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  3. Is MSDN the best doc. ever ?

Is MSDN the best doc. ever ?

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  • M Michael P Butler

    There is no upgrade. You have to purchase the subscription. I couldn't live without my library subscription. I suppose having it on the Net helps but I don't know how you manage without an up-to date CD. I guess even the library version of MSDN costs a fortune in India :-( Michael :-)

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    Nish Nishant
    wrote on last edited by
    #14

    Yeah it would. Multiply each US dollar with 47 to get the cost in Indian Rupees and then try and map that with this fact - Indian software engineers earn between 8,000 - 15,000 Indian rupees per month Nish Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain www.busterboy.org If you don't find me on CP, I'll be at Bob's HungOut

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    • N Nish Nishant

      Yeah it would. Multiply each US dollar with 47 to get the cost in Indian Rupees and then try and map that with this fact - Indian software engineers earn between 8,000 - 15,000 Indian rupees per month Nish Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain www.busterboy.org If you don't find me on CP, I'll be at Bob's HungOut

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      Michael P Butler
      wrote on last edited by
      #15

      Why doesn't the company you work for invest more in development tools? It's been a long time since I've come across a company in the UK who didn't have an up-to-date MSDN subscription. It became one of my standard interview questions, Do you use MSDN. If they don't, I'd probably turn the job down unless they were interested in getting it. If I were you I'd go and demand a bigger monitor and an MSDN subscription right now. :-D Michael :-)

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      • C Christian Graus

        MSDN is the best documentation for Microsoft specific stuff, period. It's natural that with the size of the thing, some things stay in that are dated, etc. However, it's documentation of standard stuff, such as STL, is pitiful. But then, that's not their job, and any C++ programmer worth anything has Stroustrup on their desk for that, right ? Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001

        Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz

        I live in Bob's HungOut now

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        CodeGuy
        wrote on last edited by
        #16

        MSDN is super for examples, but I think the Java documentation is slightly better for documenting classes and methods. The Java docs are terrible for examples though, which is really what you end up needing most of the time. I think what MSDN excels at is task-oriented documentation, like "How to change the color of a static control" and things like that. Re Stroustrup: For anything coherent about STL, I sure don't recommend Stroustrup. Josuittis is much better. I also noticed a lot of people recommending Austern, although I don't like his book as much. I'm not down on Stroustrup at all; it's just that I like people to get a good view of STL, and that means steering them toward good resources. CodeGuy The WTL newsgroup: over 1100 members! Be a part of it. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wtl

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        • M Michael P Butler

          Why doesn't the company you work for invest more in development tools? It's been a long time since I've come across a company in the UK who didn't have an up-to-date MSDN subscription. It became one of my standard interview questions, Do you use MSDN. If they don't, I'd probably turn the job down unless they were interested in getting it. If I were you I'd go and demand a bigger monitor and an MSDN subscription right now. :-D Michael :-)

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          Kannan Kalyanaraman
          wrote on last edited by
          #17

          I live/Work in India and my comp. has a universal msdn subscription but even otherwise for companies paying subscription everyyear is still a costly affair. But a medium size company can afford it considering all the ms goodies that come along with the subscription. Cheers Kannan

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          • K Kannan Kalyanaraman

            I live/Work in India and my comp. has a universal msdn subscription but even otherwise for companies paying subscription everyyear is still a costly affair. But a medium size company can afford it considering all the ms goodies that come along with the subscription. Cheers Kannan

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            Michael P Butler
            wrote on last edited by
            #18

            I can't imagine developing without it. I don't see how any company that develops for the Windows platform can do with out it. To me, it is one of the first things that a development team should have. In fact, it was the first purchase I made when I set-up my own company. I could barely afford it but knew that it was an essential purchase. I just made sure that I didn't pay myself a full wage that first month. Michael :-)

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            • C CodeGuy

              MSDN is super for examples, but I think the Java documentation is slightly better for documenting classes and methods. The Java docs are terrible for examples though, which is really what you end up needing most of the time. I think what MSDN excels at is task-oriented documentation, like "How to change the color of a static control" and things like that. Re Stroustrup: For anything coherent about STL, I sure don't recommend Stroustrup. Josuittis is much better. I also noticed a lot of people recommending Austern, although I don't like his book as much. I'm not down on Stroustrup at all; it's just that I like people to get a good view of STL, and that means steering them toward good resources. CodeGuy The WTL newsgroup: over 1100 members! Be a part of it. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wtl

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              Michael P Butler
              wrote on last edited by
              #19

              The one thing I used to get annoyed at was the large number of examples that were for VB only. It seems to have got better for providing good examples in both VB and C++ for the newer technologies. Of course, in a couple of years all the examples will be for C# :-D Michael :-)

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              • M Michael P Butler

                The one thing I used to get annoyed at was the large number of examples that were for VB only. It seems to have got better for providing good examples in both VB and C++ for the newer technologies. Of course, in a couple of years all the examples will be for C# :-D Michael :-)

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                jkgh
                wrote on last edited by
                #20

                Converting from VB to C is fairly easy, but the other way round isn't always so. So I don't mind much. Initially all .Net examples were in C# on MSDN and now almost every example given is in Visual Fred (http://www.mvps.org/vb/index2.html?rants/vfred.htm).

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                • N Nish Nishant

                  Yeah it would. Multiply each US dollar with 47 to get the cost in Indian Rupees and then try and map that with this fact - Indian software engineers earn between 8,000 - 15,000 Indian rupees per month Nish Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain www.busterboy.org If you don't find me on CP, I'll be at Bob's HungOut

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                  jkgh
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #21

                  .. but a single library subscription $200 can be used by your whole company I think. I can't remember if you are allowed to install it at home.

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                  • D Daniel Turini

                    IMHO, yes! When I document the API functions of my software Crivo I always deliberately copy MSDN style, because I think it rocks! But what do you think ? It's common people saying 'MS does not documment well their API functions', 'The examples are idiot!', 'It' very hard to use', 'The GetWadaWadaName() function documentation sucks'. Why they say this ? Only to attack MS monopoly or because they really don't like MSDN style ? If they don't like it, what do they like ? Ok, maybe I'm not that experienced with other platforms. I never saw a better documentation than MSDN in my whole life. My experience with Sun, Oracle, IBM and Sybase docs are a nightmare! Can someone point me a software documentation better than MSDN ? Of course, don't want you to point me to a 3 page doc about a 5 funcion-point software. Crivo Automated Credit Assessment

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                    Nemanja Trifunovic
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #22

                    MSDN is great, but Borland C++ 3.1 had the best docs I've ever seen. Every single function had a nice example of use. I vote pro drink :beer:

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                    • N Nish Nishant

                      Yeah it would. Multiply each US dollar with 47 to get the cost in Indian Rupees and then try and map that with this fact - Indian software engineers earn between 8,000 - 15,000 Indian rupees per month Nish Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain www.busterboy.org If you don't find me on CP, I'll be at Bob's HungOut

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                      rcVu
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #23

                      If your company pays for one licence of the msdn lybrary they can install it on anyone on your company without paying extra for it. They changed the licenge agrement to this a while ago. Rodrigo.

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                      • M Michael P Butler

                        Why doesn't the company you work for invest more in development tools? It's been a long time since I've come across a company in the UK who didn't have an up-to-date MSDN subscription. It became one of my standard interview questions, Do you use MSDN. If they don't, I'd probably turn the job down unless they were interested in getting it. If I were you I'd go and demand a bigger monitor and an MSDN subscription right now. :-D Michael :-)

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                        Nish Nishant
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #24

                        If I were anywhere else but India I'd do that Michael. But not in India. Nish Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain www.busterboy.org If you don't find me on CP, I'll be at Bob's HungOut

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                        • K Kannan Kalyanaraman

                          I live/Work in India and my comp. has a universal msdn subscription but even otherwise for companies paying subscription everyyear is still a costly affair. But a medium size company can afford it considering all the ms goodies that come along with the subscription. Cheers Kannan

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                          Nish Nishant
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #25

                          You sure are lucky Kannan. But then my compoany is a small one, very small one. And the win32 team is just 4 people [me doing vc++, my colleague doing VB/ASP and two others under generic training] everyone else does java and perl and php on Linux. so you can figure out why I wont get msdn in the next 100 years Nish Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain www.busterboy.org If you don't find me on CP, I'll be at Bob's HungOut

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                          • D Daniel Turini

                            IMHO, yes! When I document the API functions of my software Crivo I always deliberately copy MSDN style, because I think it rocks! But what do you think ? It's common people saying 'MS does not documment well their API functions', 'The examples are idiot!', 'It' very hard to use', 'The GetWadaWadaName() function documentation sucks'. Why they say this ? Only to attack MS monopoly or because they really don't like MSDN style ? If they don't like it, what do they like ? Ok, maybe I'm not that experienced with other platforms. I never saw a better documentation than MSDN in my whole life. My experience with Sun, Oracle, IBM and Sybase docs are a nightmare! Can someone point me a software documentation better than MSDN ? Of course, don't want you to point me to a 3 page doc about a 5 funcion-point software. Crivo Automated Credit Assessment

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                            Wes Jones
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #26

                            I just have to say that I found the Sybase docs to be very good, especially their html help file(s). But that's for ASA 6 & 7. Don't know about their other docs. MSDN is great, but sometimes you don't find what your looking for where you expect to find it. like that's never gonna happen. C++: Only friends can see your private parts.

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                            • M Michael P Butler

                              I can't imagine developing without it. I don't see how any company that develops for the Windows platform can do with out it. To me, it is one of the first things that a development team should have. In fact, it was the first purchase I made when I set-up my own company. I could barely afford it but knew that it was an essential purchase. I just made sure that I didn't pay myself a full wage that first month. Michael :-)

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                              Nish Nishant
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #27

                              Michael :-) why dont you setup a branch in Trivandrum and make me the Vice President of all your Indian activities ;-) Nish p.s. you could also buy me an msdn subcri and a 19" LCD Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain www.busterboy.org If you don't find me on CP, I'll be at Bob's HungOut

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                              • J jkgh

                                Mine says: Moron(s), see Bibliography pp 682. But perhaps I have an earlier edition.

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                                Christian Graus
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #28

                                Mine says moron 713, 717. Both references to management hiring people for peanuts as I recall ( I forget what I was looking up when I spotted this). Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001

                                Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz

                                I live in Bob's HungOut now

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                                • C CodeGuy

                                  MSDN is super for examples, but I think the Java documentation is slightly better for documenting classes and methods. The Java docs are terrible for examples though, which is really what you end up needing most of the time. I think what MSDN excels at is task-oriented documentation, like "How to change the color of a static control" and things like that. Re Stroustrup: For anything coherent about STL, I sure don't recommend Stroustrup. Josuittis is much better. I also noticed a lot of people recommending Austern, although I don't like his book as much. I'm not down on Stroustrup at all; it's just that I like people to get a good view of STL, and that means steering them toward good resources. CodeGuy The WTL newsgroup: over 1100 members! Be a part of it. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wtl

                                  C Offline
                                  C Offline
                                  Christian Graus
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #29

                                  CodeGuy wrote: I'm not down on Stroustrup at all; it's just that I like people to get a good view of STL, and that means steering them toward good resources. I agree totally - Stroustrup does provide an overview, but I recommend the Addison Wesley books for *learning* STL. Sorry if I was not clear. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001

                                  Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz

                                  I live in Bob's HungOut now

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                                  • C Christian Graus

                                    Mine says moron 713, 717. Both references to management hiring people for peanuts as I recall ( I forget what I was looking up when I spotted this). Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001

                                    Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz

                                    I live in Bob's HungOut now

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                                    J Offline
                                    jkgh
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #30

                                    Me: "ooo oooo oooo" {monkey-type noises}

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                                    • J jkgh

                                      Me: "ooo oooo oooo" {monkey-type noises}

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                                      Christian Graus
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #31

                                      You might want to read the quote first :-) Stroustrup essentially ( and this is from memory ) says that hiring people for peanuts means you end up surrounded by idiots. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001

                                      Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz

                                      I live in Bob's HungOut now

                                      J 1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • C Christian Graus

                                        You might want to read the quote first :-) Stroustrup essentially ( and this is from memory ) says that hiring people for peanuts means you end up surrounded by idiots. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001

                                        Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz

                                        I live in Bob's HungOut now

                                        J Offline
                                        J Offline
                                        jkgh
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #32

                                        "If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys" is a proverb as old as the hills. Y'man's just toned it down a little.

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