Source code control

Chris Maunder

What's your experience with Source Code Control? I've used (briefly) VSS (may it forever keep a large distance from me) then we used SourceGear's Vault (nice, good integration, had issues - probably user issues - while working remote), and now we're trying ionForge Evolution. It looks promising, has all the stuff for remote work so Paul, Nish, Smitha and I can do our coding thing scattered on the four winds, and has VS.NET integration. Small frowns are appearing as I read about "Productions" and "Sub-Productions" instead of projects and workspaces, but it looks good so far. I mean, I know when I code it can be a bit of a production (maybe a comedy?) but still... So, anyone use other SCC systems? CVS? cheers, Chris Maunder

roel_

We're using Sourcesafe atm, but it sucks (and that's when I'm being nice to it). I've used CVS extensively, but if I had to set up a new server new I'd go with subversion, it fixes CVS's problems. Is cross-platform, too. For a comparison of source control systems, see http://better-scm.berlios.de/comparison/comparison.html.

Lost User

http://better-scm.berlios.de/comparison/comparison.html[^] The tigress is here :-D

Anders Molin

We use Vault for the development of DnnBB Forum[^] which is done from remote locations. I'm very interested in which errors you had with Vault. We have not had a single issue yet, but it would be good to know what we have to keep an eye on... - Anders Developer Forums That Work
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Marc Clifton

Chris Maunder wrote: What's your experience with Source Code Control? Out of curiosity, what are you using right now? I guess I'm a plain-ol' CVS person. It's simple to set up, it works great, but I still haven't figured out how to get the cvs mailer to work. Oh, and it's free. I like that part. Seems that most source control systems charge you an arm and a leg. Marc MyXaml Advanced Unit Testing

peterchen

We are working with VSS, and it is OK. It's not a big problem as long as a few people work mainly on different projects (as it is here 3..5 ppl). Easy to setup and administrate, fast to explain, can be backed up by pkzipc+xcopy, and I actually like the exclusive checkouts. Only one "problem" in the last five years, which was restored quickly from the nightly backup (even though the repair tool didn't run for >3 years) Would be dead in the gutter without VC6 integration though, not worth the price tag, quirky, and sharing support sucks.

we are here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is Vonnegut jr.
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygen__

Daniel Turini

Chris Maunder wrote: So, anyone use other SCC systems? CVS? Better than this, I'll give you some questions to ask when considering a new SCC: 1. What's the format of the storage? Beware of proprietary formats like the one VSS uses. When you have a corrupt repository, this makes all the difference. 2. Ok, let's suppose I used this SCC for an year, and now I want to migrate to another. How can I export my history? 3. Client-server operation is a must, as you already did notice. Anything that is not client/server doesn't have performance for this. 4. How many 3rd party tools are available? This also shows how easy is to integrate it with your own code. 5. The cost of the SCC is actually low compared to the cost of your code, but open source is nice because it's often multiplatform. 6. Don't believe in all those who promise "integration with VS.NET". The best way of doing it is by working directly on the file system, specially for ASP.NET development. The only reason for integration for VS.NET is a poor locking mode, which keeps you all day long cheking in and out your code. 7. Exclusive checkouts are stupid, and not scalable (in terms of staff size). Run away from any SCC that works only with exclusive checkouts. 8. How well does it work with binary files? 9. How well does it work with files that should not be merged, even if they are text files? 10. How mature is it? A SCC tool that is only a few months old isn't stable enough (i.e., you'll face a lot of bugs, probably). For most of the reasons above, I chose CVS. Yes, even I am blogging now!

Chris Meech

I'll join you on that. I've been using it for 7 years on one project. It's not lost a file or any history during that time. The database of code is now on it's third file server even. I guess we just demand too little from it. :-D Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] Gently arching his fishing rod back he moves the tip forward in a gentle arch releasing the line.... kersplunk [Doug Goulden]

Mike Dimmick

We're using Vault but our development team is only 5 people, the largest number of people we've had work simultaneously on the same project is 3, and we rarely use it remotely (I occasionally inspect things from home). No issues except for occasional user error - e.g. using Get Latest with the Overwrite option unsurprisingly overwrites modified local files, but the modifications can be recovered since Vault backs up the local copy before overwriting or attempting a merge. Vault requires virtually zero maintenance. We perform a SQL Server full backup every week and a transaction log backup daily. After the weekly backup a scheduled task performs integrity checking and optimisation based on a maintenance plan generated from the SQL Server maintenance wizard. I'm sure SourceGear would be interested in any issues you had with Vault. Stability. What an interesting concept. -- Chris Maunder

Andy Brummer

I've used VSS remotely and it is really slow. I've setup subversion for some small projects and it works well over slow connections and it has explorer and VS.net integration that works much better then any of the VSS integration. It doesn't put any extra information in the projects.

I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon

Graham Bradshaw

Defending VSS... Daniel Turini wrote: 1. What's the format of the storage? Beware of proprietary formats like the one VSS uses. When you have a corrupt repository, this makes all the difference. Or a better approach might be to not worry about the repository format, if it doesn't corrupt. We've been using VSS for 9 years here (with histories going back that far for some projects), and we've had one problem. We restored from backups - that's what they're there for. Daniel Turini wrote: 3. Client-server operation is a must, as you already did notice. Anything that is not client/server doesn't have performance for this. The VSS model is fine, if your network performance is OK. Daniel Turini wrote: 7. Exclusive checkouts are stupid, and not scalable (in terms of staff size). Run away from any SCC that works only with exclusive checkouts. VSS allows multiple checkouts.

Daniel Turini

Graham Bradshaw wrote: Or a better approach might be to not worry about the repository format, if it doesn't corrupt. We've been using VSS for 9 years here (with histories going back that far for some projects), and we've had one problem. We restored from backups - that's what they're there for. We had corruption problems every week (on average) with VSS here. Have you run analyze.exe lately? Do you get really old versions often? If you answered no to those questions, that's why you think you never had a corruption problem in 9 years. :) And backups are for hardware problems. Graham Bradshaw wrote: The VSS model is fine, if your network performance is OK. Sure. Next time someone mentions Oracle or SQL Server, suggest Access. Try to "get latest version" on a 1GB repository over a fast VPN. With VSS, this took a whole night (I'm not kidding). With CVS, this takes less than 1 minute, because only the query and changed data is sent. Client-server access is a must, really. If any of your client machines have a bad memory chip, your repository is gone. Graham Bradshaw wrote: VSS allows multiple checkouts. I never said the opposite. Yes, even I am blogging now!

David Salter

I'm using Subversion and have been using if for about a year now within my team. I'm still on version 1.0.0 and haven't spotted any bugs yet!! I primarily chose Subversion as you don't have to be online to the repository all the time, something which is essential for remote workers. I use it over a dialup and VPN connection and it works a treat - really fast. Its easy to set up also on both Windows and Penguin servers (if they take your fancy!). In the past I've predominantly used VSS, although not remotely. I didn't have many problems with it (apart from user accounts going missing), so I guess I was lucky ;)

Paul Charles

Check out darcs, it's free

rkellow

In the past I have used VSS a lot with some corruption problems as have been mentioned here. For the past year I have benn on a project where the company uses PerForce. It took some getting use to (a lot different than VSS) but now that I have finally have it figured out, it's been pretty good. It works fine remotely and on all different platforms. I think it's $$$ though. --Rob

Allen Anderson

I run into this exact same problem. I'm using CVSNT right now but only becuase there doesn't seem to be anything else that's good, easy to use and not rediculously expensive. I tried perforce but it was too complicated for what should be easy tasks. Vss is a piece of junk. Seapine is confusing and overpriced. My biggest gripes about cvs are that to move a directory I have to go to the server and move it manually and managing access permissions for directories is a major chore.

Andy Brummer

As far as getting a corrupt VSS "database" it depends on the features that you use. Things like labels and sharing files tend to corrupt the databae much more often. If you just do simple check in check out operations, VSS is much more stable. The VSS "client/server" model works fine on low-latency networks. However, it is very network unfriendly since it requires touching multiple files on the server using windows networking for most operations. This is extremely slow on anything but an intranet. Also, database security is horrible since you need to either give full control to the database files, or manage file level permission for even read only access from the client. If you can live with those risks and more, then VSS is great!

I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon

Jorgen Sigvardsson

We're using CVS at the office. We used to use VSS, but after code got lost in it, we switched over to CVS. With WinCVS I don't see any advantages of VSS over CVS. Combined with SSH, it's possible to work securely from home as well. Whenever subversion and tools become mature enough, I'm considering converting the CVS repository to subversion. Renaming and moval of modules is a real goodie which CVS unfortunately doesn't support. -- Weiter, weiter, ins verderben. Wir müssen leben bis wir sterben. I blog too now[^]

Jorgen Sigvardsson

Unfortunately there's not yet any real GUIs for subversion. Java isn't executing on my machine unless I've got a gun pointed at me. :suss: -- Weiter, weiter, ins verderben. Wir müssen leben bis wir sterben. I blog too now[^]

Nitron

If you're using windows, there's a great source control util called xcopy. :rolleyes: You can use it like this:

C:\Documents and Settings\stormwa>xcopy /?
Copies files and directory trees.

XCOPY source [destination] [/A | /M] [/D[:date]] [/P] [/S [/E]] [/V] [/W]
[/C] [/I] [/Q] [/F] [/L] [/G] [/H] [/R] [/T] [/U]
[/K] [/N] [/O] [/X] [/Y] [/-Y] [/Z]
[/EXCLUDE:file1[+file2][+file3]...]

source Specifies the file(s) to copy.
destination Specifies the location and/or name of new files.
/A Copies only files with the archive attribute set,
doesn't change the attribute.
/M Copies only files with the archive attribute set,
turns off the archive attribute.
/D:m-d-y Copies files changed on or after the specified date.
If no date is given, copies only those files whose
source time is newer than the destination time.
/EXCLUDE:file1[+file2][+file3]...
Specifies a list of files containing strings. Each string
should be in a separate line in the files. When any of the
strings match any part of the absolute path of the file to be
copied, that file will be excluded from being copied. For
example, specifying a string like \obj\ or .obj will exclude
all files underneath the directory obj or all files with the
.obj extension respectively.
/P Prompts you before creating each destination file.
/S Copies directories and subdirectories except empty ones.
/E Copies directories and subdirectories, including empty ones.
Same as /S /E. May be used to modify /T.
/V Verifies each new file.
/W Prompts you to press a key before copying.
/C Continues copying even if errors occur.
/I If destination does not exist and copying more than one file,
assumes that destination must be a directory.
/Q Does not display file names while copying.
/F Displays full source and destination file names while copying.
/L Displays files that would be copied.
/G Allows the copying of encrypted files to destination that does
not support encryption.
/H Copies hidden and