Borrowing code…
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Has anyone here done any research into the legality of using source code from an assembly that is not obfuscated? On one had, I always try to respect the IP of others. I know what kind of work goes into a project and would not want someone going through my stuff and making money off of it. I usually treat code as copyrighted unless otherwise noted. I really try to respect that. On the other hand, if someone releases code into the wild that they do not want loose then I think that they have an obligation to take basic measures to stop it. Obfuscation is not difficult and a free tool even comes with VS.NET. If you work for a company in a capacity that causes you to create IP in the name of that company, or even more so if you own your own small company, then I believe you have a fiduciary responsibility to that company (and it's stake/stock holders) to protect that IP. If you don't you get what you deserve. Any rants, flames, opinions?
George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
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Ray Cassick wrote: Any rants, flames, opinions? Most C# code today is business logic. Sorry if that sounds routine, I dont mean to flame anyone. The value of code at this layer is minimal. If I were a top-notch code thief my top targets today would be. 1. Google File System 2. Real Player Codecs, Real Server streaming 3. Oracle Cluster File system 4. Ciscos IOS (already stolen by Huawei) 5. Many DSP patented algorithm 6. Commercial Game Engines for Madden NFL 2005, Unreal etc and so forth.. All the above are written in C/C++. Decompiling C or C++ is orders of magnitude more difficult than C#/Java. I cant think of such high value applications in C# or Java. Can you name some that would be worth stealing ?
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Has anyone here done any research into the legality of using source code from an assembly that is not obfuscated? On one had, I always try to respect the IP of others. I know what kind of work goes into a project and would not want someone going through my stuff and making money off of it. I usually treat code as copyrighted unless otherwise noted. I really try to respect that. On the other hand, if someone releases code into the wild that they do not want loose then I think that they have an obligation to take basic measures to stop it. Obfuscation is not difficult and a free tool even comes with VS.NET. If you work for a company in a capacity that causes you to create IP in the name of that company, or even more so if you own your own small company, then I believe you have a fiduciary responsibility to that company (and it's stake/stock holders) to protect that IP. If you don't you get what you deserve. Any rants, flames, opinions?
George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
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Ray Cassick wrote: if someone releases code into the wild that they do not want loose then I think that they have an obligation to take basic measures to stop it. Have you ever tried reading an obfuscated book? I think you get my point. Marc MyXaml Advanced Unit Testing YAPO
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If my neighbour leaves his house open when he goes out, I watch out for him, I don't steal his TV. I had an argument with my mother in law last night. She's advising me that when I go to Singapore in a few weeks, I should buy lots of DVD's and video games. I said no way, that's stealing. She can't understand what I mean, no matter how I try to explain it to her. I'd expect anyone who is involved in creating IP to know better. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
Christian Graus wrote: I had an argument with my mother in law last night. She's advising me that when I go to Singapore in a few weeks, I should buy lots of DVD's and video games. If it is sold legally in the country, why is it stealing? It is taking advantages of uneven levels of living standards in different countries. People can buy things real cheap from your own country and know very well they are most likely made in a third world country by a under aged worker (which is illegal in your country). I bet most of the under aged workers will hate you if you decide not to "steal" from them.
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Christian Graus wrote: I had an argument with my mother in law last night. She's advising me that when I go to Singapore in a few weeks, I should buy lots of DVD's and video games. If it is sold legally in the country, why is it stealing? It is taking advantages of uneven levels of living standards in different countries. People can buy things real cheap from your own country and know very well they are most likely made in a third world country by a under aged worker (which is illegal in your country). I bet most of the under aged workers will hate you if you decide not to "steal" from them.
Because they are pirate copies. In Hong Kong there is a market which sells nothing but pirate and counterfeit goods. The police raid it now and then but the sellers make so much money they aren't bothered. And yes, a few links up the chain it's criminal gangs behind most of these. The tigress is here :-D
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I would normally agree, but take into consideration that releasing code is more than just leaving your door unlocked. It is at least leaving the door unlocked and open with your TV on the threshold. Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that morally stealing is stealing, but asking for it is also asking for it. I am a firm believer that even a victim has to take some personal responsibility. If you withdrawal 1000 dollars form an ATM then walk down a busy city street with it loosely hanging out of your back pocket and get mugged, yes you are a victim, but…. I wonder what the real legal side is.
George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
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Ray Cassick wrote: I wonder what the real legal side is. The real legal side is as I stated - just because something is made available for theft doesn't give you any rights to steal it. Even if the owner prohibts you from reverse engineering their product and you get something like the EU's 'compatability clause' on your side you still can't use their property for any other purpose. The owner is where the IP rights start and stop so you need to ask them for permission to do what you want to do.
Ðavid Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Audioscrobbler :: flikrDie Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen
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Because they are pirate copies. In Hong Kong there is a market which sells nothing but pirate and counterfeit goods. The police raid it now and then but the sellers make so much money they aren't bothered. And yes, a few links up the chain it's criminal gangs behind most of these. The tigress is here :-D
Trollslayer wrote: a few links up the chain it's criminal gangs behind most of these. I'd wager they are behind all of them. Even the small guy selling DVDs at the local market has to buy his stock from somewhere and invariably that comes from organised criminal gangs.
Ðavid Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Audioscrobbler :: flikrDie Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen
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Christian Graus wrote: I had an argument with my mother in law last night. She's advising me that when I go to Singapore in a few weeks, I should buy lots of DVD's and video games. If it is sold legally in the country, why is it stealing? It is taking advantages of uneven levels of living standards in different countries. People can buy things real cheap from your own country and know very well they are most likely made in a third world country by a under aged worker (which is illegal in your country). I bet most of the under aged workers will hate you if you decide not to "steal" from them.
As Trollslayer says "They are priated copies" As far as my usage goes. Given my countries laws honors the IP of the software, legally purchased or not. It is Illegal for me to use unlicensed copies. It is theft from the owner. I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that can think of.
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If my neighbour leaves his house open when he goes out, I watch out for him, I don't steal his TV. I had an argument with my mother in law last night. She's advising me that when I go to Singapore in a few weeks, I should buy lots of DVD's and video games. I said no way, that's stealing. She can't understand what I mean, no matter how I try to explain it to her. I'd expect anyone who is involved in creating IP to know better. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer
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Has anyone here done any research into the legality of using source code from an assembly that is not obfuscated? On one had, I always try to respect the IP of others. I know what kind of work goes into a project and would not want someone going through my stuff and making money off of it. I usually treat code as copyrighted unless otherwise noted. I really try to respect that. On the other hand, if someone releases code into the wild that they do not want loose then I think that they have an obligation to take basic measures to stop it. Obfuscation is not difficult and a free tool even comes with VS.NET. If you work for a company in a capacity that causes you to create IP in the name of that company, or even more so if you own your own small company, then I believe you have a fiduciary responsibility to that company (and it's stake/stock holders) to protect that IP. If you don't you get what you deserve. Any rants, flames, opinions?
George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
My Blog[^]
This is all in the US. A copyright notice has to be given for something to be copyrighted. And more importantly, something that is to be copyrighted should be submitted to the copyright office. Most assemblies or applications released have a copyright put on them in the assembly file or EULA. Second, compiling the binary is the person's way of concealing the original source, whether or not it is difficult to reengineer. Just because you can easily reverse engineer it, doesn't make it legal. Third, if I remember correctly you CAN black box reverse engineer things. This means you can look at the expected input, and output and duplicate algorithms that give you those results as long as you don't look at the 'guts' (for lack of a better word) of the 'product'. This is one of the big things with the MONO project. They are black box reverse engineering the .NET Framework. Anyone that has decompiled the .NET Framework or SSCL cannot work on the project. There was mention of using someone's words from a book or article. There is legal president to use small sections of a book in another article without permission, BUT the sections have to be publicly given credit. If this is not done, it is concidered plagiarism. And finally, for something to be given away it must have a donitive intent. If someone posts there source code up on the net, but it doesn't appear that they are donating the code to you, you can't use it. In any case, all that being said, good luck proving that someone stole your code. Unless someone literally took all of your files and comments in the exact order, then publicly made it known they stole your code, I think it would be hard to prove the stealing of IP. - Drew
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Ray Cassick wrote: Any rants, flames, opinions? Most C# code today is business logic. Sorry if that sounds routine, I dont mean to flame anyone. The value of code at this layer is minimal. If I were a top-notch code thief my top targets today would be. 1. Google File System 2. Real Player Codecs, Real Server streaming 3. Oracle Cluster File system 4. Ciscos IOS (already stolen by Huawei) 5. Many DSP patented algorithm 6. Commercial Game Engines for Madden NFL 2005, Unreal etc and so forth.. All the above are written in C/C++. Decompiling C or C++ is orders of magnitude more difficult than C#/Java. I cant think of such high value applications in C# or Java. Can you name some that would be worth stealing ?
Vivek Rajan wrote: Many DSP patented algorithm If it is patented then surely all you need to do is get a copy of the patent from the patent office?
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Christian Graus wrote: I should buy lots of DVD's and video games. I said no way, that's stealing. this one I don't understand really..?? You buy it, which means you PAY for a product, the fact that it comes out sooner there than here is not your fault, besides, eventually it's not cheaper, you had to pay for the trip and if you import it in larger amounts you'll probably have to pay income tax also. Sorry I just don't see way this would be stealin'... No hurries, no worries.
It would be stealing because we're talking about a country where illegal copies are openly sold. I don't care if I paid for them, if the copyright owner doesn't get any of the money, it's stealing, and worse than downloading it off the web, because you've paid a pirate. Christian I have several lifelong friends that are New Yorkers but I have always gravitated toward the weirdo's. - Richard Stringer