C# Or Visual C?
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Hello, I'm a hobby programmer, I'm 18 and I've been programming for the past 4 years or so. I started out with Turbo Pascal 7 on dos, then moved to linux and c, and now I have a growing interest in windows programming (i've since abandoned linux as a desktop os and moved to win2k/xp). Unfortuneatly I'm not quite sure where to begin programming on windows. I've used visual c++ 6 to make a few programs, just some simple dialog apps and an SDI app or too. Nothing overly complicated. However C# has made me curious. I like the idea of a language that has the power of c++ and ease of use of vb however I'd like to learn what's going on "under the hood" of windows. I find the biggest problem I have when I'm trying to accomplish something in VC++ is the task seems to be trivial but I have no idea of exactly what I'm looking for so I spend more time trying to find an example of some sort and when I finally do, it usually doesn't work (I find unless you know what your doing the MSDN is rather useless, and I don't know what I'm doing most of time :)). So my question is what would be better to begin learning? Visual C++ or C#? Joseph LeBlanc,
Tough question. C# has been around for less than a year (roughly, whatever). But C++ has been around for 22 years. The amount of info available on C++ is many times what you'll find with C#. If you try C#, you'll be learning it at the same time as everyone else in the world. The learning curve for C# may or may not be shorter than that for C++... I have O'Reilly's "C# Essentials" in front of me right now and I'm not convinced it's much simpler than C++. -c
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Hello, I'm a hobby programmer, I'm 18 and I've been programming for the past 4 years or so. I started out with Turbo Pascal 7 on dos, then moved to linux and c, and now I have a growing interest in windows programming (i've since abandoned linux as a desktop os and moved to win2k/xp). Unfortuneatly I'm not quite sure where to begin programming on windows. I've used visual c++ 6 to make a few programs, just some simple dialog apps and an SDI app or too. Nothing overly complicated. However C# has made me curious. I like the idea of a language that has the power of c++ and ease of use of vb however I'd like to learn what's going on "under the hood" of windows. I find the biggest problem I have when I'm trying to accomplish something in VC++ is the task seems to be trivial but I have no idea of exactly what I'm looking for so I spend more time trying to find an example of some sort and when I finally do, it usually doesn't work (I find unless you know what your doing the MSDN is rather useless, and I don't know what I'm doing most of time :)). So my question is what would be better to begin learning? Visual C++ or C#? Joseph LeBlanc,
Hello First of you are not just a Hobby Programmer but you are a Real Hobby Programmer because you are using real languages. I think its useful to have two programming Skill sets, so if possible, and you seem interested why not have both the skills of C++ and C#. Plus keeping your C skills up to date is not a bad idea. I believe learning about what is going on under the hood will be more difficult with C# than with C++, however predictably there will be more employment opportunities in the near future for C# than C++. But as an example the DocView architecture that the VC++ wizards create for you is an incredibly large amount of backend code, whilst many programmers use it, I doubt many programmerws fully understand it. They just use the parts of it they need and undestand what they need. A big factor in OOP is reusibility and if we want to get thinks developed fast using reusibility we jsut have to accept that other code does work. I'm not suggesting that you should never examine the internals of MFC or other 3rd party Code whether out of interest or for higher learning, but I am suggesting that we must accept that other code does in fact work. Just my 2 cents. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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Tough question. C# has been around for less than a year (roughly, whatever). But C++ has been around for 22 years. The amount of info available on C++ is many times what you'll find with C#. If you try C#, you'll be learning it at the same time as everyone else in the world. The learning curve for C# may or may not be shorter than that for C++... I have O'Reilly's "C# Essentials" in front of me right now and I'm not convinced it's much simpler than C++. -c
Chris Losinger wrote: C# has been around for less than a year (roughly, whatever). But C++ has been around for 22 years. "I know a guy who has a car that is about 25 years old. It does not go anymore. My one year old car goes just fine. Age does not mean anything." :-D I could say that was an ancient chinese proverb, but that would be a lie... regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
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Paul Watson wrote: You have confused me thoroughly... excellent. ;) Well, I mostly just want to be able to write windows applications that can actually do stuff, like play with COM, networking, or anything else cool but I also want to be able to really play with the OS. I don't really like VB because it hides away too much of what's going on. So I guess I want a little bit of both worlds :) Joseph LeBlanc
Since you're 18 and like programming, you probably want to pursue it as a career. You can make applications that do any of the things that you want with either C# or C++ (except you can't really play with COM with C#, but the CLR does the things that COM does in different ways). The .net platform is MS's target programming environment for the foreseeable future, it is where they will be placing their focus and $$$. Corporate and private shops will make the switch, it is even rumored that the .net framework is in w2k sp3, the next os releases will definitely include it. There will be work for both platforms (managed vs. unmanaged code) for many years yet, but it will probably become easier to stay employed by focusing on C#. __ One important thing: It doesn't really matter what language you choose. The larger issues with professional programming have to do with design. Learn Object Oriented Design. Learn the basics about more than one modeling language (start with UML). Learn to code to popular coding standards. The language is job skills 101, the more advanced topics are what will really make you a professional. -John
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Chris Losinger wrote: C# has been around for less than a year (roughly, whatever). But C++ has been around for 22 years. "I know a guy who has a car that is about 25 years old. It does not go anymore. My one year old car goes just fine. Age does not mean anything." :-D I could say that was an ancient chinese proverb, but that would be a lie... regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
Paul Watson wrote: Age does not mean anything." I guess Chris was referring to the amount of resources that are built over the last 22 years or so in C++. // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
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Paul Watson wrote: Age does not mean anything." I guess Chris was referring to the amount of resources that are built over the last 22 years or so in C++. // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
Fazlul Kabir wrote: Paul Watson wrote: Age does not mean anything." I guess Chris was referring to the amount of resources that are built over the last 22 years or so in C++. *throws my hands up in the air* I should have put a more explicit humour alert in my post than the chinese proverb bit. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
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Tough question. C# has been around for less than a year (roughly, whatever). But C++ has been around for 22 years. The amount of info available on C++ is many times what you'll find with C#. If you try C#, you'll be learning it at the same time as everyone else in the world. The learning curve for C# may or may not be shorter than that for C++... I have O'Reilly's "C# Essentials" in front of me right now and I'm not convinced it's much simpler than C++. -c
Chris Losinger wrote: If you try C#, you'll be learning it at the same time as everyone else in the world. That I think is definitely a reason to begin with C#. Chris Losinger wrote: The learning curve for C# may or may not be shorter than that for C++... I have O'Reilly's "C# Essentials" in front of me right now and I'm not convinced it's much simpler than C++. Well it's not really the *language* that I'm concerned with, it's more the method of programming. I like the developement environment of vb and delphi, where you access all the properties of an object by .property to change. Making setting the text on a label as easy as Label1.Caption="label caption". Isn't C# supposed to provide an environment similar to that only provide the same programming power/functionality of C++? I have used C++ before (I'm far from being a guru) and I found learning it wasn't very difficult. Joseph LeBlanc
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Chris Losinger wrote: If you try C#, you'll be learning it at the same time as everyone else in the world. That I think is definitely a reason to begin with C#. Chris Losinger wrote: The learning curve for C# may or may not be shorter than that for C++... I have O'Reilly's "C# Essentials" in front of me right now and I'm not convinced it's much simpler than C++. Well it's not really the *language* that I'm concerned with, it's more the method of programming. I like the developement environment of vb and delphi, where you access all the properties of an object by .property to change. Making setting the text on a label as easy as Label1.Caption="label caption". Isn't C# supposed to provide an environment similar to that only provide the same programming power/functionality of C++? I have used C++ before (I'm far from being a guru) and I found learning it wasn't very difficult. Joseph LeBlanc
Joseph LeBlanc wrote: Well it's not really the *language* that I'm concerned with, it's more the method of programming. I like the developement environment of vb and delphi, where you access all the properties of an object by .property to change. Making setting the text on a label as easy as Label1.Caption="label caption". The .property way (aka Delphi/VB way ) of programming is not specific to C# language. You can perfectly have that feature, including other RAD (Rapid Application Development) /CBD (Component Based Development) features in C++ too. Check Capitolsoft's RadVC and Borland's C++ Builder for proof. // Fazlul
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Hello, I'm a hobby programmer, I'm 18 and I've been programming for the past 4 years or so. I started out with Turbo Pascal 7 on dos, then moved to linux and c, and now I have a growing interest in windows programming (i've since abandoned linux as a desktop os and moved to win2k/xp). Unfortuneatly I'm not quite sure where to begin programming on windows. I've used visual c++ 6 to make a few programs, just some simple dialog apps and an SDI app or too. Nothing overly complicated. However C# has made me curious. I like the idea of a language that has the power of c++ and ease of use of vb however I'd like to learn what's going on "under the hood" of windows. I find the biggest problem I have when I'm trying to accomplish something in VC++ is the task seems to be trivial but I have no idea of exactly what I'm looking for so I spend more time trying to find an example of some sort and when I finally do, it usually doesn't work (I find unless you know what your doing the MSDN is rather useless, and I don't know what I'm doing most of time :)). So my question is what would be better to begin learning? Visual C++ or C#? Joseph LeBlanc,
I'm a C# language guy, so my advice won't be impartial (though I was a C++ guy for years before that). I think C# is a lot easier to learn than C++. While C# is simpler than C++ from a language perspective, it's still a fairly complex language (though you don't have to learn things like templates). It's a bit more regular and consistent than C++, as well. I think the big reason to choose C# is that the libraries are a lot easier to learn. The .NET frameworks will do most of what you want to do, and if you learn how one works, it's easy to apply that elsewhere. That's not true in the C++ world; the C runtime library does things differently than the C++ library, which does things differently than MFC, ATL, etc. If you're serious about being a programmer, it's really a question of what language you learn *first*. Different languages are different tools, and are good at different things. If you can afford it, I'd suggest getting a copy of VS.NET. It makes doing coding in C# a whole lot nicer. If that's not practical, there are some freeware environments out there that also do C# stuff, and the C# compiler comes free with the frameworks. Hope this helps... Eric Gunnerson, C# Program Manager, very happy to have shipped.
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At the end of the day C# remains an unproven entity. Your best bet is to learn C++, for starters because of the body of free resources you can get your hands on, and keep a door open for C#, in case M$ manages to kill C++, which I am sure is their aim, but I doubt will happen in the foreseeable future. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
****Christian Graus wrote: M$ manages to kill C++, which I am sure is their aim Here comes the conspiracy theory, again.. // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
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Hello, I'm a hobby programmer, I'm 18 and I've been programming for the past 4 years or so. I started out with Turbo Pascal 7 on dos, then moved to linux and c, and now I have a growing interest in windows programming (i've since abandoned linux as a desktop os and moved to win2k/xp). Unfortuneatly I'm not quite sure where to begin programming on windows. I've used visual c++ 6 to make a few programs, just some simple dialog apps and an SDI app or too. Nothing overly complicated. However C# has made me curious. I like the idea of a language that has the power of c++ and ease of use of vb however I'd like to learn what's going on "under the hood" of windows. I find the biggest problem I have when I'm trying to accomplish something in VC++ is the task seems to be trivial but I have no idea of exactly what I'm looking for so I spend more time trying to find an example of some sort and when I finally do, it usually doesn't work (I find unless you know what your doing the MSDN is rather useless, and I don't know what I'm doing most of time :)). So my question is what would be better to begin learning? Visual C++ or C#? Joseph LeBlanc,
At the end of the day C# remains an unproven entity. Your best bet is to learn C++, for starters because of the body of free resources you can get your hands on, and keep a door open for C#, in case M$ manages to kill C++, which I am sure is their aim, but I doubt will happen in the foreseeable future. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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I'm a C# language guy, so my advice won't be impartial (though I was a C++ guy for years before that). I think C# is a lot easier to learn than C++. While C# is simpler than C++ from a language perspective, it's still a fairly complex language (though you don't have to learn things like templates). It's a bit more regular and consistent than C++, as well. I think the big reason to choose C# is that the libraries are a lot easier to learn. The .NET frameworks will do most of what you want to do, and if you learn how one works, it's easy to apply that elsewhere. That's not true in the C++ world; the C runtime library does things differently than the C++ library, which does things differently than MFC, ATL, etc. If you're serious about being a programmer, it's really a question of what language you learn *first*. Different languages are different tools, and are good at different things. If you can afford it, I'd suggest getting a copy of VS.NET. It makes doing coding in C# a whole lot nicer. If that's not practical, there are some freeware environments out there that also do C# stuff, and the C# compiler comes free with the frameworks. Hope this helps... Eric Gunnerson, C# Program Manager, very happy to have shipped.
If you can afford it, I'd suggest getting a copy of VS.NET. DOH! Insert shameless Microsoft plug here!!! :) Brigg Thorp Software Engineer Timex Corporation
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At the end of the day C# remains an unproven entity. Your best bet is to learn C++, for starters because of the body of free resources you can get your hands on, and keep a door open for C#, in case M$ manages to kill C++, which I am sure is their aim, but I doubt will happen in the foreseeable future. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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Joseph LeBlanc wrote: Well it's not really the *language* that I'm concerned with, it's more the method of programming. I like the developement environment of vb and delphi, where you access all the properties of an object by .property to change. Making setting the text on a label as easy as Label1.Caption="label caption". The .property way (aka Delphi/VB way ) of programming is not specific to C# language. You can perfectly have that feature, including other RAD (Rapid Application Development) /CBD (Component Based Development) features in C++ too. Check Capitolsoft's RadVC and Borland's C++ Builder for proof. // Fazlul
Fazlul Kabir wrote: The .property way (aka Delphi/VB way ) of programming is not specific to C# language. You can perfectly have that feature, including other RAD (Rapid Application Development) /CBD (Component Based Development) features in C++ too. Check Capitolsoft's RadVC and Borland's C++ Builder for proof. How widely used are these tools though compared to Microsofts? Looking at this from a career point of view, would it be better to learn to use Microsoft tools (if they are the defacto-standard)? Or is this not really an issue? Joseph LeBlanc
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>>in case M$ manages to kill C++<< I doubt that. Microsoft has one of the most popular implementations of C++. Get rid of that and I'm sure they'll have a lot of unhappy developers on their hands.
VisualSee wrote: >>in case M$ manages to kill C++<< I doubt that. Microsoft has one of the most popular implementations of C++. Get rid of that and I'm sure they'll have a lot of unhappy developers on their hands. You're living in a fantasy. Here are the facts. 1/ Microsoft has one of the WORST C++ compilers in terms of compliance with the standard 2/ Microsoft are releasing a new language, which no-one actually *needs*, after losing a court case with Sun and thus no longer shipping Java 3/ Microsoft is in pursuit of monopoly. 4/ They have hired a guy known in the C++ world to 'oversee' standards conformance, and he is writing books on C# and taking the road to train people in C#. It's clear they are making an each way bet, but the future is C#, baby. No more annoying cross platform apps, no more annoying standards that they cannot conform to, and change will be gradual. Already the most lemming like developers are ditching C++, more will follow. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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At the end of the day C# remains an unproven entity. Your best bet is to learn C++, for starters because of the body of free resources you can get your hands on, and keep a door open for C#, in case M$ manages to kill C++, which I am sure is their aim, but I doubt will happen in the foreseeable future. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
****Christian Graus wrote: in case M$ manages to kill C++, which I am sure is their aim, :suss: And what are they going to use to make next Windows, Office, IE, etc? Even .Net was coded with C++. I vote pro drink :beer:
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****Christian Graus wrote: in case M$ manages to kill C++, which I am sure is their aim, :suss: And what are they going to use to make next Windows, Office, IE, etc? Even .Net was coded with C++. I vote pro drink :beer:
The point is not what THEY code with, but what they want US to code with. Why create a new language ( well, copy Java anyhows ) if you are going to encourage people to keep using the old ones ? They already *had* VB - why do they need two languages if they are going to support C++ as well. Can someone tell me when VB.NET is a better choice and when C# is a better choice ? Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001
Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz
I live in Bob's HungOut now
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Fazlul Kabir wrote: The .property way (aka Delphi/VB way ) of programming is not specific to C# language. You can perfectly have that feature, including other RAD (Rapid Application Development) /CBD (Component Based Development) features in C++ too. Check Capitolsoft's RadVC and Borland's C++ Builder for proof. How widely used are these tools though compared to Microsofts? Looking at this from a career point of view, would it be better to learn to use Microsoft tools (if they are the defacto-standard)? Or is this not really an issue? Joseph LeBlanc
Joseph LeBlanc wrote: Or is this not really an issue? Perhaps I should use a disclaimer of shameless plug before I start answering your question. In terms of the followings, you're right, they are no way close to the same of Microsoft's product. In terms of technology, things are a bit different. Though BCB works with Borland's proprietory VCL component framework, RadVC's framework is a MFC extension library that emulates the one used by VB and now C#/.NET. Thus there is no new learning curve you have to master, you will be programming in C#/.NET way, and your code will be compiled in VC++ using MFC framework. // Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++ http://www.capitolsoft.com
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Since you're 18 and like programming, you probably want to pursue it as a career. You can make applications that do any of the things that you want with either C# or C++ (except you can't really play with COM with C#, but the CLR does the things that COM does in different ways). The .net platform is MS's target programming environment for the foreseeable future, it is where they will be placing their focus and $$$. Corporate and private shops will make the switch, it is even rumored that the .net framework is in w2k sp3, the next os releases will definitely include it. There will be work for both platforms (managed vs. unmanaged code) for many years yet, but it will probably become easier to stay employed by focusing on C#. __ One important thing: It doesn't really matter what language you choose. The larger issues with professional programming have to do with design. Learn Object Oriented Design. Learn the basics about more than one modeling language (start with UML). Learn to code to popular coding standards. The language is job skills 101, the more advanced topics are what will really make you a professional. -John
My -- albeit simplistic -- advice, is just to learn whatever programming languages you possibly can, such as VB, C#, C++, and so forth. Explore making example programs and features just for the heck of it, get libraries and other tools you can afford, and become an expert in something that catches your interest. That way, you have a nice big bag of tricks for when you start your career. :) Sincerely Yours, Brian Hart "And that's the news from Lake Wobegon, where all the women are strong, the men are good-looking, and the children are above-average." - Garrison Keillor
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****Christian Graus wrote: in case M$ manages to kill C++, which I am sure is their aim, :suss: And what are they going to use to make next Windows, Office, IE, etc? Even .Net was coded with C++. I vote pro drink :beer:
And windows is mostly coded with C, not C++. Does that mean that C is the best language for our purposes? ;P ;P Kind regards Mustafa Demirhan http://www.macroangel.com Sonork ID 100.9935:zoltrix
