', if you're not able to discuss. _________________________________ nur Idioten brauchen einen Führer
Not a flaming, just to compare and to see my point of view of all that stuff... Scenario A: Imagine a person checks the door of you appartment if it is locked properly. If not, he enters, searches all your stuff and goods, leaves a note on the table which says: Hi there, I could have stolen all your stuff (worth: approx. 4000$). Your doorlock was not up to date. 1. Is this person dangerous/evil/whatever? 2. Should the person be punished for that? 3. Is it just a strange kind of joke? Scenario B: Imagine a locksmith checks the door of you appartment if it is locked properly. If not, he enters, searches all your stuff and goods, leaves a note on the table which says: Hi there, I could have stolen all your stuff (worth: approx. 4000$). Your doorlock was not up to date. Please call (555) 0815 for a new lock. 1. Is this person dangerous/evil/whatever? 2. Should the person be punished for that? 3. Is it just a strange kind of joke? ... what would you think? really a bad joke at least? save the privacy!
Olli "Ooooooh, they have the internet on computers now!"
Homer Simpson
:beer: + :java: = NULL :=> X| -
Scenario A: 1. The programmer is an idiot. 2. Punishment is appropriate. 3. We are not amused. Scenario B: 1. The programmer is an idiot. 2. Punishment is appropriate. 3. We are not amused. If the programmer really was concerned, he/she should have reported the hole in security to Microsoft, or if he didn't like Microsoft, he/she could have published the information elsewhere where Microsoft would be sure to find it. How the world is the average user, even programmers, expected to recognize the virus as harmless? If I got a popup box like that, I would expect that my computer was infiltrated. I would have to run a thorough check with Norton AV, and if it didn't find anything, which would be the case here, then I would have to wipe the harddisk and make a reinstall, which would cost me at least a half days work. Not very funny indeed. "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies "For example, when a VB programmer comes to my house, they may say 'does your pool need cleaning, sir ?' " - Christian Graus
Scenario C The police finds out that programmer is 10 years old and knows about the security bug from a magazine. He wanted to check if his mega cool virus really works, and show off at school. What kind of punishment would be appropriate? 1. One year without pocket money and TV 2. Go to a different school 3. His parents should pay for any financial damage caused by the virus 4. Force him to write a useful program 5. [insert your ideas here] _________________________________ nur Idioten brauchen einen Führer
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Scenario A Imagine a virus that infects a computer by a known security fault, which had been patched years ago. If the computer is busy downloading updates, it deletes itself without doing anything at all. If the computer not donwloading updates at the moment, the virus's only operation is to show a message box Hi there, your system is not up to date. 1. Is this virus dangerous/evil/whatever? 2. Should the programmer be punished for writing the virus? 3. Is it just a strange kind of joke? Scenario B The virus from scenario A has got a second feature. Instead of a simple message box, it displays a question box Do you want to report this problem to Microsoft, and start the automatic update service now? If the user is not too shocked to click, he can cancel the virus, or let it fix the security hole. 1. Is this virus dangerous/evil/whatever? 2. Should the programmer be punished for writing the virus? 3. Is it just a strange kind of joke? Post your thoughts, if you have any. Vote '1', if you're not able to discuss. _________________________________ nur Idioten brauchen einen Führer
Under both scenarios, I'd want the programmer punished for unauthorized trespassing. If I accidentally left my front door open, it doesn't mean some passing idiot can come in, and paint "you better lock your front door" on my living room wall. It wouldn't amuse me, not at all. Nish
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
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Not a flaming, just to compare and to see my point of view of all that stuff... Scenario A: Imagine a person checks the door of you appartment if it is locked properly. If not, he enters, searches all your stuff and goods, leaves a note on the table which says: Hi there, I could have stolen all your stuff (worth: approx. 4000$). Your doorlock was not up to date. 1. Is this person dangerous/evil/whatever? 2. Should the person be punished for that? 3. Is it just a strange kind of joke? Scenario B: Imagine a locksmith checks the door of you appartment if it is locked properly. If not, he enters, searches all your stuff and goods, leaves a note on the table which says: Hi there, I could have stolen all your stuff (worth: approx. 4000$). Your doorlock was not up to date. Please call (555) 0815 for a new lock. 1. Is this person dangerous/evil/whatever? 2. Should the person be punished for that? 3. Is it just a strange kind of joke? ... what would you think? really a bad joke at least? save the privacy!
Olli "Ooooooh, they have the internet on computers now!"
Homer Simpson
:beer: + :java: = NULL :=> X|Scenario A: The person is not evil, but crazy and maybe dangerous. Just like the programmer in my scenario A. The strange guy should be sent to a doctor. If nothing helps and he breaks into apartments again, we'll have to punish him. Scenario B cannot be comapred to my scenario B. If the locksmith leaves his own number, it is illegal advertising and extremly stupid. But what about a virus loading patches from MS for free? _________________________________ nur Idioten brauchen einen Führer
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Under both scenarios, I'd want the programmer punished for unauthorized trespassing. If I accidentally left my front door open, it doesn't mean some passing idiot can come in, and paint "you better lock your front door" on my living room wall. It wouldn't amuse me, not at all. Nish
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
The best explanation I've read, yet! :-D Would it be nicer if "some passing idiot" saw the open door, and only put a note into the mailbox "You left your door open. I hope it was an accident. You should not leave anything unlocked in this part of town", or don't you want strangers to take a too close look at your house? _________________________________ nur Idioten brauchen einen Führer
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Scenario C The police finds out that programmer is 10 years old and knows about the security bug from a magazine. He wanted to check if his mega cool virus really works, and show off at school. What kind of punishment would be appropriate? 1. One year without pocket money and TV 2. Go to a different school 3. His parents should pay for any financial damage caused by the virus 4. Force him to write a useful program 5. [insert your ideas here] _________________________________ nur Idioten brauchen einen Führer
Every country got laws for handling crimes committed by children, I can't see what makes this case different from eg. stealing in the local mall. In Denmark the programmer would probably be placed under surveillance by the local authorities. If he continues on the bad track, he will probably be removed from the family, and put in a substitute family. What kind of punishment the parents will give him is up to them. "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies "For example, when a VB programmer comes to my house, they may say 'does your pool need cleaning, sir ?' " - Christian Graus
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Under both scenarios, I'd want the programmer punished for unauthorized trespassing. If I accidentally left my front door open, it doesn't mean some passing idiot can come in, and paint "you better lock your front door" on my living room wall. It wouldn't amuse me, not at all. Nish
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
How about if you'd accidently left the door open and the passing idiot walked up and closed the door for you? David Parrott
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Colin Angus Mackay wrote: Very interesting links there. I believe you can guess how often someone (usually, a non-programmer) approaches me with "hey, I had this great idea to finish all viruses in the world!". :-D I have those links bookmarked just for this. :sigh: Yes, even I am blogging now!
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Every country got laws for handling crimes committed by children, I can't see what makes this case different from eg. stealing in the local mall. In Denmark the programmer would probably be placed under surveillance by the local authorities. If he continues on the bad track, he will probably be removed from the family, and put in a substitute family. What kind of punishment the parents will give him is up to them. "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies "For example, when a VB programmer comes to my house, they may say 'does your pool need cleaning, sir ?' " - Christian Graus
That is no answer to the question. I'm not interested in any laws of any country. (Not in this case. In general I am interested, of course...) ;) What do you, as a person, not as laywer, you only yourself, find appropriate? _________________________________ nur Idioten brauchen einen Führer
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How about if you'd accidently left the door open and the passing idiot walked up and closed the door for you? David Parrott
Aaaaarrrrrgghh! How about if you left the key inside, and a passing idiot closed the door? To stick to the topic of computer viruses: How about if you did not install a patch, because it would block an important feature, some stupid auto-updater installed in, and now ten important applications don't run anymore? _________________________________ nur Idioten brauchen einen Führer
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Scenario A: The person is not evil, but crazy and maybe dangerous. Just like the programmer in my scenario A. The strange guy should be sent to a doctor. If nothing helps and he breaks into apartments again, we'll have to punish him. Scenario B cannot be comapred to my scenario B. If the locksmith leaves his own number, it is illegal advertising and extremly stupid. But what about a virus loading patches from MS for free? _________________________________ nur Idioten brauchen einen Führer
Corinna John wrote: Scenario B cannot be comapred to my scenario B. If the locksmith leaves his own number, it is illegal advertising and extremly stupid. But what about a virus loading patches from MS for free? What if the locksmith fitted a new lock for free? How would feel about that? (Especially if they lock it on the way out)
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That is no answer to the question. I'm not interested in any laws of any country. (Not in this case. In general I am interested, of course...) ;) What do you, as a person, not as laywer, you only yourself, find appropriate? _________________________________ nur Idioten brauchen einen Führer
I think that the authorities and the parents should keep an eye on the kid, and they should take a real serious discussion with him. I don't believe in taking away resources, like pocket money, from kids on the first incident, that should be spared for any reiterations of the crime. "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies "For example, when a VB programmer comes to my house, they may say 'does your pool need cleaning, sir ?' " - Christian Graus
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Under both scenarios, I'd want the programmer punished for unauthorized trespassing. If I accidentally left my front door open, it doesn't mean some passing idiot can come in, and paint "you better lock your front door" on my living room wall. It wouldn't amuse me, not at all. Nish
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
Nishant S wrote: If I accidentally left my front door open, it doesn't mean some passing idiot can come in, and paint "you better lock your front door" on my living room wall. It wouldn't amuse me, not at all. It's more like someone passing by, closing the door and leave a note "be careful, your door was open". :) His indetions are good. His action is perfect. But he is still an idiot because he didn't learn not to mess with other's business. The general rule is "Don't help until you been asked for". - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Memory leaks is the price we pay \0 01234567890123456789012345678901234
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Scenario C The police finds out that programmer is 10 years old and knows about the security bug from a magazine. He wanted to check if his mega cool virus really works, and show off at school. What kind of punishment would be appropriate? 1. One year without pocket money and TV 2. Go to a different school 3. His parents should pay for any financial damage caused by the virus 4. Force him to write a useful program 5. [insert your ideas here] _________________________________ nur Idioten brauchen einen Führer
5. Nail the little bugger to the frikkin' wall as an example to others.
Software Zen:
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The best explanation I've read, yet! :-D Would it be nicer if "some passing idiot" saw the open door, and only put a note into the mailbox "You left your door open. I hope it was an accident. You should not leave anything unlocked in this part of town", or don't you want strangers to take a too close look at your house? _________________________________ nur Idioten brauchen einen Führer
Corinna John wrote: Would it be nicer if "some passing idiot" saw the open door, and only put a note into the mailbox "You left your door open. I hope it was an accident. You should not leave anything unlocked in this part of town", or don't you want strangers to take a too close look at your house? Hmmm, this is like a psychology class, with each answer resulting in a deeper question :-) If someone found my door open and left a note in my mailbox, I wouldn't mind that all that much I guess. In computer/virus terms, this would mean getting an email saying I have a risk of being infected by viruses. Only problem is that, the passer-by who observed my open front-door did so non-intrusively, but can a distributed app scan my computer from outside in a non-intrusive manner?
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
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Scenario A Imagine a virus that infects a computer by a known security fault, which had been patched years ago. If the computer is busy downloading updates, it deletes itself without doing anything at all. If the computer not donwloading updates at the moment, the virus's only operation is to show a message box Hi there, your system is not up to date. 1. Is this virus dangerous/evil/whatever? 2. Should the programmer be punished for writing the virus? 3. Is it just a strange kind of joke? Scenario B The virus from scenario A has got a second feature. Instead of a simple message box, it displays a question box Do you want to report this problem to Microsoft, and start the automatic update service now? If the user is not too shocked to click, he can cancel the virus, or let it fix the security hole. 1. Is this virus dangerous/evil/whatever? 2. Should the programmer be punished for writing the virus? 3. Is it just a strange kind of joke? Post your thoughts, if you have any. Vote '1', if you're not able to discuss. _________________________________ nur Idioten brauchen einen Führer
I don't recall the details, but it has been done. Turns out though that there was a bug in this virus that cuased it to do more damage accidently than the origional virus it was in response to caused! Don't do it. There are too many systems out there, so you can't test them all. Some strange interaction that you didn't think of ends up killing you.
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Scenario C The police finds out that programmer is 10 years old and knows about the security bug from a magazine. He wanted to check if his mega cool virus really works, and show off at school. What kind of punishment would be appropriate? 1. One year without pocket money and TV 2. Go to a different school 3. His parents should pay for any financial damage caused by the virus 4. Force him to write a useful program 5. [insert your ideas here] _________________________________ nur Idioten brauchen einen Führer
5. He (she) should be required to attend an all-girl (boy) school until old enough to appreciate it. "If it's Snowbird season, why can't we shoot them?" - Overheard in a bar in Bullhead City
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Scenario A Imagine a virus that infects a computer by a known security fault, which had been patched years ago. If the computer is busy downloading updates, it deletes itself without doing anything at all. If the computer not donwloading updates at the moment, the virus's only operation is to show a message box Hi there, your system is not up to date. 1. Is this virus dangerous/evil/whatever? 2. Should the programmer be punished for writing the virus? 3. Is it just a strange kind of joke? Scenario B The virus from scenario A has got a second feature. Instead of a simple message box, it displays a question box Do you want to report this problem to Microsoft, and start the automatic update service now? If the user is not too shocked to click, he can cancel the virus, or let it fix the security hole. 1. Is this virus dangerous/evil/whatever? 2. Should the programmer be punished for writing the virus? 3. Is it just a strange kind of joke? Post your thoughts, if you have any. Vote '1', if you're not able to discuss. _________________________________ nur Idioten brauchen einen Führer
Stop and think about a virus for a minute. Forget anything dealing with a gag programs, jokes, or humor, or even benefitial programs. A virus is an uncontrolled self-replicating program. While my brother worked for Intel his deptartment was asked about the feasability of a "friendly virus" one that monitored their internal network and protected the systems. The concept so that they don't have to install software, anyone who brings a computer in from home automatically gets the "guardian virus" without knowing it. Theory great... practicality... questionable. My brother asked my opinion since at the time I was volunteering help on some anti-virus groups on the net. I wasn't too nice about it. Since the virus self-replicates, a home computer comes in, takes the virus, returns home, spreads to that network and then out. Now you have a release. Their virus was going to be much more complicated than your every day virus, including virus detection and network analysis and all kinds of fun little ideas. Could they guarentee it would not crash with ever network card, current or not even released? If they are wrong, you now have an active virus that causes problems, even if unintentional. There is no "friendly virus". _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Scenario A: The person is not evil, but crazy and maybe dangerous. Just like the programmer in my scenario A. The strange guy should be sent to a doctor. If nothing helps and he breaks into apartments again, we'll have to punish him. Scenario B cannot be comapred to my scenario B. If the locksmith leaves his own number, it is illegal advertising and extremly stupid. But what about a virus loading patches from MS for free? _________________________________ nur Idioten brauchen einen Führer
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I will have to remember these, since I keep having these discussions with people. I have always been adamant that there is no such thing as a good virus. Steadfast and stubborn to a fault with it too. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)