What is Netscape worth?
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Suit may be Netscape’s biggest asset It wasn't long ago the hope for company execs was to build a great product or service and be bought out by MS and make millions. Is the trend now to build a lousy product and sue MS and still make millions? As soon as I can afford the lawyers I'll be an millionare. Anyone want to join me?
Netscape isn't worth the Charmin that Barksdale wipes his butt with. Jon Sagara What about :bob:?
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I do not understand the customer choice issue at all, especially when raised by AOL. As I understand, to use AOL you have to use their software. If you close that app, the connection also closes. I am not a regular user of AOL, so correct me if I am wrong. So, they can 'technically force' people to use AOL software using the might of their large user base, but Microsoft cannot force people to use IE. Sounds like double standards to me. I believe that the question of acceptable business practices and ethical behaviour is better discussed outside the court. Netscape is not even near IE now. It used to be better, but they lost their focus when started looking at legal options and lost their technical edge. I think Netscape is more a victim of 'its own victim syndrome' than Microsoft. If the browser was better, offered something drastically different (which Netscape should considering that it is their core business) people would have used it. Thomas
AOL actually force you to use IE. As IE is the main component of their software suite. (For browsing any way). Maybe I should sue AOL for sending me unsoliciated CD's through the mail. Or for the number of magazine pages that have ripped due to crappy glue on the back of their CD's. :-D Michael :-)
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Netscape isn't worth the Charmin that Barksdale wipes his butt with. Jon Sagara What about :bob:?
Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel. :-D
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Suit may be Netscape’s biggest asset It wasn't long ago the hope for company execs was to build a great product or service and be bought out by MS and make millions. Is the trend now to build a lousy product and sue MS and still make millions? As soon as I can afford the lawyers I'll be an millionare. Anyone want to join me?
When Netscape started out, they wre _trying_ to make a better product. Then they were squashed by MS's anti-competitive practices. Am I the only one who remembers that for a while, MS required that IE 4.0 be installed by anyone who wanted to upgrade the Windows Common Controls? Even the courts seem to have missed that one. The problem here is that Netscape never had the opportunity to compete. I agree that they make an inferior product, though that was not always such a clear distinction. If the lawsuit is all they have left, why, more power to them.
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Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel. :-D
Does no one remember that Netscape SOLD web browsers? Yes they made mistakes and it is ironic AOL is involved giving they've done most to distribute IE(!!) but their business was unfairly wiped out by MS's monopoly abuse. Davy http://www.LateDecember.com
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When Netscape started out, they wre _trying_ to make a better product. Then they were squashed by MS's anti-competitive practices. Am I the only one who remembers that for a while, MS required that IE 4.0 be installed by anyone who wanted to upgrade the Windows Common Controls? Even the courts seem to have missed that one. The problem here is that Netscape never had the opportunity to compete. I agree that they make an inferior product, though that was not always such a clear distinction. If the lawsuit is all they have left, why, more power to them.
Netscape tried to compete. They just made too many mistakes, they started a rewrite of their browser, they got big ideas of network computing and the browser being the OS. They wanted to take on Microsoft, to try and wrest control of the desktop from Microsoft. They lost. Jim A. Johnson wrote: If the lawsuit is all they have left, why, more power to them. If Netscape was still a small company who were actively trying to compete then I would agree. But this is AOL/Time Warner now - a company bigger than Microsoft with their hands in a lot more pies that MS. The one thing I hate about society today is the use of the law like this. It use to be, if you fail, try,try,try again but now it is if you fail, sue,sue and sue again. Michael :-)
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Does no one remember that Netscape SOLD web browsers? Yes they made mistakes and it is ironic AOL is involved giving they've done most to distribute IE(!!) but their business was unfairly wiped out by MS's monopoly abuse. Davy http://www.LateDecember.com
I don't agree. If Netscape was so good and people bought it, why did they then change to using IE? Michael :-)
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Netscape tried to compete. They just made too many mistakes, they started a rewrite of their browser, they got big ideas of network computing and the browser being the OS. They wanted to take on Microsoft, to try and wrest control of the desktop from Microsoft. They lost. Jim A. Johnson wrote: If the lawsuit is all they have left, why, more power to them. If Netscape was still a small company who were actively trying to compete then I would agree. But this is AOL/Time Warner now - a company bigger than Microsoft with their hands in a lot more pies that MS. The one thing I hate about society today is the use of the law like this. It use to be, if you fail, try,try,try again but now it is if you fail, sue,sue and sue again. Michael :-)
>they started a rewrite of their browser Actually http://www.mozilla.org is looking pretty good and it is much more than a browser (XUL interface etc.) For the benefit of web designers it is highly standard compliant and cross platform (8+ I think). Other Apps use Mozilla components and Bugzilla is everywhere too. Mozilla as taken a while though :-) Personnally, I use Konquerer which is far better than IE or Netsc/mozilla!! Davy http://www.LateDecember.com
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I don't agree. If Netscape was so good and people bought it, why did they then change to using IE? Michael :-)
Why are they still using IE. I may be wrong but the contract with MS to use IE expired. Why not use their own in-house product. It's hard to argue being crushed by competition when the company doesn't use even use its own products.
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I don't agree. If Netscape was so good and people bought it, why did they then change to using IE? Michael :-)
Michael P Butler wrote: I don't agree. If Netscape was so good and people bought it, why did they then change to using IE? Because IE was free and nearly as good. Then Netscape got all hot under the collar, rushed a browser out (4.0) and suddenly IE was still free and much better. Frankly Netscape dropped the ball. MS did not kick it out of their hands using illegal methods. Notepad and Calculator come with Windows. I don't use them though because there are better, still free, apps out there. So this whole "integration with OS" is illegal thing is bollocks. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
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When Netscape started out, they wre _trying_ to make a better product. Then they were squashed by MS's anti-competitive practices. Am I the only one who remembers that for a while, MS required that IE 4.0 be installed by anyone who wanted to upgrade the Windows Common Controls? Even the courts seem to have missed that one. The problem here is that Netscape never had the opportunity to compete. I agree that they make an inferior product, though that was not always such a clear distinction. If the lawsuit is all they have left, why, more power to them.
Jim A. Johnson wrote: When Netscape started out, they wre _trying_ to make a better product. Then they were squashed by MS's anti-competitive practices *chokes on my "please be nice and let me win" chew toy* Please, Netscape dropped the ball. MS made a better product and it was free from day one. If this whole "it is part of the operating system" was really "anti-competitive" practice then I would still be using Notepad to edit my websites and Calculator (calc.exe) to calculate my spreadsheets from a piece of paper. The fact is I can download much better editors and calculators which are free as well. It comes down to Netscape dropped the ball because they got flustered by just how good IE was becoming. They rushed Netscape 4.0 and things went very down hill from there. MS may be unfair in other areas, but IE was the better product. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
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Why are they still using IE. I may be wrong but the contract with MS to use IE expired. Why not use their own in-house product. It's hard to argue being crushed by competition when the company doesn't use even use its own products.
Mark Nischalke wrote: Why are they still using IE. I may be wrong but the contract with MS to use IE expired. Why not use their own in-house product. Because their inhouse product is not yet ready and is a bit crap? :-D Actually I found a news article about this awhile back and sent it onto Chris, who did not post it ( :-D ), but anyway. Here it is, AOL to use NEtscape in Compuserve v7.0, scary stuff! regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
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Jim A. Johnson wrote: When Netscape started out, they wre _trying_ to make a better product. Then they were squashed by MS's anti-competitive practices *chokes on my "please be nice and let me win" chew toy* Please, Netscape dropped the ball. MS made a better product and it was free from day one. If this whole "it is part of the operating system" was really "anti-competitive" practice then I would still be using Notepad to edit my websites and Calculator (calc.exe) to calculate my spreadsheets from a piece of paper. The fact is I can download much better editors and calculators which are free as well. It comes down to Netscape dropped the ball because they got flustered by just how good IE was becoming. They rushed Netscape 4.0 and things went very down hill from there. MS may be unfair in other areas, but IE was the better product. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
Paul Watson wrote: MS may be unfair in other areas, but IE was the better product. Yeah, this is why it's so murky. At 3.0, Netscape had the better product - at least, it was more mature. at 5.0, MS clearly had the better product. But at 4.0, MS used their muscle to squeeze IE onto people's machine, regardless of whether it was wanted. Doesn't anyone remember how in 1998 (I think), practically every new Windows product had a sticker on it that said "Include IE 4.0"? That is precisely because of MS's licensing agreements at the time, which stated that the comman controls could _not_ be distributed separately from IE. And since the earlier common controls were buggy (for example, the tree control frequently crashed when NULL HTREEITEMs were referenced), and because the newer common controls had more neat features, ISVs were pretty much forced to install IE. Yeah, it's a shame that Netscape is a pawn in the AOL/MS battle. There is a lot of shameful stuff in this business. Right now I have to start rearchitecting my project to be a cross-platform Mac/Windows product, because MS has not been able to overcome its reputation for poor quality in the audio industry; primarily because... well, that's another can of worms.
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Michael P Butler wrote: I don't agree. If Netscape was so good and people bought it, why did they then change to using IE? Because IE was free and nearly as good. Then Netscape got all hot under the collar, rushed a browser out (4.0) and suddenly IE was still free and much better. Frankly Netscape dropped the ball. MS did not kick it out of their hands using illegal methods. Notepad and Calculator come with Windows. I don't use them though because there are better, still free, apps out there. So this whole "integration with OS" is illegal thing is bollocks. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
Paul Watson wrote: Notepad and Calculator come with Windows. I don't use them though because there are better, still free, apps out there. In fact, to be completly honest with you, I probably use those two apps more frequently that I do IE! :omg: I use Notepad to edit everything from quick changes to source code, to tweaking a web page, to editing all of my CodeProject messages (even this one!). ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group, there was less competition there" - Gandhi
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Paul Watson wrote: Notepad and Calculator come with Windows. I don't use them though because there are better, still free, apps out there. In fact, to be completly honest with you, I probably use those two apps more frequently that I do IE! :omg: I use Notepad to edit everything from quick changes to source code, to tweaking a web page, to editing all of my CodeProject messages (even this one!). ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group, there was less competition there" - Gandhi
David Wulff wrote: In fact, to be completly honest with you, I probably use those two apps more frequently that I do IE! :-O ssshhhh same here but don't tell anyone because that would make my arguement about IE vs. Netscape weaker. I wonder why Ed has not sued MS for including Notepad in Windows? I mean surely that is anti-competitive practice in the Text Editor market if IE being in Windows is anti-competitive in the Browser market? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
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>they started a rewrite of their browser Actually http://www.mozilla.org is looking pretty good and it is much more than a browser (XUL interface etc.) For the benefit of web designers it is highly standard compliant and cross platform (8+ I think). Other Apps use Mozilla components and Bugzilla is everywhere too. Mozilla as taken a while though :-) Personnally, I use Konquerer which is far better than IE or Netsc/mozilla!! Davy http://www.LateDecember.com
Davy Mitchell wrote: Personnally, I use Konquerer which is far better than IE or Netsc/mozilla!! Amazing how personal preferences can vary so widely. I tried Konquerer (during one of my Linux trials) and thought, "Wow, this browser really sucks!" I much prefered Opera over the rest (Netscape, Mozzila, Konquerer). In fact, on the Windows platform I rate Opera a VERY close second to IE. There are several features in Opera that I like better than IE, but overall web pages just look better on IE.
Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "Programming is like sex. One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life." - Michael Sinz
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Netscape SOLD web browsers? BZZZZZZ Sorry, but that is the wrong answer. Netscape wasn't in business to sell web browsers. They never actively tried to get money from their largest consumer base. Netscape tried to get money from corporate browser usage and corporate web services. Of course, all this talk about the MS monopoly totally ignores the fact that MS IE beat the pants off of Netscape as far as quality goes. I was a Netscape user until the version 4 disaster. Netscape put out a very buggy version that crashed a LOT. But Netscape crashing doesn't bother anybody. Only when IE crashes do people get upset. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
Tim Smith wrote: But Netscape crashing doesn't bother anybody. Only when IE crashes do people get upset. Strangely that was very true as you say with version 4.0 up until a year or two ago. Then all the web developers went "aaahhh!" and realised just how bad 4.0 really was. Also the whole NEtscape 6.0 First Release debacle did not recieve the same "never mind I will still use Netscape" attitude as 4.0 did. Funny that. More religion coming in? :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
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Does no one remember that Netscape SOLD web browsers? Yes they made mistakes and it is ironic AOL is involved giving they've done most to distribute IE(!!) but their business was unfairly wiped out by MS's monopoly abuse. Davy http://www.LateDecember.com
Netscape SOLD web browsers? BZZZZZZ Sorry, but that is the wrong answer. Netscape wasn't in business to sell web browsers. They never actively tried to get money from their largest consumer base. Netscape tried to get money from corporate browser usage and corporate web services. Of course, all this talk about the MS monopoly totally ignores the fact that MS IE beat the pants off of Netscape as far as quality goes. I was a Netscape user until the version 4 disaster. Netscape put out a very buggy version that crashed a LOT. But Netscape crashing doesn't bother anybody. Only when IE crashes do people get upset. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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Paul Watson wrote: MS may be unfair in other areas, but IE was the better product. Yeah, this is why it's so murky. At 3.0, Netscape had the better product - at least, it was more mature. at 5.0, MS clearly had the better product. But at 4.0, MS used their muscle to squeeze IE onto people's machine, regardless of whether it was wanted. Doesn't anyone remember how in 1998 (I think), practically every new Windows product had a sticker on it that said "Include IE 4.0"? That is precisely because of MS's licensing agreements at the time, which stated that the comman controls could _not_ be distributed separately from IE. And since the earlier common controls were buggy (for example, the tree control frequently crashed when NULL HTREEITEMs were referenced), and because the newer common controls had more neat features, ISVs were pretty much forced to install IE. Yeah, it's a shame that Netscape is a pawn in the AOL/MS battle. There is a lot of shameful stuff in this business. Right now I have to start rearchitecting my project to be a cross-platform Mac/Windows product, because MS has not been able to overcome its reputation for poor quality in the audio industry; primarily because... well, that's another can of worms.
I switched to IE during the V3/V4 time frame. V4 of Netscape was a real piece of trash. I had used Netscape for at least a year but got totally sick of the problems. IE3 didn't have the features of Netscape V4. But at least IE3 ran. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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Michael P Butler wrote: I don't agree. If Netscape was so good and people bought it, why did they then change to using IE? Because IE was free and nearly as good. Then Netscape got all hot under the collar, rushed a browser out (4.0) and suddenly IE was still free and much better. Frankly Netscape dropped the ball. MS did not kick it out of their hands using illegal methods. Notepad and Calculator come with Windows. I don't use them though because there are better, still free, apps out there. So this whole "integration with OS" is illegal thing is bollocks. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
Well I remember a time when the sold IE as well. I know I bought a copy :) It was like $19-$29 USD but I bought it. Remember when you had to buy a TCP/IP stack like TRUMPET or something? Or the chameleon package for $50 USD? Ah, I remember those days! HomeNuke ---- "Nuke'd Your Home, Yet?" Run your own PostNuke based web server from home http://www.homenuke.com