Dude, Did I Steal Your Job? Debugging Indian Computer Programmers
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do they get jokes too? ;) bryce --- To paraphrase Fred Dagg - the views expressed in this post are bloody good ones. --
Publitor, making Pubmed easy. http://www.sohocode.com/publitorOur kids book :The Snot Goblin
bryce wrote: do they get jokes too? :-) Yeah, but sometimes they override it so they can say something they've been itching to say even if it's slightly off-content ;-)
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
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bryce wrote: do they get jokes too? :-) Yeah, but sometimes they override it so they can say something they've been itching to say even if it's slightly off-content ;-)
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
troublemaker Bryce:laugh: --- To paraphrase Fred Dagg - the views expressed in this post are bloody good ones. --
Publitor, making Pubmed easy. http://www.sohocode.com/publitorOur kids book :The Snot Goblin
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troublemaker Bryce:laugh: --- To paraphrase Fred Dagg - the views expressed in this post are bloody good ones. --
Publitor, making Pubmed easy. http://www.sohocode.com/publitorOur kids book :The Snot Goblin
:-D
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
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Nishant S wrote: The average Indian coder would obviously have a poorer command over English than the average Aussie coder, and lets assume that the average Indian coder is not as good as the average Aussie coder. oh i dunno Nish, those ockers don't seem to be too sharp on the olde queen's english "streewwwth mayyte dat poiwter eint naaall" Bryce --- To paraphrase Fred Dagg - the views expressed in this post are bloody good ones. --
Publitor, making Pubmed easy. http://www.sohocode.com/publitorOur kids book :The Snot Goblin
At least we know how to pronounce "fish and chips" and don't get giggled at everytime we say "six" :P cheers, Chris Maunder
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At least we know how to pronounce "fish and chips" and don't get giggled at everytime we say "six" :P cheers, Chris Maunder
You do in civilized countries. Bryce p.s. good game of cricket the other day, wasn't it. ;) --- To paraphrase Fred Dagg - the views expressed in this post are bloody good ones. --
Publitor, making Pubmed easy. http://www.sohocode.com/publitorOur kids book :The Snot Goblin
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Nishant S wrote: The average Indian coder would obviously have a poorer command over English than the average Aussie coder, and lets assume that the average Indian coder is not as good as the average Aussie coder. oh i dunno Nish, those ockers don't seem to be too sharp on the olde queen's english "streewwwth mayyte dat poiwter eint naaall" Bryce --- To paraphrase Fred Dagg - the views expressed in this post are bloody good ones. --
Publitor, making Pubmed easy. http://www.sohocode.com/publitorOur kids book :The Snot Goblin
bryce wrote: oh i dunno Nish, those ockers don't seem to be too sharp on the olde queen's english Is your shift key not working? Or, should I assume that your written English is just poor quality?
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Christian Graus wrote: However, we have won some work, because our work is to a higher standard ( so they tell me ), and we're able to speak and understand English better ( again, so they are telling us ) The average Indian coder would obviously have a poorer command over English than the average Aussie coder, and lets assume that the average Indian coder is not as good as the average Aussie coder. But I honestly think that about 10% of Indian coders are as good or better than about 70% of Aussie coders and probably speak/use the same level of English (leaving aside the local slang which won't affect IT related work). Now because of India's massive population, 10% of Indian coders would be numerically many times more than 30% of Aussie coders. That's why Indians end up getting a lot of outsourced work. To put things clearer :- Assume India's % of good coders is 10% and Australia's is 30%. Now Aus might have 200 programmers - thus there will be 60 good coders in Australia. India will have 2000 programmers - thus there will be 200 good coders in India - more than 3 times the number of good coders in Aus. BTW the above is my theory - no insult is meant to either Aussies or Indians or anyone else related to Aussies or Indians. Egoistically speaking, Nish and CG are pretty cool coders irrespective of their Aussiness or Indianhood :-D
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
Nishant S wrote: Now because of India's massive population But I thought most of India was really poor and illiterate ? That's what World Vision keeps telling me. I've been astounde of late to bid $500 on a job my work would do for local clients at $20,000, and have people come back to say we're the best bidder, but everyone else is $200-$350, can we move. Who cares about $150 when you need this sort of work done ? It scares me. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
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You do in civilized countries. Bryce p.s. good game of cricket the other day, wasn't it. ;) --- To paraphrase Fred Dagg - the views expressed in this post are bloody good ones. --
Publitor, making Pubmed easy. http://www.sohocode.com/publitorOur kids book :The Snot Goblin
bryce, are u a KIWI It is by Acts and not by ideas that people live**-- Anatole France** My Articles
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I've recently looked at some rentacoder work, and it's amazing how cheap these guys work for. The amount that some of these jobs go for equates to $5-$20 dollars a day, as far as I can see. No wonder people are upset. However, we have won some work, because our work is to a higher standard ( so they tell me ), and we're able to speak and understand English better ( again, so they are telling us ) Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
So have you regret not voting for Kerry? :-D Weiye Chen Life is hard, yet we are made of flesh...
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Nishant S wrote: Now because of India's massive population But I thought most of India was really poor and illiterate ? That's what World Vision keeps telling me. I've been astounde of late to bid $500 on a job my work would do for local clients at $20,000, and have people come back to say we're the best bidder, but everyone else is $200-$350, can we move. Who cares about $150 when you need this sort of work done ? It scares me. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
I've hit the same problems. What I did find out though, is that RAC usually leads to full local type money after you do a good job for someone. I have converted several people from there to my full time hourly charge once they see that decent software costs decent money. I have made a TON of money fixing stuff for people that come to me off RAC and say they got a crappy job done or an unfinished product there please help also. I think that many people fail to realize that the good off shore coders be they Indian or not still make a lot more than RAC and aren't on there. Having said that, there are several companies on RAC that seem to do a very good job, but if you look at their history, they usually only take well paying jobs.
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I've recently looked at some rentacoder work, and it's amazing how cheap these guys work for. The amount that some of these jobs go for equates to $5-$20 dollars a day, as far as I can see. No wonder people are upset. However, we have won some work, because our work is to a higher standard ( so they tell me ), and we're able to speak and understand English better ( again, so they are telling us ) Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
Christian Graus wrote: I've recently looked at some rentacoder work, and it's amazing how cheap these guys work for. Unreal isn't it? I initially got excited when I saw a warehouse/distribution system that needed coding because I'm one of those weird folks that enjoys invoicing/order entry/receiving/... over graphical programming so it's an industry I know like the back of my hand; especially advanced areas like demand forecasting and such. Get this: The gig is 160 days (almost 6 months) and ... $3,000 USD, which comes out to less than $19 a day. Cheers, Tom Archer "Use what talents you possess. The woods would be very silent if no birds sang there except those that sang best." - William Blake * Inside C# -Second Edition * Visual C++.NET Bible * Extending MFC Applications with the .NET Framework
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Shog9 wrote: Still... Nishant S... N Sivakumar... sounds like a secret life to me... :-) Maybe I should sue him for using my name to sell his book ;-) Nish
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
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Christian Graus wrote: However, we have won some work, because our work is to a higher standard ( so they tell me ), and we're able to speak and understand English better ( again, so they are telling us ) The average Indian coder would obviously have a poorer command over English than the average Aussie coder, and lets assume that the average Indian coder is not as good as the average Aussie coder. But I honestly think that about 10% of Indian coders are as good or better than about 70% of Aussie coders and probably speak/use the same level of English (leaving aside the local slang which won't affect IT related work). Now because of India's massive population, 10% of Indian coders would be numerically many times more than 30% of Aussie coders. That's why Indians end up getting a lot of outsourced work. To put things clearer :- Assume India's % of good coders is 10% and Australia's is 30%. Now Aus might have 200 programmers - thus there will be 60 good coders in Australia. India will have 2000 programmers - thus there will be 200 good coders in India - more than 3 times the number of good coders in Aus. BTW the above is my theory - no insult is meant to either Aussies or Indians or anyone else related to Aussies or Indians. Egoistically speaking, Nish and CG are pretty cool coders irrespective of their Aussiness or Indianhood :-D
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog); My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
Nishant S wrote: Now because of India's massive population, 10% of Indian coders would be numerically many times more than 30% of Aussie coders. That's why Indians end up getting a lot of outsourced work. To put things clearer :- Assume India's % of good coders is 10% and Australia's is 30%. Now Aus might have 200 programmers - thus there will be 60 good coders in Australia. India will have 2000 programmers - thus there will be 200 good coders in India - more than 3 times the number of good coders in Aus. You also have to take into account how well you can sort the good ones from the bad ones. You may not have control over this, or you might not be good at making a distinction. This is important because a good coder is significantly better than an average or bad coder. In fact, a bad coder can actually be worse than nothing. (I used to work with a guy who knew enough to be dangerous, but not good enough to be useful.) A high proportion of bad coders end up being landmines for the outsourcing trend because they offset the work done by the good ones. Thus, a software company with 10% good programmers is significantly worse than a software company with 30% good programmers. (Your argument, on the otherhand, relies on absolute numbers of good programmers without taking into account that the proportion plays a role as well.) ----------------------------------------------------- Empires Of Steel[^]
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Christian Graus wrote: I've recently looked at some rentacoder work, and it's amazing how cheap these guys work for. Unreal isn't it? I initially got excited when I saw a warehouse/distribution system that needed coding because I'm one of those weird folks that enjoys invoicing/order entry/receiving/... over graphical programming so it's an industry I know like the back of my hand; especially advanced areas like demand forecasting and such. Get this: The gig is 160 days (almost 6 months) and ... $3,000 USD, which comes out to less than $19 a day. Cheers, Tom Archer "Use what talents you possess. The woods would be very silent if no birds sang there except those that sang best." - William Blake * Inside C# -Second Edition * Visual C++.NET Bible * Extending MFC Applications with the .NET Framework
Yeah, I've seen those jobs. McDonalds pays more than that. I've concluded that the only way to make money is find a $5,000+ job that is worth $5,000k. The rest is useless. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer