US 'alienating' world's Muslims
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US 'alienating' world's Muslims The US is losing "the war of ideas" in the Islamic world, a Pentagon advisory panel has warned. A report by the Defence Science Board says official US talk of bringing democracy to Muslim nations is seen as "self-serving hypocrisy". It says if the US wants Muslims to move towards its understanding of tolerance, it must reassure them this does not mean submitting to "the American way". The report urges Washington to change its approach urgently. I wonder what Bush and neocons will derive off of this. Please post your thoughts
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Anonymous Friend wrote: So do you think that the report and its finding are incorrect? Heck-ah-roony, the report is not only incorrect, it is a phantom. The mechnanization of some reporter's scotch-soaked mind. A flight of fancy. It is a sick attempt to incite misguided Muslim youth into stupid acts of violence that will only lead to the slow bleed off of the Muslim youth from the body Muslim politic. And look at you. You took the bait, didn't you? Didn't even check your facts because you don't truly understand who or what the heck is really going on. Best, Jerry
"Making money is art and working is art and good business is the best art of all."--Andy Warhol Toasty0.com
Toasty0 wrote: Heck-ah-roony, the report is not only incorrect, it is a phantom. The mechnanization of some reporter's scotch-soaked mind. A flight of fancy. Amazing this phantom has a web site[^] Toasty0 wrote: And look at you. You took the bait, didn't you? Didn't even check your facts because you don't truly understand who or what the heck is really going on. :rolleyes::laugh: Discovery consist of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought -- Albert Szent-Györgyi Name the greatest of all the inventors: accident --Mark Twain
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And as if you've never displayed any arrogance. Oh wait, that's right let's not point the figure at ourselves. Jeremy Falcon
I've never understood that argument. On the one hand you run round loudly protesting that you are doing everything you can to help make the world a better place and yet on the other you jump at every opportunity to avoid it by playing the "but mummy he did it" card? That is the worst form of hypocrisy IMO, and it is shown here on CodeProject time and time again. FWIW - not that it will matter - he didn't exclude himself from his comment, you did.
David Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
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This is the report that the BBC used.[^] Discovery consist of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought -- Albert Szent-Györgyi Name the greatest of all the inventors: accident --Mark Twain
And the BBC article is an excellent example of how the Beeb uses selective quoting to make something seem entirely different than it is. Read the report, and see for yourself. BBC is seriously misreprensenting the report by means of a very selective quotes taken out of context.... Why would anyone waste time arguing with an accountant about anything? Their sole function is to record what happenned, and any higher aspirations are mere delusions of grandeur. On the ladder of productive contributions they are the little rubber pads at the bottom that keep the thing from sliding out from under you. - Roger Wright
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And the BBC article is an excellent example of how the Beeb uses selective quoting to make something seem entirely different than it is. Read the report, and see for yourself. BBC is seriously misreprensenting the report by means of a very selective quotes taken out of context.... Why would anyone waste time arguing with an accountant about anything? Their sole function is to record what happenned, and any higher aspirations are mere delusions of grandeur. On the ladder of productive contributions they are the little rubber pads at the bottom that keep the thing from sliding out from under you. - Roger Wright
not necesarily true, i am still reading the report, i just found it, yesterday was just me and the turkey ;P . From what I have read, the report is not based on arab relations like bbc claims, but does go to speak alot about it. The honest truth is that to think these peopl hate us for "freedom" is an insult to them as it is to us. After so many generations of violence over things as trivial as culture, you'd think we could find more peaceful resolutions. All the war rhetoric and Bush's crap divides people. You are with us or you are not, not a single hint of compromise. Talk like that should be used for those like Osama, but not for every member of his race. [edit] The title of the report is strategic communication. The point of using current events is the fact that many muslims do not think like we do. Therefore what may seem fine to you and me, may not to them. On top of that, many of our polocies make us look like hypocrytes. If we do not understand our enemy, and we do not care for their opinion, and we think everyone who does not agree with us is an enemy, then its not really "delivering democracy" is it. [/edit] Discovery consist of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought -- Albert Szent-Györgyi Name the greatest of all the inventors: accident --Mark Twain
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Too lazy to include a quick sig? I doubt it. Jeremy Falcon
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Humility and the will to enlighten. May sound corny as hell, but when people hate you, you should try to clarify their reasons of hatred. How ya gonna learn, if no one teaches you. Discovery consist of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought -- Albert Szent-Györgyi Name the greatest of all the inventors: accident --Mark Twain
There are many situations where I might agree with that (in dealing with sane religions such as Christianity, for example). However, I do not feel that this is such a situation. Firstly, I have no tolerance of Muslim types who call our leadership criminal and have absolutely no criticism of their own culture. I have no intention of trying to "enlighten" anyone who is that out of touch with reality. All I hear them saying is that it is all our fault - that somehow we deserve what the terrorists give us. If any one thinks I am going to be humble confronted with that bullshit they are insane. If I could just hear one of these guys say "yeah, we have some problems at home that we really need to deal with" I would be very happy to meet them half way and admit that, yes, the US has some messes it needs to clean up also. But whatever the problem is, it is certainly not all our fault. We have done far more good than we have done harm. Secondly, these terrorists are very savy of Western civilization, they well understand the propensity of left wing elements in our society to back down from confrontations with foreign cultures in the name of "multi-culturalism". They know full well that the left suffers from a guilt ridden angst towards their own culture and they intend to take full advantage of it. I fully believe that a staunch defense of our own values, an in your face, confrontational approach to these guys is the best approach - to make sure there is no doubt in their minds that we have any intention of backing down from a single value or principle we believe in. Anything less will be a sign of weakness on our part that will merely bring on more violence. The solution to all this will ultimately be all of us working together to find one, but that is never going to happen until they understand that they will lose any direct confrontation with us. They have to rid themselves of terrorism or face complete distruction. So, in short, to hell with humility.
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And the BBC article is an excellent example of how the Beeb uses selective quoting to make something seem entirely different than it is. Read the report, and see for yourself. BBC is seriously misreprensenting the report by means of a very selective quotes taken out of context.... Why would anyone waste time arguing with an accountant about anything? Their sole function is to record what happenned, and any higher aspirations are mere delusions of grandeur. On the ladder of productive contributions they are the little rubber pads at the bottom that keep the thing from sliding out from under you. - Roger Wright
Rob Graham wrote: And the BBC article is an excellent example of how the Beeb uses selective quoting to make something seem entirely different than it is. MSNBC also had the same take... "Terror war seen hurting U.S. in Muslim world Radicals gain new stature, Pentagon advisory panel says" http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6577524[^] Later, JoeSox Word of the Day: pastiche http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/ CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ joeswammi.com/sinfest
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US 'alienating' world's Muslims The US is losing "the war of ideas" in the Islamic world, a Pentagon advisory panel has warned. A report by the Defence Science Board says official US talk of bringing democracy to Muslim nations is seen as "self-serving hypocrisy". It says if the US wants Muslims to move towards its understanding of tolerance, it must reassure them this does not mean submitting to "the American way". The report urges Washington to change its approach urgently. I wonder what Bush and neocons will derive off of this. Please post your thoughts
Anonymous Friend wrote: I wonder what Bush and neocons will derive off of this. I am glad someone provided a link to the report because I tried searching and couldn't find it. I did find out what Rummy thought about it (I am assuming it is the same report)... "...SEC. RUMSFELD: I'm not concerned, because the chiefs repeatedly test our capabilities against the conceivable demands for those capabilities. And as General Myers and General Pace and other chiefs have repeatedly said, we have the capability of fulfilling the missions that the United States military are called upon to perform and likely to be called upon to perform. I think what you -- what was in the report -- I don't want to characterize it, because I've not gone back to double-check it -- but I think a safe way to characterize it is this. Hypothetically, they said if you initiated a new set of activities every period of years and if those activities extended longer than the period between the initiation of new activities, you would for some period of time have a layering effect of requirements. And that's true. And therefore they raised questions as to how that could be dealt with. Now we have been looking at the same issue, obviously, on a monthly basis. We have, as you know, under way something like 35 or 45 initiatives to reduce stress on the force. We have used the emergency authorities to increase the size of the force. And we have been undertaking as rapidly as possible the steps on that long list of initiatives, in ways that we believe should -- may not, but should deal with the kinds of problems that those hypothetical questions in that summer study posed. We are every bit as interested in the subject as anybody else. It's not like there's anything new there conceptually. I thought it was a sufficiently interesting study that I immediately asked that it be briefed to the chiefs, briefed to the combatant commanders, briefed to the senior civilian leadership in the department and the Joint Staff. And that's going forward -- not because it's novel or new, but because it's an important subject and it's something that it's our responsibility to think about and plan for." http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2004/tr20040924-secdef1326.html[^] I just heard on the news that
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There are many situations where I might agree with that (in dealing with sane religions such as Christianity, for example). However, I do not feel that this is such a situation. Firstly, I have no tolerance of Muslim types who call our leadership criminal and have absolutely no criticism of their own culture. I have no intention of trying to "enlighten" anyone who is that out of touch with reality. All I hear them saying is that it is all our fault - that somehow we deserve what the terrorists give us. If any one thinks I am going to be humble confronted with that bullshit they are insane. If I could just hear one of these guys say "yeah, we have some problems at home that we really need to deal with" I would be very happy to meet them half way and admit that, yes, the US has some messes it needs to clean up also. But whatever the problem is, it is certainly not all our fault. We have done far more good than we have done harm. Secondly, these terrorists are very savy of Western civilization, they well understand the propensity of left wing elements in our society to back down from confrontations with foreign cultures in the name of "multi-culturalism". They know full well that the left suffers from a guilt ridden angst towards their own culture and they intend to take full advantage of it. I fully believe that a staunch defense of our own values, an in your face, confrontational approach to these guys is the best approach - to make sure there is no doubt in their minds that we have any intention of backing down from a single value or principle we believe in. Anything less will be a sign of weakness on our part that will merely bring on more violence. The solution to all this will ultimately be all of us working together to find one, but that is never going to happen until they understand that they will lose any direct confrontation with us. They have to rid themselves of terrorism or face complete distruction. So, in short, to hell with humility.
I agree with everything you say. Those who find flaws within our leadership but not within themselves are a major part of the problem. Both sides have this "holier than thou" thing going. One thing the report says that i find highly disturbing is that the US has no channels of communication into the muslim world. How are we going to find the people who are willing to work with us, when we do not even speak to them. This situation is alot more complicated due to the vast "classes and cultural groups" muslim people actually break into. Though the president is not criminal, he dances that line everyday, with little to no reason. Terrorist are now growing stronger, and muslim hatred rising. Info from an ex-cia op says that Osama has been given "religous permission" to use nuclear weapons. Iran has been building their nuclear program thruogh deception. And i do not think that these people think they can beat us, they feel as if they have no choice. Our ideals are not the worlds ideals, and as a "superpower" we must be the first to show kindness. Ill tell you the honest truth, if I were pres I would have taken about 6 months to a year to try every peacful and positive measure to show i want peace. If that does not work, I'd make the middle East "uninhabitable" for the next 1000 years, perhaps then we can be more grown up about it. Discovery consist of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought -- Albert Szent-Györgyi Name the greatest of all the inventors: accident --Mark Twain
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Just out of curiosity, what should our reaction to their arrogance be? Humility? Introspection? If we have any faith in our own values at all, why wouldn't a little arrogance own our part be in order.
Laughter? I don't know. If I knew, I'd run for president*. IU ony know that a shouting match is never finished by shouting louder. For the time being, the "American way" is not an attractive alternative. They don't_see_ the values you proclaim. They see yet another fist-shaking, rattling dictator living on the ivory tower telling the mud how to live. The previous government here had one minister that I will never forget. I didn't like his boss, his party, or his politics. A little man, he'd never make it chancellor. But he had one thing that struck me everytime: dignity. * or maybe the evil oil companies would lock me away in a dark prison, fearing the day they might need my arcane insight :rolleyes:
we are here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is Vonnegut jr.
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygen -
There are many situations where I might agree with that (in dealing with sane religions such as Christianity, for example). However, I do not feel that this is such a situation. Firstly, I have no tolerance of Muslim types who call our leadership criminal and have absolutely no criticism of their own culture. I have no intention of trying to "enlighten" anyone who is that out of touch with reality. All I hear them saying is that it is all our fault - that somehow we deserve what the terrorists give us. If any one thinks I am going to be humble confronted with that bullshit they are insane. If I could just hear one of these guys say "yeah, we have some problems at home that we really need to deal with" I would be very happy to meet them half way and admit that, yes, the US has some messes it needs to clean up also. But whatever the problem is, it is certainly not all our fault. We have done far more good than we have done harm. Secondly, these terrorists are very savy of Western civilization, they well understand the propensity of left wing elements in our society to back down from confrontations with foreign cultures in the name of "multi-culturalism". They know full well that the left suffers from a guilt ridden angst towards their own culture and they intend to take full advantage of it. I fully believe that a staunch defense of our own values, an in your face, confrontational approach to these guys is the best approach - to make sure there is no doubt in their minds that we have any intention of backing down from a single value or principle we believe in. Anything less will be a sign of weakness on our part that will merely bring on more violence. The solution to all this will ultimately be all of us working together to find one, but that is never going to happen until they understand that they will lose any direct confrontation with us. They have to rid themselves of terrorism or face complete distruction. So, in short, to hell with humility.
Humility doesn't mean weakness.
we are here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is Vonnegut jr.
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygen -
I've never understood that argument. On the one hand you run round loudly protesting that you are doing everything you can to help make the world a better place and yet on the other you jump at every opportunity to avoid it by playing the "but mummy he did it" card? That is the worst form of hypocrisy IMO, and it is shown here on CodeProject time and time again. FWIW - not that it will matter - he didn't exclude himself from his comment, you did.
David Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Everybody is entitled to my opinion
thanks David :-O
we are here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is Vonnegut jr.
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygen -
Toasty0 wrote: I just checked my facts--something the BBC seems to have failed to do again--and there is no such report by the DCB. Please verify here [^] Third from the top "Strategic Communication". Before you are so quick to judge you should "research" first. Took me 5 seconds to search the pdfs with key words take from quotes in the article. Maybe when you check your facts, you should do it competently. Discovery consist of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought -- Albert Szent-Györgyi Name the greatest of all the inventors: accident --Mark Twain
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Humility doesn't mean weakness.
we are here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is Vonnegut jr.
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygenpeterchen wrote: Humility doesn't mean weakness. Depends on who you are dealing with. The notion that humility is the appropriate first response to any sort of confrontation is most certainly a weakness.
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Rob Graham wrote: And the BBC article is an excellent example of how the Beeb uses selective quoting to make something seem entirely different than it is. MSNBC also had the same take... "Terror war seen hurting U.S. in Muslim world Radicals gain new stature, Pentagon advisory panel says" http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6577524[^] Later, JoeSox Word of the Day: pastiche http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/ CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ joeswammi.com/sinfest
JoeSox wrote: MSNBC also had the same take... Never said that the beeb had an exclusive corner on distortion via selective quoting... if you read the whole report, the major point made is that we are losing the propaganda war, and that we need to focus more effort there. I have no argument with that at all. The beeb and MSNBC (and others) continue to help us lose that propaganda war by perpetually painting the US as the bad guys, while largely ignoring the atrocities on the othe side. Will the world be better off if the freinds of Osama and Al-Zarqawi win the propaganda war? Why would anyone waste time arguing with an accountant about anything? Their sole function is to record what happenned, and any higher aspirations are mere delusions of grandeur. On the ladder of productive contributions they are the little rubber pads at the bottom that keep the thing from sliding out from under you. - Roger Wright
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JoeSox wrote: MSNBC also had the same take... Never said that the beeb had an exclusive corner on distortion via selective quoting... if you read the whole report, the major point made is that we are losing the propaganda war, and that we need to focus more effort there. I have no argument with that at all. The beeb and MSNBC (and others) continue to help us lose that propaganda war by perpetually painting the US as the bad guys, while largely ignoring the atrocities on the othe side. Will the world be better off if the freinds of Osama and Al-Zarqawi win the propaganda war? Why would anyone waste time arguing with an accountant about anything? Their sole function is to record what happenned, and any higher aspirations are mere delusions of grandeur. On the ladder of productive contributions they are the little rubber pads at the bottom that keep the thing from sliding out from under you. - Roger Wright
I've read most of the report, and it says more than that. The report goes to say that many of our policies are anti-muslim, in the eys of muslims (not the report or me). This is also a powerful statement: "Thus the critical problem in American diplomacy directed towards the Muslim World is not one of "dissemination of information", or even one of crafting and delivering the "right" message. Rather, it is a fundamental problem of credibility. Simply, there is none - the United States today is without a working channel to the world of Muslims and of Islam. Inevitably therefore, whatever Americans do and say only serves the party that has both the message and the "loud and clear" channel: the enemy. Arguably the first step toward mitigating and eventually even reversing this situation is to better understand the values and worldview of the target itself." From there on it speaks about ways to do this. That a powerful statement, this means we want to resolve a situation we do not fully even understand. Now i would not be surprised if you could not tell me the difference between a Muslim, a sectarian Muslim, a Kurd or the different tribes and what they represent, but do you think Bush does? I mean how do you get peace, when you do not even know who you are fighting half the time. Look in Iraq, you have kids who think they are defending their homes, you have insurgents trying to fill in the vacuum of power, terrorist trying to make "jihad" with the western devil. Has anyone taken the time to try to distiguish these people and find common ground? This is more than just propaganda, its about relaying a message that better suits all of us. If you can look at this war and say that GWB made a wise well thought out decision, then you are just as lost. I have read post going on about, they want us all dead, maybe they just want to live? Who the hell is "they", or does putting a face, a name, and maybe a soul behind that person make just a little too real. And if anything the propaganda is on full when the Iraqi war comes to play, its so safe that they will run elections in a month, so unsafe Bush did not have make a second thanksgiving visit. Thats some propaganda Discovery consist of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought -- Albert Szent-Györgyi Name the greatest of all the inventors: accident --Mark Twain
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For the ignorant and people with IQ less than 10. US Fails to Explain Policies to Muslim World, Panel Says Panel condemns image US gives to Muslims Terror war seen hurting US in Muslim world
Obviously you did not read the report.
"Making money is art and working is art and good business is the best art of all."--Andy Warhol Toasty0.com
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Trollslayer wrote: At least the Pentagon is looking at this. Oh, happy day. Say, have you picked out your burka yet? Better hurry before the rush.
Saudi Arabia currently owns 5% of this nations economy and is our primary importer of oil. Most of the hijackers were Saudi Arabian, as were their sponsors. GWB and his pop consider the Saudi royal family as "close freinds", look down, you already have your burka on Discovery consist of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought -- Albert Szent-Györgyi Name the greatest of all the inventors: accident --Mark Twain
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You are paranoid. Your tin-foil hat is in the post. Despite their occasional anti-government bias, the BBC, being PUBLICLY FUNDED are still more impartial than any other media in the UK and I will not accept that Whitehall mandarins are skulking in the background pulling levers for political advantage. What proof do you have of government interference with BBC news storied? A "gut feeling"? "Personal belief"? Bollocks more like. You'll have to do MUCH better than that for fucks sake!
What the hell do you need? A blinking neon light to remind you of the lies that they have passed on? I will take a paranoid label over a blind fool label. The proof is Mordechai Vanunu was turned in by a Mossad spy working for the Sunday Mirror. If that is what Mossad had working for them imagine what MI5 has in their very own country. And that is the tip of the iceburg. They fed us crap on the WMD's (Which I myself bought, for a while) then invaded Iraq. It's an economic war for oil. That is the only possible reason for all this.
Every nation ridicules other nations, and all are right. - Schopenhauer