Canadian Arrow...
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In response to the how real the movie was... It was based on the facts, stories and rumours that surrounded the Arrow. Nobody, in the general public really knows what happened. You saw in the movie where the Woodman took the jet past Mach 2, yet the books say 1.96. Did he really pass Mach 2? I love the Arrow, and I have read a lot of books about it. The stories are always clouded by the pain that the Avro employees felt when the project was cancelled. My own personal opinion is that like most stories of legend, there are partial truths to all the stories. All the little things built up, such as pressure from the US, cost overruns, techincal issues, and the extreme disrespect of Diefenbaker and Crawford Gordon Jr. For nothing but facts (because it contains video and sound clips only, check this site: http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-75-275/science_technology/avro_arrow/[^] The Arrow had a lot of potential, and it would have been awesome to see 206 fly with the Iroquois engine. Trevor Braun
trevstar wrote: and it would have been awesome to see 206 fly with the Iroquois engine. Agreed. Nice engine. Did anything ever fly with the Iroquois? Top 10 Geek Resulutions: 5. To decipher what that big room is, which has the blue ceiling and poor climate control.
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I finished watching an old two part mini-series from 1997 called "The Arrow": http://imdb.com/title/tt0118641/[^] While I do not know exactly how much of the story is true, I was amazed that I had never heard of the Arrow project before. It was truly a sad situation after all the hard work and so far ahead of its time. As a side note (not related other than more about jets), in today's local newpaper, the front page had a story of a man you purchased an old Mig jet and had it trucked across the USA on two different trucks. He restored the jet, painted it pink and silver with a pink panther on the tail having a quote under it "So, you got a problem with Pink?". The jet cost him $50K and $7K to restore. The only problem is that he is not certified to fly a jet so he has to have a retired Air Force pilot he knows, to take him on rides. I bet his hands get on the controls in the air. That should would be a fun ride! Rocky <>< Enhanced Kites..[^]
There are many books on the Arrow, including a fictional story "The Last Flight of the Arrow". It describes a top-secret deal with the Americans to build an Arrow airbase in the Arctic, while publicly canceling the program. Then they take an Arrow over to Russia or China to film a breach in some treaty. Because it is so fast it can't be caught. (plus few know what it is). The bad guys get caught and in the end the program really is canceled. Top 10 Geek Resulutions: 5. To decipher what that big room is, which has the blue ceiling and poor climate control.
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You probably don't like the Mirage either, then. Many planes take their design cues from the Arrow, including internal weapons bays (a first). Top 10 Geek Resulutions: 5. To decipher what that big room is, which has the blue ceiling and poor climate control.
I like the esthetics of Mirage III or V, but not the one of the F1 :) It isn't about the Delta wing rather than the disproportion between the wing and the fuselage[^]. I also don't like the angular tail, tornado-like. But it's purely about personal tastes, very subjective, not about the quality of the design. Richard Jones wrote: including internal weapons bays (a first Are you sure? the Arrow first flight was in 1958, right? AFAIK, the SO 4050 Vautour (first flight in 1952? ) had also an internal weapon bay[^] :~
Fold With Us! Sie wollen mein Herz am rechten Fleck, doch Seh' ich dann nach unten weg Da schlägt es links!
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I may be harsh, and this is about personal taste: except the hideous Lightning[^], I rarely saw such an ugly plane[^] :~
Fold With Us! Sie wollen mein Herz am rechten Fleck, doch Seh' ich dann nach unten weg Da schlägt es links!
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In response to the how real the movie was... It was based on the facts, stories and rumours that surrounded the Arrow. Nobody, in the general public really knows what happened. You saw in the movie where the Woodman took the jet past Mach 2, yet the books say 1.96. Did he really pass Mach 2? I love the Arrow, and I have read a lot of books about it. The stories are always clouded by the pain that the Avro employees felt when the project was cancelled. My own personal opinion is that like most stories of legend, there are partial truths to all the stories. All the little things built up, such as pressure from the US, cost overruns, techincal issues, and the extreme disrespect of Diefenbaker and Crawford Gordon Jr. For nothing but facts (because it contains video and sound clips only, check this site: http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-75-275/science_technology/avro_arrow/[^] The Arrow had a lot of potential, and it would have been awesome to see 206 fly with the Iroquois engine. Trevor Braun
Just a thought of the "fastes plane in the world" thing. On on July 23, 1956, the Bell X2 achieved a speed of Mach 2.87 at 68,000 feet. And on Sept. 27, 1956, it reached a speed of 2,094 mph (Mach 3.196). The Bell X 15 reached a speed of mach 6.72 (4,534 mph) at an altitude of 354,200 ft . Not a conventional aircraft but FAST!!! Richard "Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer --Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)
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Just a thought of the "fastes plane in the world" thing. On on July 23, 1956, the Bell X2 achieved a speed of Mach 2.87 at 68,000 feet. And on Sept. 27, 1956, it reached a speed of 2,094 mph (Mach 3.196). The Bell X 15 reached a speed of mach 6.72 (4,534 mph) at an altitude of 354,200 ft . Not a conventional aircraft but FAST!!! Richard "Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer --Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)
It's true that the X2 was fast, and that it wasn't conventional. The X2 is one of the theories that dogs the Arrow. It's believed (by some) that the US wanted the Arrow out of commission because it was the only aircraft in the world that would be capable of taking the X2 down. (As is very briefly explored in the Arrow movie) What made the Arrow's speed so incredible was not just that it had a theoretical speed of somewhere around Mach 2.5, it was also a two-man, all-weather, long range interceptor, capable of taking off from a Canadian airbase, flying patrol over the polar cap, and then returning to base. I don't mean this in a negative way at all, but the X2 was none of those things. The Arrow and X2 are apples and oranges. The X2 had one purpose, and it was very, very dedicated to that task. Trevor
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I may be harsh, and this is about personal taste: except the hideous Lightning[^], I rarely saw such an ugly plane[^] :~
Fold With Us! Sie wollen mein Herz am rechten Fleck, doch Seh' ich dann nach unten weg Da schlägt es links!
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I may be harsh, and this is about personal taste: except the hideous Lightning[^], I rarely saw such an ugly plane[^] :~
Fold With Us! Sie wollen mein Herz am rechten Fleck, doch Seh' ich dann nach unten weg Da schlägt es links!
I think that the A10 is a pretty nasty beast, too!! :) At any rate, the design of the Arrow allowed it to be long range and capable of high-speed at the same time. I'm not an aviation engineer by any stretch but I believe the Delta wing allowed this (i.e. like a hang-glider with a jet engine on it!) But as you said it's your personal taste, and I can't very well tell you you're wrong!! You won't find many Arrow fans that agree with you though. :-D Trevor
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I finished watching an old two part mini-series from 1997 called "The Arrow": http://imdb.com/title/tt0118641/[^] While I do not know exactly how much of the story is true, I was amazed that I had never heard of the Arrow project before. It was truly a sad situation after all the hard work and so far ahead of its time. As a side note (not related other than more about jets), in today's local newpaper, the front page had a story of a man you purchased an old Mig jet and had it trucked across the USA on two different trucks. He restored the jet, painted it pink and silver with a pink panther on the tail having a quote under it "So, you got a problem with Pink?". The jet cost him $50K and $7K to restore. The only problem is that he is not certified to fly a jet so he has to have a retired Air Force pilot he knows, to take him on rides. I bet his hands get on the controls in the air. That should would be a fun ride! Rocky <>< Enhanced Kites..[^]
This is my answer to any Americans who have a problem with rejection of Missile Defense. You guy pressured us not building our own a/c defenses, so we didn't and instead bought your crappy missiles. Now look where that got us. Fool us once...
Every nation ridicules other nations, and all are right. - Schopenhauer
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trevstar wrote: and it would have been awesome to see 206 fly with the Iroquois engine. Agreed. Nice engine. Did anything ever fly with the Iroquois? Top 10 Geek Resulutions: 5. To decipher what that big room is, which has the blue ceiling and poor climate control.
No, unfortunately, Crawford Gordon really was mis-managing badly at the end of the Avro run. There were a few countries that were interested in the bits and pieces of the Arrow technology, especially the Iroquois, but everything was all destroyed, and even the plans that could have been sold were also destroyed. It's funny, they cut everything up into little tiny pieces. (It's a lot like the Howard Hughes thing where he made the engineers cut up the badly designed steam-car.) The "legend" of the Arrow says that residents near the Avro plant saw big pieces of the Arrow being trucked away late one night. Many believe the pieces were taken to Area 51, where the US used the technology to build more spy planes. There is a shot I saw somewhere of the F-117A taken head on next to a head-on shot of the Arrow. The simlarities are striking. Is it coincidence? I think a lot of it is, but there's probably some influence from the Arrow in a few planes in the world. (Or at least I like to believe there is.) Back to the Iroquois thing, one of the guys I went to college with said that he belonged to an aviation group, and they found part of an Iroquois engine in an airplane junkyard. I don't remember what he said happened to the carcass, whether it's in a museum or what. It's really very sad, actually. After the Arrow died, Avro continued, trying to build boat hulls and stuff, but the company was just dessimated by the cancellation of the Arrow. Trevor
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Well they were prototypes, and in a dogfight, I don't think there's any prize for best looking aircraft.
Every nation ridicules other nations, and all are right. - Schopenhauer
I'm not sure a delta wing is the most suited for a dogfight :)
Fold With Us! Sie wollen mein Herz am rechten Fleck, doch Seh' ich dann nach unten weg Da schlägt es links!
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I think that the A10 is a pretty nasty beast, too!! :) At any rate, the design of the Arrow allowed it to be long range and capable of high-speed at the same time. I'm not an aviation engineer by any stretch but I believe the Delta wing allowed this (i.e. like a hang-glider with a jet engine on it!) But as you said it's your personal taste, and I can't very well tell you you're wrong!! You won't find many Arrow fans that agree with you though. :-D Trevor
trevstar wrote: I think that the A10 is a pretty nasty beast I love that one! :-D
Fold With Us! Sie wollen mein Herz am rechten Fleck, doch Seh' ich dann nach unten weg Da schlägt es links!
