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C# Downgrade

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  • G George

    CLaW wrote: Lets not forget that most big company pages are made with 'Toy' languages like ASP now. They also do it internally and won't buy a shit from you... CLaW wrote: Less time developing means more content, which is REALLY the point to a website. I don't see where is the development involved into making a website. Everybody and their dog can make a website now, just use HTML and Front Page, it will not even take a week and will cost you only as much a MS Office set. As you said, the point is content and HTML is all it takes to have it. No room for C# and no room for development... CLaW wrote: I dont understand why you would make that choice. Well, maybe because I am developing an applications that actually do something, while you seem to need a tool that makes nothing in no-time ;P

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    Paul Watson
    wrote on last edited by
    #57

    George wrote: don't see where is the development involved into making a website. Everybody and their dog can make a website now, just use HTML and Front Page, it will not even take a week and will cost you only as much a MS Office set. As you said, the point is content and HTML is all it takes to have it. No room for C# and no room for development... Oh boy, now I am pissed... So you are saying that Amazon.com, MSDN.Microsoft.com and CodeProject.com are a bunch of pages put together in a week using Microsoft Word and FrontPage? You ignorant button pusher... Aaarrgghhh! :) George, your mind will boggle at what it takes to put together a dynamic web-application. I have seen websites which actually run on C++ built components. They pull in data from literally hundres of legacy systems. They communicate with factories half way around the world which pick and pack what you chose to buy. They interact with banks to make your purchase happen, and banks are notoriously "old school" technology based. I have seen intranets which keep thirteen different world wide offices systems in parralel, serving up literally gigabytes of documents, email, memos, graphs, statistics and video conferences. They serve this to everything from a Palm Handheld to a WAP phone to a desktop PC to a wall mounted projector. My, my George, I never knew FrontPage and Microsoft Word could do all that, I shall give it a bash... I think even mild mannered Chris would go into apopoplexy if you said "Hey, did you make CP in Word and FrontPage?" regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront

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    • S Stan Shannon

      I'm an old C/C++ guy who will agree with you - to a limited extent. I think C++ is a toolbox with a lot of important tools. But carrying all those tools to every job where most are never needed is a waste. If C# represents a smaller toolbox, with tools designed for a specific small range or jobs, than I have no problem with the concept, and will probably spend some time learning it. Putting the C++ tool box in the hands of someone who is not capable of understanding its power is probably a dangerous thing to do. It is my understanding that C# is specifically intended to make web enabled applications (at least M$ vision of web enabled applications) easier to create. If that is the case than I'm sure it is a wonderful thing. The problem remains that most real world applications are going to require the power of a language like C++ under the control of people who are intellectual predisposed to employ it. THe *real* problem with languages like VB and C# is the mindset which they engender in people who are making financial decisions related to the development process. These people are made to believe that a complex application can be made simple by using a simple language to design it, thus reducing the time it takes to create the app. This is a horrible mistake to make. There is an inherent level of complexity in any application which no "simple" language can refine away. You must understand the nature of that complexity and bring a toolbox that is fully capable of dealing with it.

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      Vivek Rajan
      wrote on last edited by
      #58

      Stan Shannon wrote: THe *real* problem with languages like VB and C# is the mindset which they engender in people who are making financial decisions related to the development process. These people are made to believe that a complex application can be made simple by using a simple language to design it, thus reducing the time it takes to create the app. Excellent - Stan !! I *knew* that was one of the side-effects of C#, VB, and Java - but I hv never been able to put it in words like you. I had a manager pick Java for a high complexity network management software. His reasoning seemed to be, "Hey! this problem is so complex, maybe it will become simpler by using a simple language". In the end, he (and the rest of his team) realised that the complexities of the problem are not going away. In fact, the problem had become that much more complex because we were using the wrong tool !! Stan Shannon wrote: in people who are making financial decisions related to the development process. Unfortunately, this mindset is seeping through to some lead developers and architects as well. Later- Vivek

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      • P Paul Watson

        George wrote: don't see where is the development involved into making a website. Everybody and their dog can make a website now, just use HTML and Front Page, it will not even take a week and will cost you only as much a MS Office set. As you said, the point is content and HTML is all it takes to have it. No room for C# and no room for development... Oh boy, now I am pissed... So you are saying that Amazon.com, MSDN.Microsoft.com and CodeProject.com are a bunch of pages put together in a week using Microsoft Word and FrontPage? You ignorant button pusher... Aaarrgghhh! :) George, your mind will boggle at what it takes to put together a dynamic web-application. I have seen websites which actually run on C++ built components. They pull in data from literally hundres of legacy systems. They communicate with factories half way around the world which pick and pack what you chose to buy. They interact with banks to make your purchase happen, and banks are notoriously "old school" technology based. I have seen intranets which keep thirteen different world wide offices systems in parralel, serving up literally gigabytes of documents, email, memos, graphs, statistics and video conferences. They serve this to everything from a Palm Handheld to a WAP phone to a desktop PC to a wall mounted projector. My, my George, I never knew FrontPage and Microsoft Word could do all that, I shall give it a bash... I think even mild mannered Chris would go into apopoplexy if you said "Hey, did you make CP in Word and FrontPage?" regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront

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        George
        wrote on last edited by
        #59

        Paul Watson wrote: So you are saying that Amazon.com, MSDN.Microsoft.com and CodeProject.com are a bunch of pages put together in a week using Microsoft Word and FrontPage? Would you mind to read the whole story and not just the last post? If you do you will discover that my point is that anything that takes a week to make and is a webpage is not a development. Amazon, MSDN and CP are not made in a week, so the whole rest of your post is off topic and I'm not even reading it... ;P

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        • G George

          Paul Watson wrote: So you are saying that Amazon.com, MSDN.Microsoft.com and CodeProject.com are a bunch of pages put together in a week using Microsoft Word and FrontPage? Would you mind to read the whole story and not just the last post? If you do you will discover that my point is that anything that takes a week to make and is a webpage is not a development. Amazon, MSDN and CP are not made in a week, so the whole rest of your post is off topic and I'm not even reading it... ;P

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          Paul Watson
          wrote on last edited by
          #60

          George wrote: Would you mind to read the whole story and not just the last post? If you do you will discover that my point is that anything that takes a week to make and is a webpage is not a development. Amazon, MSDN and CP are not made in a week, so the whole rest of your post is off topic and I'm not even reading it... Heh, sorry George. I was a bit of an ass hole and idiot in my reply to you. BUT I used it as an excuse to let a bit of steam off over how "real programmers" treat us web developers. p.s. I made a small content management system using ASP, JavaScript, SQL, XML, XSL and of course HTML in about a week. It lets me edit my site content, add new pages and upload and insert new images. It was not elegant coding (except the XML/XSL bit which is really cool) but it works and it does it's job. Now I hate to think anyone would think that it is not a developed piece of code. :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront

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          • P Paul Watson

            George wrote: Would you mind to read the whole story and not just the last post? If you do you will discover that my point is that anything that takes a week to make and is a webpage is not a development. Amazon, MSDN and CP are not made in a week, so the whole rest of your post is off topic and I'm not even reading it... Heh, sorry George. I was a bit of an ass hole and idiot in my reply to you. BUT I used it as an excuse to let a bit of steam off over how "real programmers" treat us web developers. p.s. I made a small content management system using ASP, JavaScript, SQL, XML, XSL and of course HTML in about a week. It lets me edit my site content, add new pages and upload and insert new images. It was not elegant coding (except the XML/XSL bit which is really cool) but it works and it does it's job. Now I hate to think anyone would think that it is not a developed piece of code. :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront

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            George
            wrote on last edited by
            #61

            Paul Watson wrote: BUT I used it as an excuse to let a bit of steam off over how "real programmers" treat us web developers. I don't have any "special treatment" against web developers, but I am feeling a little bit sorry when I hear things like "I have to ge where the marker goes", or "my costumer wants me to use that or that technology". I prefer to choose my ways myself instead of being pushed around by any changes in the current hype. *I* choose the technology and language I want to work with, then I find the company that uses it and I work for them. Web developers seem to much more slaved by the market... Paul Watson wrote: Now I hate to think anyone would think that it is not a developed piece of code. A small piece of advice: relax! ;)

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            • V Vivek Rajan

              Stan Shannon wrote: THe *real* problem with languages like VB and C# is the mindset which they engender in people who are making financial decisions related to the development process. These people are made to believe that a complex application can be made simple by using a simple language to design it, thus reducing the time it takes to create the app. Excellent - Stan !! I *knew* that was one of the side-effects of C#, VB, and Java - but I hv never been able to put it in words like you. I had a manager pick Java for a high complexity network management software. His reasoning seemed to be, "Hey! this problem is so complex, maybe it will become simpler by using a simple language". In the end, he (and the rest of his team) realised that the complexities of the problem are not going away. In fact, the problem had become that much more complex because we were using the wrong tool !! Stan Shannon wrote: in people who are making financial decisions related to the development process. Unfortunately, this mindset is seeping through to some lead developers and architects as well. Later- Vivek

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              Reno Tiko
              wrote on last edited by
              #62

              Vivek Rajan wrote: I had a manager pick Java for a high complexity network management software. His reasoning seemed to be, "Hey! this problem is so complex, maybe it will become simpler by using a simple language". In the end, he (and the rest of his team) realised that the complexities of the problem are not going away. In fact, the problem had become that much more complex because we were using the wrong tool !! C# is by far from a simple language. It's still a complex beast, but just not as obfuscated as C++. When tackling a complex problem such as a network managent solution, you'll want to borrow as much infrastructure code as possible to avoid writing the plumbing code. The plumbing code is usually already written and tested for you in languages such as Java and C#, so you don't have to worry about low level stuff and writing your own code to handle SOAP, SNMP, etc. Why write something when somebody else has written it already for you? But if there's a particular problem that hasn't yet been solved by any available package yet, then I concur that any choice of language won't make the problem go away; however it may make the problem less difficult to solve.

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              • R Reno Tiko

                Vivek Rajan wrote: I had a manager pick Java for a high complexity network management software. His reasoning seemed to be, "Hey! this problem is so complex, maybe it will become simpler by using a simple language". In the end, he (and the rest of his team) realised that the complexities of the problem are not going away. In fact, the problem had become that much more complex because we were using the wrong tool !! C# is by far from a simple language. It's still a complex beast, but just not as obfuscated as C++. When tackling a complex problem such as a network managent solution, you'll want to borrow as much infrastructure code as possible to avoid writing the plumbing code. The plumbing code is usually already written and tested for you in languages such as Java and C#, so you don't have to worry about low level stuff and writing your own code to handle SOAP, SNMP, etc. Why write something when somebody else has written it already for you? But if there's a particular problem that hasn't yet been solved by any available package yet, then I concur that any choice of language won't make the problem go away; however it may make the problem less difficult to solve.

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                Vivek Rajan
                wrote on last edited by
                #63

                Reno Tiko wrote: The plumbing code is usually already written and tested for you in languages such as Java and C#, so you don't have to worry about low level stuff and writing your own code to handle SOAP, SNMP, etc. Why write something when somebody else has written it already for you? Yeah, I agree plumbing code must be avoided. However, a balance has to be struck to avoid over-reliance on 3rd party frameworks. Unfortunately, the more you rely on pre-built plumbing products and frameworks (such as openview, dorado, etc), the more difficult it will be to add value. We needed a product to handle 1000-snmp traps per second, and updating a fault management display within 1 second of the fault happening. Java did not cut it - either in handling the trap volume or updating the GUI. I am afraid neither will C# (I have been testing the beta). So, some problems do call for getting ur hands dirty with C++. So, what Stan said is still a widespread misconception : A problem cant be made simpler by using a simple language. Using prebuilt libraries and/or frameworks is an orthogonal issue (topic for another discussion). Later- Vivek

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                • C Christian Graus

                  CLaW wrote: Well, it may be better for you, and mine for myself. But the idea is the same, really. A screwdriver solves a sub-set of the problems a hammer can solve by integrating many of the techniques hammer users typically employ (I know, thats not completely acurate in the real world of screws and nails, but look at the underlying statement please). The underlying statement works better when you compare a toolkit to a screwdriver - a hammer cannot drive in a screw without making a mess of it. But we're splitting hairs. CLaW wrote: Christian Graus wrote: As Stroustrup says making programming easy by stopping people from making the common mistakes does not teach them to program, it only increases the size of the istakes they eventually make. And I Agree. So you regard C# as useful as a source of entertainment ? Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001

                  Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz

                  I live in Bob's HungOut now

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                  Nish Nishant
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #64

                  ****Christian Graus wrote: So you regard C# as useful as a source of entertainment ? To me, it was just that. I found it a fun language which I could learn, but not actually put to use :-) Nish Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain www.busterboy.org If you don't find me on CP, I'll be at Bob's HungOut

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                  • P Paul Watson

                    Jason Gerard wrote: So I'm not a real programmer? Good post Jason and no, you most definitley are a real programmer. Let the snobs carry on with their fancies while the rest of us use the right tools in the real world. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront

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                    Nish Nishant
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #65

                    Paul Watson wrote: you most definitley are a real programmer BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO LOL Nish Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain www.busterboy.org If you don't find me on CP, I'll be at Bob's HungOut

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                    • N Nish Nishant

                      ****Christian Graus wrote: So you regard C# as useful as a source of entertainment ? To me, it was just that. I found it a fun language which I could learn, but not actually put to use :-) Nish Sonork ID 100.9786 voidmain www.busterboy.org If you don't find me on CP, I'll be at Bob's HungOut

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                      Christian Graus
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #66

                      Nish [BusterBoy] wrote: Christian Graus wrote: So you regard C# as useful as a source of entertainment ? To me, it was just that. I found it a fun language which I could learn, but not actually put to use I meant more that as he agrees with Stroustrup on making a language easier leading to bigger design problems that he must like C# because he will be entertained by the problems people are having 6-12 months from now. But I agree - I wish I had time to play with it. Christian I have come to clean zee pooollll. - Michael Martin Dec 30, 2001

                      Sonork ID 100.10002:MeanManOz

                      I live in Bob's HungOut now

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