C# Downgrade

Christian Graus

CLaW wrote: ok, if you are working on a specific box with a certain screw, would you rather have the toolkit or just have a screwdriver you already know will solve the problem? Is that a downgrade? perhaps, but its still a better way of doing things. If the toolkit *contained* a screwdriver that did the job just as well, and in some way gave me more control over the process ( yours is an electric screwdriver with one speed, mine has 10 ), then no, I'd prefer the toolit. Even if the screwdrivers were the same, I'd prefer not to rely on needing one specific tool every time I needed to do a job. CLaW wrote: No, I think I will be making MANY websites with it in the future. Most definately COMPLETELY surplanting my ASP development. I might also make applications which can integrate with these websites with C#. For instance, a program that uses a web service to check for new posts to a forum, popping a ballon up from the tray when new things happen. Oh, well, that's another story. I'm sure C# is an upgrade on asp. I'm just wondering how long it will take to find out about the security holes in C# powered websites. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001

Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz

I live in Bob's HungOut now

Christopher Lord

Thankyou for the insighful comments... George wrote: As far as I can see C# didn't do any job yet, it's hardly even released since an official release is still couple weeks in the future. I guess the RTM build on MSDN is just a big mistake... Perhaps you should inform microsoft that they have let their product on the market a couple of weeks early? George wrote: You are still not understandind the difference between C# and C++ or even the difference between hammer and screwdriver. I understand the difference quite well. I work with C++ every day for 8-12 hours a day (thus is the life of a small contract programmer, oh for the cushy office programming job...) And as a kid, I worked with hammers and screwdrivers every summer building houses and offices. I think I am well aware of the differences there as well. George wrote: That is what make a difference: the flexibility of generic tool will always outgrow canned solution. In the end my contruction using C++ will be much better than yours using C#, each and every time. Perhaps, but you will spend 3-6 months building an e-commerce site in C++, while I will put out 3 or 4 in a month, with many more options and features and full page graphics to boot. The general case is not always the better one for a specific and focused problem. The toolkit is only better when you dont know what problem you are solving in advance // Rock

Christopher Lord

****Christian Graus wrote: If the toolkit *contained* a screwdriver that did the job just as well, and in some way gave me more control over the process ( yours is an electric screwdriver with one speed, mine has 10 ), then no, I'd prefer the toolit. Even if the screwdrivers were the same, I'd prefer not to rely on needing one specific tool every time I needed to do a job. Ah yes, but I can easly jump to C++ when I need to, and use C# when it will get the job done faster. Someone with Ideological attachments to C++ will thus be a less productive programmer. My contention is that using C# sometimes is not a downgrade. Its just another more focused tool in the toolbox. // Rock

Daniel Ferguson

As you say, VB is a gateway language. I, myself, learned VB first because it is easier to learn, but I became extremely frustrated with the things I couldn't do with VB, and the things that were more difficult than they should be. That's why I learned C++. I just couldn't work with the limitations of VB. With C++ you can do things as close to the metal (inline asm, if you wish) as you want or as easy (RAD) as you want. Flexibility is the key here. With C# you may be able to do things easily, but you're trading the flexibility of C++ for that. Sure you get garbage collection, but you lose deterministic destruction. I'd rather learn to be a better programmer and have to free any memory that I allocate, than lose deterministic destruction. You know, I don't remember hordes of programmers saying that C++ was too hard for them (get another job ;P ) and they wanted another language. As you said, and I agree, VB is a gateway language. Why don't real programmers use it? Simple, it isn't powerful or flexible enough. So the syntax is more C++-like now? That's just syntax, we want power and flexibilty. "Not to mention that security in Outlook is like having Homer Simpson guard a Dunkin' Donuts factory." - Gary Rogers

Daniel Ferguson

George wrote: C# is a solution looking for the problem. I'd say that sums it up quite well. "Not to mention that security in Outlook is like having Homer Simpson guard a Dunkin' Donuts factory." - Gary Rogers

Christian Graus

CLaW wrote: Ah yes, but I can easly jump to C++ when I need to, and use C# when it will get the job done faster. Someone with Ideological attachments to C++ will thus be a less productive programmer. My contention is that using C# sometimes is not a downgrade. Its just another more focused tool in the toolbox. MY contention is that I refuse to embrace C# in a lemminglike fashion, I'll wait and see if it actually can make me more productive, and I won't jump aboard until the majority of my customers have the CLR and do not face a 21 MB download on top of my application. I'll also require that performance remains the same and that C# come with a library equal to the STL. If I get that, I can live without generics, and for certain types of app, I can live without memory management. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001

Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz

I live in Bob's HungOut now

George

CLaW wrote: Perhaps, but you will spend 3-6 months building an e-commerce site in C++, while I will put out 3 or 4 in a month, I am absolutely not interested in doing anything that takes to develop a week. I will build my product in a year and it will live much longer than your e-commerce site written in C#. My product will also make much more money as it will drive the whole big company with thousands employees. You can keep on making a toys - the real money is not there (as all the dot-coms have already learned). Have fun while it lasts :)

Daniel Ferguson

Didn't you hear, Christian, that security is MS's new focus? :laugh: It's security before features now. (yeah, that's sarcasm [where's the sarcasm emoticon?]) "Not to mention that security in Outlook is like having Homer Simpson guard a Dunkin' Donuts factory." - Gary Rogers

Christian Graus

Yeah, I heard. I initially assumed the story would link to satirewire or a similar site. I never would have thought Bill could say that with a straight face. In the year 2002, Bill decided that security was a bold new concept... Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001

Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz

I live in Bob's HungOut now

Christopher Lord

George wrote: You can keep on making a toys - the real money is not there (as all the dot-coms have already learned). If the customer wants "toys", who am I to say that they will have to wait 6 months when I can deliver exactly what they want in less time? Lets not forget that most big company pages are made with 'Toy' languages like ASP now. The reason? Less time developing means more content, which is REALLY the point to a website. I dont understand why you would make that choice. // Rock

Christopher Lord

****Christian Graus wrote: I refuse to embrace C# in a lemminglike fashion Good plan, so do I. But that doesn't mean I will slow down my normal learning rate. It takes me little time to determine if something will make me "more productive". From the experimenting I have done already, things look promising (IE, doors have not been shut to it yet) // Rock

Stan Shannon

I'm an old C/C++ guy who will agree with you - to a limited extent. I think C++ is a toolbox with a lot of important tools. But carrying all those tools to every job where most are never needed is a waste. If C# represents a smaller toolbox, with tools designed for a specific small range or jobs, than I have no problem with the concept, and will probably spend some time learning it. Putting the C++ tool box in the hands of someone who is not capable of understanding its power is probably a dangerous thing to do. It is my understanding that C# is specifically intended to make web enabled applications (at least M$ vision of web enabled applications) easier to create. If that is the case than I'm sure it is a wonderful thing. The problem remains that most real world applications are going to require the power of a language like C++ under the control of people who are intellectual predisposed to employ it. THe *real* problem with languages like VB and C# is the mindset which they engender in people who are making financial decisions related to the development process. These people are made to believe that a complex application can be made simple by using a simple language to design it, thus reducing the time it takes to create the app. This is a horrible mistake to make. There is an inherent level of complexity in any application which no "simple" language can refine away. You must understand the nature of that complexity and bring a toolbox that is fully capable of dealing with it.

George

CLaW wrote: Lets not forget that most big company pages are made with 'Toy' languages like ASP now. They also do it internally and won't buy a shit from you... CLaW wrote: Less time developing means more content, which is REALLY the point to a website. I don't see where is the development involved into making a website. Everybody and their dog can make a website now, just use HTML and Front Page, it will not even take a week and will cost you only as much a MS Office set. As you said, the point is content and HTML is all it takes to have it. No room for C# and no room for development... CLaW wrote: I dont understand why you would make that choice. Well, maybe because I am developing an applications that actually do something, while you seem to need a tool that makes nothing in no-time ;P

Uwe Keim

Hey, looking at your picture, now I know what "down under means" :-D On your side of the globe, the picture look correctly orientated, I guess?!? -- See me: www.magerquark.de

Christian Graus

I don't expect it will take me long to learn what is basically a subset of C++ crossed with Java, and I doubt it will be of much use in my field of endeavour. In the meantime, I keep meaning to play with it, but other things keep coming up. In other words, the odds of C# making me more productive are basically zero, and I'll look at it when I find time. If C# makes you more productive and you don't mind being a M$ beta tester when you're on the job, then that's great for you. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001

Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz

I live in Bob's HungOut now

Christian Graus

You're saying it looks disoriented in Germany ? :-) Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001

Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz

I live in Bob's HungOut now

Christian Graus

George wrote: C# is a solution looking for the problem. Do you realise that was what Stroustrup said about Java ? There's a lot of interesting reading on his page regarding both Java and C# ( although he is careful to always talk in the abstract and not about any specific language ). The Internet saved Java, who will save C# ? Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001

Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz

I live in Bob's HungOut now

George

****Christian Graus wrote: Do you realise that was what Stroustrup said about Java ? I knew I heard it somewhere before, just couldn't put the finger on it ;)

Paul Watson

CLaW wrote: C++ and C# are like this, it appears. It BOGGLES me to think that people consider one a downgrade of another, can you folks who hold this explain your position so that I can evaluate this idea? IMHO we all need to dropt his subject and get on with the job. C# is too new for any of us to really "evaluate" it in a real world application. Those who currently use and love C++ will say what they say about C#. Sometimes for no reason, sometimes because their job won't be covered by C#. Those who currently use VB etc. will take a look at C# and if they like what they see will move to it. But right now, right this moment I think we all need to give it, the subject, a break and wait until we have some cold hard data. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront

David Wulff

Use JScript for ASP scripting, and you won't have to remove the semi-colons. And the logic is almost exactly the same as C++. ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group, there was less competition there" - Gandhi