What is Netscape worth?
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Does no one remember that Netscape SOLD web browsers? Yes they made mistakes and it is ironic AOL is involved giving they've done most to distribute IE(!!) but their business was unfairly wiped out by MS's monopoly abuse. Davy http://www.LateDecember.com
I don't agree. If Netscape was so good and people bought it, why did they then change to using IE? Michael :-)
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Netscape tried to compete. They just made too many mistakes, they started a rewrite of their browser, they got big ideas of network computing and the browser being the OS. They wanted to take on Microsoft, to try and wrest control of the desktop from Microsoft. They lost. Jim A. Johnson wrote: If the lawsuit is all they have left, why, more power to them. If Netscape was still a small company who were actively trying to compete then I would agree. But this is AOL/Time Warner now - a company bigger than Microsoft with their hands in a lot more pies that MS. The one thing I hate about society today is the use of the law like this. It use to be, if you fail, try,try,try again but now it is if you fail, sue,sue and sue again. Michael :-)
>they started a rewrite of their browser Actually http://www.mozilla.org is looking pretty good and it is much more than a browser (XUL interface etc.) For the benefit of web designers it is highly standard compliant and cross platform (8+ I think). Other Apps use Mozilla components and Bugzilla is everywhere too. Mozilla as taken a while though :-) Personnally, I use Konquerer which is far better than IE or Netsc/mozilla!! Davy http://www.LateDecember.com
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I don't agree. If Netscape was so good and people bought it, why did they then change to using IE? Michael :-)
Why are they still using IE. I may be wrong but the contract with MS to use IE expired. Why not use their own in-house product. It's hard to argue being crushed by competition when the company doesn't use even use its own products.
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I don't agree. If Netscape was so good and people bought it, why did they then change to using IE? Michael :-)
Michael P Butler wrote: I don't agree. If Netscape was so good and people bought it, why did they then change to using IE? Because IE was free and nearly as good. Then Netscape got all hot under the collar, rushed a browser out (4.0) and suddenly IE was still free and much better. Frankly Netscape dropped the ball. MS did not kick it out of their hands using illegal methods. Notepad and Calculator come with Windows. I don't use them though because there are better, still free, apps out there. So this whole "integration with OS" is illegal thing is bollocks. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
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When Netscape started out, they wre _trying_ to make a better product. Then they were squashed by MS's anti-competitive practices. Am I the only one who remembers that for a while, MS required that IE 4.0 be installed by anyone who wanted to upgrade the Windows Common Controls? Even the courts seem to have missed that one. The problem here is that Netscape never had the opportunity to compete. I agree that they make an inferior product, though that was not always such a clear distinction. If the lawsuit is all they have left, why, more power to them.
Jim A. Johnson wrote: When Netscape started out, they wre _trying_ to make a better product. Then they were squashed by MS's anti-competitive practices *chokes on my "please be nice and let me win" chew toy* Please, Netscape dropped the ball. MS made a better product and it was free from day one. If this whole "it is part of the operating system" was really "anti-competitive" practice then I would still be using Notepad to edit my websites and Calculator (calc.exe) to calculate my spreadsheets from a piece of paper. The fact is I can download much better editors and calculators which are free as well. It comes down to Netscape dropped the ball because they got flustered by just how good IE was becoming. They rushed Netscape 4.0 and things went very down hill from there. MS may be unfair in other areas, but IE was the better product. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
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Why are they still using IE. I may be wrong but the contract with MS to use IE expired. Why not use their own in-house product. It's hard to argue being crushed by competition when the company doesn't use even use its own products.
Mark Nischalke wrote: Why are they still using IE. I may be wrong but the contract with MS to use IE expired. Why not use their own in-house product. Because their inhouse product is not yet ready and is a bit crap? :-D Actually I found a news article about this awhile back and sent it onto Chris, who did not post it ( :-D ), but anyway. Here it is, AOL to use NEtscape in Compuserve v7.0, scary stuff! regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
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Jim A. Johnson wrote: When Netscape started out, they wre _trying_ to make a better product. Then they were squashed by MS's anti-competitive practices *chokes on my "please be nice and let me win" chew toy* Please, Netscape dropped the ball. MS made a better product and it was free from day one. If this whole "it is part of the operating system" was really "anti-competitive" practice then I would still be using Notepad to edit my websites and Calculator (calc.exe) to calculate my spreadsheets from a piece of paper. The fact is I can download much better editors and calculators which are free as well. It comes down to Netscape dropped the ball because they got flustered by just how good IE was becoming. They rushed Netscape 4.0 and things went very down hill from there. MS may be unfair in other areas, but IE was the better product. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
Paul Watson wrote: MS may be unfair in other areas, but IE was the better product. Yeah, this is why it's so murky. At 3.0, Netscape had the better product - at least, it was more mature. at 5.0, MS clearly had the better product. But at 4.0, MS used their muscle to squeeze IE onto people's machine, regardless of whether it was wanted. Doesn't anyone remember how in 1998 (I think), practically every new Windows product had a sticker on it that said "Include IE 4.0"? That is precisely because of MS's licensing agreements at the time, which stated that the comman controls could _not_ be distributed separately from IE. And since the earlier common controls were buggy (for example, the tree control frequently crashed when NULL HTREEITEMs were referenced), and because the newer common controls had more neat features, ISVs were pretty much forced to install IE. Yeah, it's a shame that Netscape is a pawn in the AOL/MS battle. There is a lot of shameful stuff in this business. Right now I have to start rearchitecting my project to be a cross-platform Mac/Windows product, because MS has not been able to overcome its reputation for poor quality in the audio industry; primarily because... well, that's another can of worms.
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Michael P Butler wrote: I don't agree. If Netscape was so good and people bought it, why did they then change to using IE? Because IE was free and nearly as good. Then Netscape got all hot under the collar, rushed a browser out (4.0) and suddenly IE was still free and much better. Frankly Netscape dropped the ball. MS did not kick it out of their hands using illegal methods. Notepad and Calculator come with Windows. I don't use them though because there are better, still free, apps out there. So this whole "integration with OS" is illegal thing is bollocks. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
Paul Watson wrote: Notepad and Calculator come with Windows. I don't use them though because there are better, still free, apps out there. In fact, to be completly honest with you, I probably use those two apps more frequently that I do IE! :omg: I use Notepad to edit everything from quick changes to source code, to tweaking a web page, to editing all of my CodeProject messages (even this one!). ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group, there was less competition there" - Gandhi
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Paul Watson wrote: Notepad and Calculator come with Windows. I don't use them though because there are better, still free, apps out there. In fact, to be completly honest with you, I probably use those two apps more frequently that I do IE! :omg: I use Notepad to edit everything from quick changes to source code, to tweaking a web page, to editing all of my CodeProject messages (even this one!). ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group, there was less competition there" - Gandhi
David Wulff wrote: In fact, to be completly honest with you, I probably use those two apps more frequently that I do IE! :-O ssshhhh same here but don't tell anyone because that would make my arguement about IE vs. Netscape weaker. I wonder why Ed has not sued MS for including Notepad in Windows? I mean surely that is anti-competitive practice in the Text Editor market if IE being in Windows is anti-competitive in the Browser market? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
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>they started a rewrite of their browser Actually http://www.mozilla.org is looking pretty good and it is much more than a browser (XUL interface etc.) For the benefit of web designers it is highly standard compliant and cross platform (8+ I think). Other Apps use Mozilla components and Bugzilla is everywhere too. Mozilla as taken a while though :-) Personnally, I use Konquerer which is far better than IE or Netsc/mozilla!! Davy http://www.LateDecember.com
Davy Mitchell wrote: Personnally, I use Konquerer which is far better than IE or Netsc/mozilla!! Amazing how personal preferences can vary so widely. I tried Konquerer (during one of my Linux trials) and thought, "Wow, this browser really sucks!" I much prefered Opera over the rest (Netscape, Mozzila, Konquerer). In fact, on the Windows platform I rate Opera a VERY close second to IE. There are several features in Opera that I like better than IE, but overall web pages just look better on IE.
Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "Programming is like sex. One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life." - Michael Sinz
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Netscape SOLD web browsers? BZZZZZZ Sorry, but that is the wrong answer. Netscape wasn't in business to sell web browsers. They never actively tried to get money from their largest consumer base. Netscape tried to get money from corporate browser usage and corporate web services. Of course, all this talk about the MS monopoly totally ignores the fact that MS IE beat the pants off of Netscape as far as quality goes. I was a Netscape user until the version 4 disaster. Netscape put out a very buggy version that crashed a LOT. But Netscape crashing doesn't bother anybody. Only when IE crashes do people get upset. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
Tim Smith wrote: But Netscape crashing doesn't bother anybody. Only when IE crashes do people get upset. Strangely that was very true as you say with version 4.0 up until a year or two ago. Then all the web developers went "aaahhh!" and realised just how bad 4.0 really was. Also the whole NEtscape 6.0 First Release debacle did not recieve the same "never mind I will still use Netscape" attitude as 4.0 did. Funny that. More religion coming in? :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
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Does no one remember that Netscape SOLD web browsers? Yes they made mistakes and it is ironic AOL is involved giving they've done most to distribute IE(!!) but their business was unfairly wiped out by MS's monopoly abuse. Davy http://www.LateDecember.com
Netscape SOLD web browsers? BZZZZZZ Sorry, but that is the wrong answer. Netscape wasn't in business to sell web browsers. They never actively tried to get money from their largest consumer base. Netscape tried to get money from corporate browser usage and corporate web services. Of course, all this talk about the MS monopoly totally ignores the fact that MS IE beat the pants off of Netscape as far as quality goes. I was a Netscape user until the version 4 disaster. Netscape put out a very buggy version that crashed a LOT. But Netscape crashing doesn't bother anybody. Only when IE crashes do people get upset. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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Paul Watson wrote: MS may be unfair in other areas, but IE was the better product. Yeah, this is why it's so murky. At 3.0, Netscape had the better product - at least, it was more mature. at 5.0, MS clearly had the better product. But at 4.0, MS used their muscle to squeeze IE onto people's machine, regardless of whether it was wanted. Doesn't anyone remember how in 1998 (I think), practically every new Windows product had a sticker on it that said "Include IE 4.0"? That is precisely because of MS's licensing agreements at the time, which stated that the comman controls could _not_ be distributed separately from IE. And since the earlier common controls were buggy (for example, the tree control frequently crashed when NULL HTREEITEMs were referenced), and because the newer common controls had more neat features, ISVs were pretty much forced to install IE. Yeah, it's a shame that Netscape is a pawn in the AOL/MS battle. There is a lot of shameful stuff in this business. Right now I have to start rearchitecting my project to be a cross-platform Mac/Windows product, because MS has not been able to overcome its reputation for poor quality in the audio industry; primarily because... well, that's another can of worms.
I switched to IE during the V3/V4 time frame. V4 of Netscape was a real piece of trash. I had used Netscape for at least a year but got totally sick of the problems. IE3 didn't have the features of Netscape V4. But at least IE3 ran. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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Michael P Butler wrote: I don't agree. If Netscape was so good and people bought it, why did they then change to using IE? Because IE was free and nearly as good. Then Netscape got all hot under the collar, rushed a browser out (4.0) and suddenly IE was still free and much better. Frankly Netscape dropped the ball. MS did not kick it out of their hands using illegal methods. Notepad and Calculator come with Windows. I don't use them though because there are better, still free, apps out there. So this whole "integration with OS" is illegal thing is bollocks. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
Well I remember a time when the sold IE as well. I know I bought a copy :) It was like $19-$29 USD but I bought it. Remember when you had to buy a TCP/IP stack like TRUMPET or something? Or the chameleon package for $50 USD? Ah, I remember those days! HomeNuke ---- "Nuke'd Your Home, Yet?" Run your own PostNuke based web server from home http://www.homenuke.com
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David Wulff wrote: In fact, to be completly honest with you, I probably use those two apps more frequently that I do IE! :-O ssshhhh same here but don't tell anyone because that would make my arguement about IE vs. Netscape weaker. I wonder why Ed has not sued MS for including Notepad in Windows? I mean surely that is anti-competitive practice in the Text Editor market if IE being in Windows is anti-competitive in the Browser market? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
I think if you analysed it deeply enough, you could find compelling reasons to flag the inclusion of a window-based interface as an illegal anti-competitive practise (providing you work for a company that produces another one). Hell, the inclusion of Windows Explorer is anti-competative as far as the company producing FileBrowser is concerned... "No, don't includ IE, because that is anti-competative, include NN instead." ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group, there was less competition there" - Gandhi
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Well I remember a time when the sold IE as well. I know I bought a copy :) It was like $19-$29 USD but I bought it. Remember when you had to buy a TCP/IP stack like TRUMPET or something? Or the chameleon package for $50 USD? Ah, I remember those days! HomeNuke ---- "Nuke'd Your Home, Yet?" Run your own PostNuke based web server from home http://www.homenuke.com
HomeNuke wrote: Remember when you had to buy a TCP/IP stack like TRUMPET or something? Or the chameleon package for $50 USD? Ah, I remember those days! See that is the weird thing for me. The first browser I ever used was Netscape 4.0 and then I quickly swopped to IE 3.0 and then soon after that IE 4.0. I only had my own modem, or access to a modem, from about 4 years ago! Before that, all 10 years of experience (from when I was 13 till now when I am 23) with computers was based on a non-internet or non-web linked PC. It was all QBasic, Turbo Pascal, Visual Basic stuff. The first "online" thing I ever tried was IRC and then only the web, and it was not that exiting for me back then. Yet after all that I end up being a web developer and evangelising all the web can do for us! All my computing experience though naturally really helped, it just was not online computing experience :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
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I think if you analysed it deeply enough, you could find compelling reasons to flag the inclusion of a window-based interface as an illegal anti-competitive practise (providing you work for a company that produces another one). Hell, the inclusion of Windows Explorer is anti-competative as far as the company producing FileBrowser is concerned... "No, don't includ IE, because that is anti-competative, include NN instead." ________________ David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group, there was less competition there" - Gandhi
David Wulff wrote: Hell, the inclusion of Windows Explorer is anti-competative as far as the company producing FileBrowser is concerned... Yeah exactly, but were do you stop? What about the clock in the bottom right? That comes with Windows and yet there are companies out there making alternatives. What about the quick launch in W2k/XP? I made my own quick launch func-look-alike for W95. Should I now go sue MS for making it part of Windows and uninstallable? I realise MS did do some heavy handed shady business to push IE. No doubt about it. But the backlash and lawsuits are so far out of proportion that it is hard to believe they even got into the courts! IMHO, in Netscape's case they dropped the ball, they cocked up and they are a bunch of snivelling children shouting "he punched me first" who should not be in business but instead should be making open source software were morals and ethics rule the day, not profit making. I want to get on with the business of providing good websites. IE lets me do that and frankly Netscape actually gets in the way of it. David Wulff wrote: "No, don't includ IE, because that is anti-competative, include NN instead." That is how the media report it! Shocking stuff! regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
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I switched to IE during the V3/V4 time frame. V4 of Netscape was a real piece of trash. I had used Netscape for at least a year but got totally sick of the problems. IE3 didn't have the features of Netscape V4. But at least IE3 ran. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
Tim Smith wrote: IE3 didn't have the features of Netscape V4. But at least IE3 ran. Sounds like a normal product based decision to me. Just like all other industries work. Funny how the IT Industry seems to treat its cases as "special" and more of a problem than if it had, lets say, happened in the auto industry. *scratches head* Over the last few days here on CP I have come to the steadfast realisation that IT opinion has nothing to do with practicalities, thinking with the head, and all to do with issues of the heart. It is more religion than science :-D there, I am much happier now. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
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Davy Mitchell wrote: Personnally, I use Konquerer which is far better than IE or Netsc/mozilla!! Amazing how personal preferences can vary so widely. I tried Konquerer (during one of my Linux trials) and thought, "Wow, this browser really sucks!" I much prefered Opera over the rest (Netscape, Mozzila, Konquerer). In fact, on the Windows platform I rate Opera a VERY close second to IE. There are several features in Opera that I like better than IE, but overall web pages just look better on IE.
Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "Programming is like sex. One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life." - Michael Sinz
Mike Mullikin wrote: There are several features in Opera that I like better than IE, but overall web pages just look better on IE. Yeah there is a catch 22 situation for Opera really. The W3C have created their standards which everyone should stick to very strictly. However Netscape and Microsoft didn't, both adding new proprietray features (like LAYERS for Netscape) and also slightly adjusting W3C features. So for instance a DIV would render differently in Netscape, differently in IE and differently in Opera. Now Opera came along and made a firm commitment to the W3C standards. The problem is that all of us web developers have made sites not tailored to the W3C standards but to the Netscape and IE standards. We had to because if we did not then nobody would be able to see our sites properly or at all. For Opera to gain market they need to render both current site NOT written to W3C standards correctly as well as future sites which are written to W3C standards. If they pick only the "future" sites then current sites wont render properly and average money spending people will think "what a crap browser" and not "what a crap site." They would then switch back to IE which shows the site fine. But if Opera don't support W3C standards then future websites won't render properly as IE and Netscape are coming into line with W3C (Netscape with v6.0 sacrificed quite a lot of Netscape supporters by ditching LAYER support.) This whole web thing is so bloody complicated, what a nightmare :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
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HomeNuke wrote: Remember when you had to buy a TCP/IP stack like TRUMPET or something? Or the chameleon package for $50 USD? Ah, I remember those days! See that is the weird thing for me. The first browser I ever used was Netscape 4.0 and then I quickly swopped to IE 3.0 and then soon after that IE 4.0. I only had my own modem, or access to a modem, from about 4 years ago! Before that, all 10 years of experience (from when I was 13 till now when I am 23) with computers was based on a non-internet or non-web linked PC. It was all QBasic, Turbo Pascal, Visual Basic stuff. The first "online" thing I ever tried was IRC and then only the web, and it was not that exiting for me back then. Yet after all that I end up being a web developer and evangelising all the web can do for us! All my computing experience though naturally really helped, it just was not online computing experience :) regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
The same holds true for me. I didn't get started on the web till about four years ago either, and still have the same modem that I bought all that time ago... -- Andrew.