Is MSDN the best doc. ever ?
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I'm surprised that there isn't a single negative reply out of the dozen or so already posted by the time I'm writing this. Especially since the MSDN newsgroup has at least one new thread every week about just how horrible the MSDN docs are and it's the worse POS ever made, etc etc. While I'm personally okay with the *style* of the documentation, I have to agree with the #1 newsgroup complaint--searching sucks. Unless you have the *exact* keyword(s), you'll get endless irrelevant results (same as support.microsoft.com, come to think of it). All the "filter" does is gray out items that aren't part of the subset you've selected. We're talking about the MSDN library, right? :-)
Actually I dont even use SEARCH. I use the INDEX a lot more. But you need to search when you want to lookup a KB article and that's when the search sucks :-( Nish Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain www.busterboy.org If you don't find me on CP, I'll be at Bob's HungOut
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Anyone knows how to upgrade MSDN? Mine is version 6a and for most of the newer API calls I need to refer the online MSDN. Is there some patch that will upgrade my MSDN for me? Nish p.s. I dont have a subscription. we got our MSDN copies [3 of them] all along with our 3 copies of Visual Studio. That too long ago. Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain www.busterboy.org If you don't find me on CP, I'll be at Bob's HungOut
There is no upgrade. You have to purchase the subscription. I couldn't live without my library subscription. I suppose having it on the Net helps but I don't know how you manage without an up-to date CD. I guess even the library version of MSDN costs a fortune in India :-( Michael :-)
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I'm surprised that there isn't a single negative reply out of the dozen or so already posted by the time I'm writing this. Especially since the MSDN newsgroup has at least one new thread every week about just how horrible the MSDN docs are and it's the worse POS ever made, etc etc. While I'm personally okay with the *style* of the documentation, I have to agree with the #1 newsgroup complaint--searching sucks. Unless you have the *exact* keyword(s), you'll get endless irrelevant results (same as support.microsoft.com, come to think of it). All the "filter" does is gray out items that aren't part of the subset you've selected. We're talking about the MSDN library, right? :-)
Yeah, the searching is a real pain in the neck somedays. I've got pretty good at locating stuff though although if I'm trying to read up about something I'm not 100% familiar with it can be a real nightmare. Yesterday I was trying to find out how to catch the filedownload in IE. Took me an age to find something until I caught the Browser Helper Objects keyword. Michael :-)
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There is no upgrade. You have to purchase the subscription. I couldn't live without my library subscription. I suppose having it on the Net helps but I don't know how you manage without an up-to date CD. I guess even the library version of MSDN costs a fortune in India :-( Michael :-)
Yeah it would. Multiply each US dollar with 47 to get the cost in Indian Rupees and then try and map that with this fact - Indian software engineers earn between 8,000 - 15,000 Indian rupees per month Nish Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain www.busterboy.org If you don't find me on CP, I'll be at Bob's HungOut
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Yeah it would. Multiply each US dollar with 47 to get the cost in Indian Rupees and then try and map that with this fact - Indian software engineers earn between 8,000 - 15,000 Indian rupees per month Nish Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain www.busterboy.org If you don't find me on CP, I'll be at Bob's HungOut
Why doesn't the company you work for invest more in development tools? It's been a long time since I've come across a company in the UK who didn't have an up-to-date MSDN subscription. It became one of my standard interview questions, Do you use MSDN. If they don't, I'd probably turn the job down unless they were interested in getting it. If I were you I'd go and demand a bigger monitor and an MSDN subscription right now. :-D Michael :-)
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MSDN is the best documentation for Microsoft specific stuff, period. It's natural that with the size of the thing, some things stay in that are dated, etc. However, it's documentation of standard stuff, such as STL, is pitiful. But then, that's not their job, and any C++ programmer worth anything has Stroustrup on their desk for that, right ? Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
MSDN is super for examples, but I think the Java documentation is slightly better for documenting classes and methods. The Java docs are terrible for examples though, which is really what you end up needing most of the time. I think what MSDN excels at is task-oriented documentation, like "How to change the color of a static control" and things like that. Re Stroustrup: For anything coherent about STL, I sure don't recommend Stroustrup. Josuittis is much better. I also noticed a lot of people recommending Austern, although I don't like his book as much. I'm not down on Stroustrup at all; it's just that I like people to get a good view of STL, and that means steering them toward good resources. CodeGuy The WTL newsgroup: over 1100 members! Be a part of it. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wtl
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Why doesn't the company you work for invest more in development tools? It's been a long time since I've come across a company in the UK who didn't have an up-to-date MSDN subscription. It became one of my standard interview questions, Do you use MSDN. If they don't, I'd probably turn the job down unless they were interested in getting it. If I were you I'd go and demand a bigger monitor and an MSDN subscription right now. :-D Michael :-)
I live/Work in India and my comp. has a universal msdn subscription but even otherwise for companies paying subscription everyyear is still a costly affair. But a medium size company can afford it considering all the ms goodies that come along with the subscription. Cheers Kannan
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I live/Work in India and my comp. has a universal msdn subscription but even otherwise for companies paying subscription everyyear is still a costly affair. But a medium size company can afford it considering all the ms goodies that come along with the subscription. Cheers Kannan
I can't imagine developing without it. I don't see how any company that develops for the Windows platform can do with out it. To me, it is one of the first things that a development team should have. In fact, it was the first purchase I made when I set-up my own company. I could barely afford it but knew that it was an essential purchase. I just made sure that I didn't pay myself a full wage that first month. Michael :-)
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MSDN is super for examples, but I think the Java documentation is slightly better for documenting classes and methods. The Java docs are terrible for examples though, which is really what you end up needing most of the time. I think what MSDN excels at is task-oriented documentation, like "How to change the color of a static control" and things like that. Re Stroustrup: For anything coherent about STL, I sure don't recommend Stroustrup. Josuittis is much better. I also noticed a lot of people recommending Austern, although I don't like his book as much. I'm not down on Stroustrup at all; it's just that I like people to get a good view of STL, and that means steering them toward good resources. CodeGuy The WTL newsgroup: over 1100 members! Be a part of it. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wtl
The one thing I used to get annoyed at was the large number of examples that were for VB only. It seems to have got better for providing good examples in both VB and C++ for the newer technologies. Of course, in a couple of years all the examples will be for C# :-D Michael :-)
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The one thing I used to get annoyed at was the large number of examples that were for VB only. It seems to have got better for providing good examples in both VB and C++ for the newer technologies. Of course, in a couple of years all the examples will be for C# :-D Michael :-)
Converting from VB to C is fairly easy, but the other way round isn't always so. So I don't mind much. Initially all .Net examples were in C# on MSDN and now almost every example given is in Visual Fred (http://www.mvps.org/vb/index2.html?rants/vfred.htm).
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Yeah it would. Multiply each US dollar with 47 to get the cost in Indian Rupees and then try and map that with this fact - Indian software engineers earn between 8,000 - 15,000 Indian rupees per month Nish Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain www.busterboy.org If you don't find me on CP, I'll be at Bob's HungOut
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IMHO, yes! When I document the API functions of my software Crivo I always deliberately copy MSDN style, because I think it rocks! But what do you think ? It's common people saying 'MS does not documment well their API functions', 'The examples are idiot!', 'It' very hard to use', 'The GetWadaWadaName() function documentation sucks'. Why they say this ? Only to attack MS monopoly or because they really don't like MSDN style ? If they don't like it, what do they like ? Ok, maybe I'm not that experienced with other platforms. I never saw a better documentation than MSDN in my whole life. My experience with Sun, Oracle, IBM and Sybase docs are a nightmare! Can someone point me a software documentation better than MSDN ? Of course, don't want you to point me to a 3 page doc about a 5 funcion-point software. Crivo Automated Credit Assessment
MSDN is great, but Borland C++ 3.1 had the best docs I've ever seen. Every single function had a nice example of use. I vote pro drink :beer:
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Yeah it would. Multiply each US dollar with 47 to get the cost in Indian Rupees and then try and map that with this fact - Indian software engineers earn between 8,000 - 15,000 Indian rupees per month Nish Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain www.busterboy.org If you don't find me on CP, I'll be at Bob's HungOut
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Why doesn't the company you work for invest more in development tools? It's been a long time since I've come across a company in the UK who didn't have an up-to-date MSDN subscription. It became one of my standard interview questions, Do you use MSDN. If they don't, I'd probably turn the job down unless they were interested in getting it. If I were you I'd go and demand a bigger monitor and an MSDN subscription right now. :-D Michael :-)
If I were anywhere else but India I'd do that Michael. But not in India. Nish Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain www.busterboy.org If you don't find me on CP, I'll be at Bob's HungOut
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I live/Work in India and my comp. has a universal msdn subscription but even otherwise for companies paying subscription everyyear is still a costly affair. But a medium size company can afford it considering all the ms goodies that come along with the subscription. Cheers Kannan
You sure are lucky Kannan. But then my compoany is a small one, very small one. And the win32 team is just 4 people [me doing vc++, my colleague doing VB/ASP and two others under generic training] everyone else does java and perl and php on Linux. so you can figure out why I wont get msdn in the next 100 years Nish Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain www.busterboy.org If you don't find me on CP, I'll be at Bob's HungOut
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IMHO, yes! When I document the API functions of my software Crivo I always deliberately copy MSDN style, because I think it rocks! But what do you think ? It's common people saying 'MS does not documment well their API functions', 'The examples are idiot!', 'It' very hard to use', 'The GetWadaWadaName() function documentation sucks'. Why they say this ? Only to attack MS monopoly or because they really don't like MSDN style ? If they don't like it, what do they like ? Ok, maybe I'm not that experienced with other platforms. I never saw a better documentation than MSDN in my whole life. My experience with Sun, Oracle, IBM and Sybase docs are a nightmare! Can someone point me a software documentation better than MSDN ? Of course, don't want you to point me to a 3 page doc about a 5 funcion-point software. Crivo Automated Credit Assessment
I just have to say that I found the Sybase docs to be very good, especially their html help file(s). But that's for ASA 6 & 7. Don't know about their other docs. MSDN is great, but sometimes you don't find what your looking for where you expect to find it. like that's never gonna happen. C++: Only friends can see your private parts.
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I can't imagine developing without it. I don't see how any company that develops for the Windows platform can do with out it. To me, it is one of the first things that a development team should have. In fact, it was the first purchase I made when I set-up my own company. I could barely afford it but knew that it was an essential purchase. I just made sure that I didn't pay myself a full wage that first month. Michael :-)
Michael :-) why dont you setup a branch in Trivandrum and make me the Vice President of all your Indian activities ;-) Nish p.s. you could also buy me an msdn subcri and a 19" LCD Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain www.busterboy.org If you don't find me on CP, I'll be at Bob's HungOut
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Mine says moron 713, 717. Both references to management hiring people for peanuts as I recall ( I forget what I was looking up when I spotted this). Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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MSDN is super for examples, but I think the Java documentation is slightly better for documenting classes and methods. The Java docs are terrible for examples though, which is really what you end up needing most of the time. I think what MSDN excels at is task-oriented documentation, like "How to change the color of a static control" and things like that. Re Stroustrup: For anything coherent about STL, I sure don't recommend Stroustrup. Josuittis is much better. I also noticed a lot of people recommending Austern, although I don't like his book as much. I'm not down on Stroustrup at all; it's just that I like people to get a good view of STL, and that means steering them toward good resources. CodeGuy The WTL newsgroup: over 1100 members! Be a part of it. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wtl
CodeGuy wrote: I'm not down on Stroustrup at all; it's just that I like people to get a good view of STL, and that means steering them toward good resources. I agree totally - Stroustrup does provide an overview, but I recommend the Addison Wesley books for *learning* STL. Sorry if I was not clear. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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Mine says moron 713, 717. Both references to management hiring people for peanuts as I recall ( I forget what I was looking up when I spotted this). Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now