Borrowing code…
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I would normally agree, but take into consideration that releasing code is more than just leaving your door unlocked. It is at least leaving the door unlocked and open with your TV on the threshold. Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that morally stealing is stealing, but asking for it is also asking for it. I am a firm believer that even a victim has to take some personal responsibility. If you withdrawal 1000 dollars form an ATM then walk down a busy city street with it loosely hanging out of your back pocket and get mugged, yes you are a victim, but…. I wonder what the real legal side is.
George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
My Blog[^]
I look at it this way, a code snippet is a far cry from an entire application. If you were to say something very clever and someone else used that in a book (on which they made money) or in a speech (on which they made no money) what would you do? First of all you should feel very good about yourself because someone used your line. One of the worst things that can happen to a person is to have lived an entire lifetime and to have never been quoted. After that you don't have much recourse. No court is going to award you anything just because someone used one of your lines (or even 3 or 4) in a book. Musicians have a similar situation. They are always teaching each other a new riff or chord progression. Sometimes that riff or chord progession will be used in a hit song, but that doesn't mean the originator is going to get anything from it. The only situation that is different is in song and screen writing. If a person is writing a song and someone suggests a phrase or two, then quite often that person will get a credit in the copyright and will make money from it. In screen writing, if you are hired to be a screen writer, you write or even rewrite a few lines and then are fired, you still get a screenwriting credit (you may not get anymore money, but you get the credit). So, like I said, I think it depends on whether it is a code snippet or an entire application. BTW, concerning personal property, around here if I have an old couch, appliance, computer, etc. and I want to get rid of it. I just place it on the curb in front of my house. It will be gone in no time. I don't have to put a sign on it saying "Free, you can take it", I just have to make it available "on the curb", not on the drive or next to my house. So I think it also depends on how or where you make it available.
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Has anyone here done any research into the legality of using source code from an assembly that is not obfuscated? On one had, I always try to respect the IP of others. I know what kind of work goes into a project and would not want someone going through my stuff and making money off of it. I usually treat code as copyrighted unless otherwise noted. I really try to respect that. On the other hand, if someone releases code into the wild that they do not want loose then I think that they have an obligation to take basic measures to stop it. Obfuscation is not difficult and a free tool even comes with VS.NET. If you work for a company in a capacity that causes you to create IP in the name of that company, or even more so if you own your own small company, then I believe you have a fiduciary responsibility to that company (and it's stake/stock holders) to protect that IP. If you don't you get what you deserve. Any rants, flames, opinions?
George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
My Blog[^]
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you want your code 'borrowed' then 'borrow' theirs (you really plan to return it?)...:rolleyes: "He didn't try to stop me" seem a pretty shaky excuse, moral relativism at its best. Theft is theft, it doesn't matter if the owner forgot to lock the door or not, you still steal when you abscond with something from their house.:mad: Anger is the most impotent of passions. It effects nothing it goes about, and hurts the one who is possessed by it more than the one against whom it is directed. Carl Sandburg
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I look at it this way, a code snippet is a far cry from an entire application. If you were to say something very clever and someone else used that in a book (on which they made money) or in a speech (on which they made no money) what would you do? First of all you should feel very good about yourself because someone used your line. One of the worst things that can happen to a person is to have lived an entire lifetime and to have never been quoted. After that you don't have much recourse. No court is going to award you anything just because someone used one of your lines (or even 3 or 4) in a book. Musicians have a similar situation. They are always teaching each other a new riff or chord progression. Sometimes that riff or chord progession will be used in a hit song, but that doesn't mean the originator is going to get anything from it. The only situation that is different is in song and screen writing. If a person is writing a song and someone suggests a phrase or two, then quite often that person will get a credit in the copyright and will make money from it. In screen writing, if you are hired to be a screen writer, you write or even rewrite a few lines and then are fired, you still get a screenwriting credit (you may not get anymore money, but you get the credit). So, like I said, I think it depends on whether it is a code snippet or an entire application. BTW, concerning personal property, around here if I have an old couch, appliance, computer, etc. and I want to get rid of it. I just place it on the curb in front of my house. It will be gone in no time. I don't have to put a sign on it saying "Free, you can take it", I just have to make it available "on the curb", not on the drive or next to my house. So I think it also depends on how or where you make it available.
j1webb wrote: I look at it this way, a code snippet is a far cry from an entire application. Read the license that came with the application. I'd be willing to bet there is a prohibition on reverse-engineering (and decompiling the code with ildasm or anakrino is just that) and partial or complete use. I have yet to see a license that says "you can decompile this and use any tidbits you find interesting, useful or novel in your own products without asking us" Theft is theft, circumstance or convenience don't make it something else... Anger is the most impotent of passions. It effects nothing it goes about, and hurts the one who is possessed by it more than the one against whom it is directed. Carl Sandburg
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Has anyone here done any research into the legality of using source code from an assembly that is not obfuscated? On one had, I always try to respect the IP of others. I know what kind of work goes into a project and would not want someone going through my stuff and making money off of it. I usually treat code as copyrighted unless otherwise noted. I really try to respect that. On the other hand, if someone releases code into the wild that they do not want loose then I think that they have an obligation to take basic measures to stop it. Obfuscation is not difficult and a free tool even comes with VS.NET. If you work for a company in a capacity that causes you to create IP in the name of that company, or even more so if you own your own small company, then I believe you have a fiduciary responsibility to that company (and it's stake/stock holders) to protect that IP. If you don't you get what you deserve. Any rants, flames, opinions?
George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
My Blog[^]
Ray Cassick wrote: Has anyone here done any research into the legality of using source code from an assembly that is not obfuscated? Well, no, but I do know that it's illegal to sell other people's writings, even though they aren't obfuscated. ----------------------------------------------------- Empires Of Steel[^] It was very nice of our loving Designer to design an immune system to protect us from the deadly diseases He designed.
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Has anyone here done any research into the legality of using source code from an assembly that is not obfuscated? On one had, I always try to respect the IP of others. I know what kind of work goes into a project and would not want someone going through my stuff and making money off of it. I usually treat code as copyrighted unless otherwise noted. I really try to respect that. On the other hand, if someone releases code into the wild that they do not want loose then I think that they have an obligation to take basic measures to stop it. Obfuscation is not difficult and a free tool even comes with VS.NET. If you work for a company in a capacity that causes you to create IP in the name of that company, or even more so if you own your own small company, then I believe you have a fiduciary responsibility to that company (and it's stake/stock holders) to protect that IP. If you don't you get what you deserve. Any rants, flames, opinions?
George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
My Blog[^]
This is funny because just three days ago I had something wierd happen. I was sitting in a class and saw a powerpoint presentation, the theme of the ppt was identical to one I had created a few yrs back. While this isn't code I guess the same principles apply. Regardz Colin J Davies The most LinkedIn CPian (that I know of anyhow) :-)
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I look at it this way, a code snippet is a far cry from an entire application. If you were to say something very clever and someone else used that in a book (on which they made money) or in a speech (on which they made no money) what would you do? First of all you should feel very good about yourself because someone used your line. One of the worst things that can happen to a person is to have lived an entire lifetime and to have never been quoted. After that you don't have much recourse. No court is going to award you anything just because someone used one of your lines (or even 3 or 4) in a book. Musicians have a similar situation. They are always teaching each other a new riff or chord progression. Sometimes that riff or chord progession will be used in a hit song, but that doesn't mean the originator is going to get anything from it. The only situation that is different is in song and screen writing. If a person is writing a song and someone suggests a phrase or two, then quite often that person will get a credit in the copyright and will make money from it. In screen writing, if you are hired to be a screen writer, you write or even rewrite a few lines and then are fired, you still get a screenwriting credit (you may not get anymore money, but you get the credit). So, like I said, I think it depends on whether it is a code snippet or an entire application. BTW, concerning personal property, around here if I have an old couch, appliance, computer, etc. and I want to get rid of it. I just place it on the curb in front of my house. It will be gone in no time. I don't have to put a sign on it saying "Free, you can take it", I just have to make it available "on the curb", not on the drive or next to my house. So I think it also depends on how or where you make it available.
j1webb wrote: Musicians have a similar situation. Not really. Musicians and authors don't have the luxury or opportunity to hide their IP like programmers do. It is intended for public consumption so they need to rely on other protection methods. I equate the release of non-obfuscated code to printing out source and carelessly leaving it on a bench in some public place. Is it wrong to use it if you find it? Yes, morally it is, but you were careless. This tome is similar to the way people can loose patents on things. According to my attorney, once you have a patent, if you allow people to infringe without making an attempt to stop them (or make licensing agreements) then you can, if challenged, lose the right to patent. I have been told that this can also come from not properly protecting your IP assets. At Intel we have different color documents (red, yellow, etc..) that indicate various security rights associated with them. Careless use of these documents can lead to Intel losing the right to fight a patent infringement case. Why really should releasing non-obfuscated code be any different? On non-managed languages (standard C++ for example) the machine code is not considered really open to the eye, but running it through a decompiler and using the code that way is considered stealing because you can place statements as such in the EULA to cover you. Decompiling in that case is an overt act to obtain what is not readily obtainable. Opening a copy of an assembly in Reflector and viewing raw code however might not be considered an over act of decompilation. You might also make the argument that perhaps using Reflector IS an overt act simply because it converts the IL back to readable code (such as a decompiler takes the binary back to somewhat readable assembly) but then what about using ILDASM? The law can be a touchy thing.
George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
My Blog[^]
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This is funny because just three days ago I had something wierd happen. I was sitting in a class and saw a powerpoint presentation, the theme of the ppt was identical to one I had created a few yrs back. While this isn't code I guess the same principles apply. Regardz Colin J Davies The most LinkedIn CPian (that I know of anyhow) :-)
I can't count the number of graphics that I have created over the years for where ai work that have ended up working thier way into other companies documentation. In a way it irks me, but then again I can point to that and say 'it is mine, they thougth it was good enough to use it' and I have to admit that it ends up being a bit flattering. But I know what you mean... I did a drawing in Highschool and sold it to someone for a few bucks, then latter on found out that they entered it into a contest and thiers and won. I was pissed, but it was my decision to sell it and I had not marked it well enough... Careless me.
George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
My Blog[^]
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If my neighbour leaves his house open when he goes out, I watch out for him, I don't steal his TV. I had an argument with my mother in law last night. She's advising me that when I go to Singapore in a few weeks, I should buy lots of DVD's and video games. I said no way, that's stealing. She can't understand what I mean, no matter how I try to explain it to her. I'd expect anyone who is involved in creating IP to know better. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
Christian Graus wrote: She's advising me that when I go to Singapore in a few weeks, I should buy lots of DVD's and video games. I said no way, that's stealing. Er, CG, you can purchase legal DVDs and Games in Sgpore, though it'll probably be tough to locate a shop that's not selling pirated stuff :-) Nish
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I would normally agree, but take into consideration that releasing code is more than just leaving your door unlocked. It is at least leaving the door unlocked and open with your TV on the threshold. Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that morally stealing is stealing, but asking for it is also asking for it. I am a firm believer that even a victim has to take some personal responsibility. If you withdrawal 1000 dollars form an ATM then walk down a busy city street with it loosely hanging out of your back pocket and get mugged, yes you are a victim, but…. I wonder what the real legal side is.
George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
My Blog[^]
Ray Cassick wrote: If you withdrawal 1000 dollars form an ATM then walk down a busy city street with it loosely hanging out of your back pocket and get mugged, yes you are a victim, but…. Well, in some countries if a female dress in such a way as to reveal her neck, her legs or showing her cleavage with low cut dress, and she is raped, following your rationale, yes she is a victim, but she asks for it? Do you agree if the perpetrator is caught and then given a lenient sentence? What if she is some one close to you? You see, we need the law to live in this world with dignity. A law abiding citizen will live according to the law of the land, a crook will try to justify his act with any excuses he can think of. It is not a line drawing game, the line has been drawn; the law. It is about which side of the line that you are standing on. Cheers Yongki C.A. Adisasta Software<
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Has anyone here done any research into the legality of using source code from an assembly that is not obfuscated? On one had, I always try to respect the IP of others. I know what kind of work goes into a project and would not want someone going through my stuff and making money off of it. I usually treat code as copyrighted unless otherwise noted. I really try to respect that. On the other hand, if someone releases code into the wild that they do not want loose then I think that they have an obligation to take basic measures to stop it. Obfuscation is not difficult and a free tool even comes with VS.NET. If you work for a company in a capacity that causes you to create IP in the name of that company, or even more so if you own your own small company, then I believe you have a fiduciary responsibility to that company (and it's stake/stock holders) to protect that IP. If you don't you get what you deserve. Any rants, flames, opinions?
George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
My Blog[^]
What do you mean by "using"? Copying huge chunks verbatim into your own apps? Yeah, that's a no-no. Reading in order to better understand how the code works? That's probably fine. Keep in mind though, laws regarding reverse engineering vary widely by country - what might be standard business practice one place could get you fined heavily elsewhere.
Shog9
I'm not the Jack of Diamonds... I'm not the six of spades. I don't know what you thought; I'm not your astronaut...
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Has anyone here done any research into the legality of using source code from an assembly that is not obfuscated? On one had, I always try to respect the IP of others. I know what kind of work goes into a project and would not want someone going through my stuff and making money off of it. I usually treat code as copyrighted unless otherwise noted. I really try to respect that. On the other hand, if someone releases code into the wild that they do not want loose then I think that they have an obligation to take basic measures to stop it. Obfuscation is not difficult and a free tool even comes with VS.NET. If you work for a company in a capacity that causes you to create IP in the name of that company, or even more so if you own your own small company, then I believe you have a fiduciary responsibility to that company (and it's stake/stock holders) to protect that IP. If you don't you get what you deserve. Any rants, flames, opinions?
George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
My Blog[^]
Plz Send me code or Algo for searching image nd storing image using Image Indexing( Multidimentional Indexing).Nd Tell Me Which Searching Algo is better to use for image search. its manish Gupta
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I would normally agree, but take into consideration that releasing code is more than just leaving your door unlocked. It is at least leaving the door unlocked and open with your TV on the threshold. Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that morally stealing is stealing, but asking for it is also asking for it. I am a firm believer that even a victim has to take some personal responsibility. If you withdrawal 1000 dollars form an ATM then walk down a busy city street with it loosely hanging out of your back pocket and get mugged, yes you are a victim, but…. I wonder what the real legal side is.
George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
My Blog[^]
Does the license agreement say you can reverse engineer the assembly? If it doesn't then you should not. The company that released the code can sue you for copyright infringement if you do reverse engineer it (no matter how easy it might be to reverse engineer) and then use the code you've found.
My: Blog | Photos | Next SQL Presentation WDevs.com - Open Source Code Hosting, Blogs, FTP, Mail and More
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I look at it this way, a code snippet is a far cry from an entire application. If you were to say something very clever and someone else used that in a book (on which they made money) or in a speech (on which they made no money) what would you do? First of all you should feel very good about yourself because someone used your line. One of the worst things that can happen to a person is to have lived an entire lifetime and to have never been quoted. After that you don't have much recourse. No court is going to award you anything just because someone used one of your lines (or even 3 or 4) in a book. Musicians have a similar situation. They are always teaching each other a new riff or chord progression. Sometimes that riff or chord progession will be used in a hit song, but that doesn't mean the originator is going to get anything from it. The only situation that is different is in song and screen writing. If a person is writing a song and someone suggests a phrase or two, then quite often that person will get a credit in the copyright and will make money from it. In screen writing, if you are hired to be a screen writer, you write or even rewrite a few lines and then are fired, you still get a screenwriting credit (you may not get anymore money, but you get the credit). So, like I said, I think it depends on whether it is a code snippet or an entire application. BTW, concerning personal property, around here if I have an old couch, appliance, computer, etc. and I want to get rid of it. I just place it on the curb in front of my house. It will be gone in no time. I don't have to put a sign on it saying "Free, you can take it", I just have to make it available "on the curb", not on the drive or next to my house. So I think it also depends on how or where you make it available.
j1webb wrote: First of all you should feel very good about yourself because someone used your line "Should" doesn't cut it. People shouldn't have to do anything they don't want to. Don't tell me what I "should" or "should" not do.
My: Blog | Photos | Next SQL Presentation WDevs.com - Open Source Code Hosting, Blogs, FTP, Mail and More
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Has anyone here done any research into the legality of using source code from an assembly that is not obfuscated? On one had, I always try to respect the IP of others. I know what kind of work goes into a project and would not want someone going through my stuff and making money off of it. I usually treat code as copyrighted unless otherwise noted. I really try to respect that. On the other hand, if someone releases code into the wild that they do not want loose then I think that they have an obligation to take basic measures to stop it. Obfuscation is not difficult and a free tool even comes with VS.NET. If you work for a company in a capacity that causes you to create IP in the name of that company, or even more so if you own your own small company, then I believe you have a fiduciary responsibility to that company (and it's stake/stock holders) to protect that IP. If you don't you get what you deserve. Any rants, flames, opinions?
George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
My Blog[^]
How much protection do you have to add before you consider it _not ok_ to steal it? ripping code from an unobfuscated assembly is ok according to you. because you know how to go from il -> source code , so you dont consider it protected.. what if someone do obfuscate their code but what if I have a really wicked decompiler that can handle that... is it ok form me to decompile and use that code then? I mean , its not protected according to me since my decompiler can handle it easily. if someone publish a compiled native c++ lib. and some other guy here is a guru of asm and c++ and can manually decompile the dll into c++. would that be ok to? I mean , its not protected according to that guy. //Roger
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If my neighbour leaves his house open when he goes out, I watch out for him, I don't steal his TV. I had an argument with my mother in law last night. She's advising me that when I go to Singapore in a few weeks, I should buy lots of DVD's and video games. I said no way, that's stealing. She can't understand what I mean, no matter how I try to explain it to her. I'd expect anyone who is involved in creating IP to know better. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
Christian Graus wrote: I should buy lots of DVD's and video games. I said no way, that's stealing. this one I don't understand really..?? You buy it, which means you PAY for a product, the fact that it comes out sooner there than here is not your fault, besides, eventually it's not cheaper, you had to pay for the trip and if you import it in larger amounts you'll probably have to pay income tax also. Sorry I just don't see way this would be stealin'... No hurries, no worries.
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Christian Graus wrote: I should buy lots of DVD's and video games. I said no way, that's stealing. this one I don't understand really..?? You buy it, which means you PAY for a product, the fact that it comes out sooner there than here is not your fault, besides, eventually it's not cheaper, you had to pay for the trip and if you import it in larger amounts you'll probably have to pay income tax also. Sorry I just don't see way this would be stealin'... No hurries, no worries.
V. wrote: Sorry I just don't see way this would be stealin'... Knowingly purchasing stolen goods is just as bad as stealing it yourself according to the law in most western countries. If you didn't know it was stolen, you'll have to surrender it but you won't get penalised.
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
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Christian Graus wrote: I should buy lots of DVD's and video games. I said no way, that's stealing. this one I don't understand really..?? You buy it, which means you PAY for a product, the fact that it comes out sooner there than here is not your fault, besides, eventually it's not cheaper, you had to pay for the trip and if you import it in larger amounts you'll probably have to pay income tax also. Sorry I just don't see way this would be stealin'... No hurries, no worries.
V. wrote: Christian Graus wrote: I should buy lots of DVD's and video games. I said no way, that's stealing. this one I don't understand really..?? You buy it, which means you PAY for a product I think he's thinking of all the copied DVD's and programs that you can by really cheap. You can buy a DVD without menu, subtiles etc for a very small amount, 2003Server for 10 euro, Windows XP for 5 euros and so on. Do you think that is legal copies you're buying? A year ago I saw "The leagu of extraor..." that a friend purchased in Thailand. The picture quality wasn't the best (to put it mildly), no menu, only one subtitle(swedish) that you couldn't turn off. But all in all it was a good movie, but only thanks to the subtitle. Half the movie had subtiles and only about 20% of that was correct. Somtimes the actors could speak for minutes without any subtitle and then it would show some gibberish for a while(quite funny som times:laugh:). Do you tink this DVd that cost 5% of the price in sweden was made by the movie company or copied?
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V. wrote: Sorry I just don't see way this would be stealin'... Knowingly purchasing stolen goods is just as bad as stealing it yourself according to the law in most western countries. If you didn't know it was stolen, you'll have to surrender it but you won't get penalised.
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
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V. wrote: Christian Graus wrote: I should buy lots of DVD's and video games. I said no way, that's stealing. this one I don't understand really..?? You buy it, which means you PAY for a product I think he's thinking of all the copied DVD's and programs that you can by really cheap. You can buy a DVD without menu, subtiles etc for a very small amount, 2003Server for 10 euro, Windows XP for 5 euros and so on. Do you think that is legal copies you're buying? A year ago I saw "The leagu of extraor..." that a friend purchased in Thailand. The picture quality wasn't the best (to put it mildly), no menu, only one subtitle(swedish) that you couldn't turn off. But all in all it was a good movie, but only thanks to the subtitle. Half the movie had subtiles and only about 20% of that was correct. Somtimes the actors could speak for minutes without any subtitle and then it would show some gibberish for a while(quite funny som times:laugh:). Do you tink this DVd that cost 5% of the price in sweden was made by the movie company or copied?
apparently I misunderstood, I thought he ment buying in a regular store :-). Marcus_2 wrote: Do you think that is legal copies you're buying? I can do/say stupid things, but don't judge a book by his cover. Normally I don't say nonsense (I think) :-> No hurries, no worries.
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j1webb wrote: I look at it this way, a code snippet is a far cry from an entire application. Read the license that came with the application. I'd be willing to bet there is a prohibition on reverse-engineering (and decompiling the code with ildasm or anakrino is just that) and partial or complete use. I have yet to see a license that says "you can decompile this and use any tidbits you find interesting, useful or novel in your own products without asking us" Theft is theft, circumstance or convenience don't make it something else... Anger is the most impotent of passions. It effects nothing it goes about, and hurts the one who is possessed by it more than the one against whom it is directed. Carl Sandburg
IIRC, UK copyright law makes an exception for reverse engineering, but for the purpose of compatibility only. Which makes my reverse-engineering of an OEM's 'friendly' API so that I could work out how to bypass it (to avoid the synchronisation bugs) a little bit dodgy... Stability. What an interesting concept. -- Chris Maunder