Sad State of Education
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I'm not underestimating the social impact of school, I just know that there are many ways other than a public (or private) school to get that same impact. Some examples would be church, clubs, sports, neighbor kids, etc. Besides, in large schools the kids really only hang around with their relatively small group of friends anyway. John
Well, I guess we have a slight difference of opinion here :). I don't think that seeing kids in a club for one hour a week is the same as seeing the same kids for 9 hours a day every day for at least a year. Again, I don't think that church, clubs, etc at a bad thing (on the contrary!), I just think they are not a replacement. John Fisher wrote: the kids really only hang around with their relatively small group of friends anyway. Right on. But they are the ones that choose who to hang out with (or have it dicated to them, but that's a different social lesson). And most kids 'change' friends over the years, as they evolve. -Oz --- Grab WndTabs from http://www.wndtabs.com to make your VC++ experience that much more comfortable...
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I quite agree, John. I hate to sound paranoid, but does it occur to you that one of the first steps toward subjugating a society is to first control what the people know? Just because I'm paranoid doesn't necessarily mean that they're not out to get me... I was raised in California, before it became another Peoples' Republic, at a time when it had one of the finest educational systems in the world. It has since degenerated into a polically correct propaganda dispenser that teaches little but the liberal agenda. Here in Arizona I was at first appalled by the ignorance of the young, until I met some teachers. We can't even pass a law requiring a standardized test, primarily because the teachers can't pass it! :mad: So what can be done? I don't know how to reverse the trend so long as the Great Unwashed continue to vote for tea and circuses. For my part, I do a lot of volunteer work with children, and try to pass on the value of education and knowledge to them. Happily I find that their thirst for knowledge is still as great as my own was at that age. Hopefully they will find the knowledge they need to survive somewhere outside of the schools. Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.
Roger Wright wrote: Just because I'm paranoid doesn't necessarily mean that they're not out to get me... Charles Bronson... Crivo Automated Credit Assessment
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1. It's hard to imagine that two parents can match the breadth of subjects taught in a formal school. (ie. The kids may be math whizzes because daddy is a programmer, but may not know how to conjugate a verb or write an organized paragraph). There's always tutors to take up the slack for subjects in which the parents may consider themselves to be weak. 2. The kids miss the social interaction they would normally see in a school. If by social interaction, you mean apathy, violence, drugs, and sex, is this an entirely negative consideration? 3. Lack of direct exposure to different cultures and races. You mean like in California where they have muslim sensitivity classes where the kids are taught part of the quran, and are required to take on a muslim name (while in the class)? the same state that required the removal of christian prayer from the classroom, or the benediction prior to graduation ceremonies? Seems like they're being force-fed cultural differences and at the tip of the sword of double-standards. 4. Lack of extra-ciricular activities (music, sports, etc..) Why are you making such broad assumptions? Are you suggesting that the school system knows better about how to educate our children than do the parents? It's pretty obvious to me that the schools are any better equuipped to handle this task than anyone else I've met. "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: Why are you making such broad assumptions? Are you suggesting that the school system knows better about how to educate our children than do the parents? It's pretty obvious to me that the schools are any better equuipped to handle this task than anyone else I've met. No assumptions, just concerns. I did not mean to imply that all homeschooling would always result in all my concerns. I also know of a few families that have tried homeschooling. One family lasted 1 semester, another 1 year and the last 2 years. In all three cases the parents completely underestimated the amount of time and effort involved. They bought a few books and supplies and thought "this is easy". Needless to say they found out the hard way and their children suffered the consequences. Nearly all of them returned to public school at below average levels. Across the three families they suffered varying degrees of all four of my listed concerns.
Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "Programming is like sex. One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life." - Michael Sinz
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Tim Lesher wrote: Actually, we're considering homeschooling for exactly the same reason. I have a hard time imagining that we can't teach a sane superset of what the public education system requires... FWIW - Some concerns I've had about the whole homeschooling process: 1. It's hard to imagine that two parents can match the breadth of subjects taught in a formal school. (ie. The kids may be math whizzes because daddy is a programmer, but may not know how to conjugate a verb or write an organized paragraph). 2. The kids miss the social interaction they would normally see in a school. 3. Lack of direct exposure to different cultures and races. 4. Lack of extra-ciricular activities (music, sports, etc..)
Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "Programming is like sex. One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life." - Michael Sinz
Mike Mullikin wrote: 1. It's hard to imagine that two parents can match the breadth Why? Aren't we talkin about elementary to high school? I'm a parent. I'd say I have to do a good 33% of the work to get my kids "smart". The reason I send em to school is so they can learn the problems and solutions to getting along with other kids - social skills. Math and language arts and history are a breeze compared to that... If you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself. You can't really expect public schooling to be more than JUST adequate. That's all I expect it to be. Especially considering how much teachers make and how they're treated... ...Steve http://hazels.freeservers.com
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Jamie Hale wrote: It's totally legal, apparently Unfortunatley, and I really wish you were right, you are wrong. The police issued a warning to "all hopefules" that any theft/crime deterant device is not allowed to by design injure or kill a criminal. They did that about three days after the show showing the flame thrower. Apparently they got thousands of calls asking if it was legal. You see, in SA, criminals are treated with more respect by the law than non-criminals. A gun or stun-gun apparently are not "theft/crime deterant" devices but rather "assault devices." They are legal. Go figure. Jamie Hale wrote: mind you if your assailant dies, you can be charged with manslaughter If you so much as scrape them, you get locked up. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Martin Marvinski wrote: Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea Do you Sonork? I do! 100.9903 Stormfront
Lurvely. Here in Canada, if you get car-jacked, it's your civic duty to offer to have the car tuned and cleaned for them whilst appologizing profusely for not being able to provide a fancier vehicle for them to steal. Plus, Miss Manners insists you should offer to take them to dinner and a show. J
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Mike Mullikin wrote: 1. It's hard to imagine that two parents can match the breadth Why? Aren't we talkin about elementary to high school? I'm a parent. I'd say I have to do a good 33% of the work to get my kids "smart". The reason I send em to school is so they can learn the problems and solutions to getting along with other kids - social skills. Math and language arts and history are a breeze compared to that... If you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself. You can't really expect public schooling to be more than JUST adequate. That's all I expect it to be. Especially considering how much teachers make and how they're treated... ...Steve http://hazels.freeservers.com
Steve Hazel wrote: Aren't we talkin about elementary to high school? I'm a parent. I'd say I have to do a good 33% of the work to get my kids "smart". The reason I send em to school is so they can learn the problems and solutions to getting along with other kids - social skills. Math and language arts and history are a breeze compared to that... I agree 100% that parents need to take an active part in their child's education. I have two children (6th and 9th grades) that excel in public school. Both are also very active in music, drama and sports as well. We have strict rules about getting assignments done on time and I often question them about what topics they are covering in various subjects and expand their knowledge where needed. I agree that there are some pretty poor teachers out there, but there are also some pretty good ones. I graduated high school almost 21 years ago and I still remember a half dozen teachers that really had a major positive effect on my education. I just don't think that homeschooling is as easy as some imply. I know that personally I am not prepared to teach my children proper english (conjugation of verbs, detailed sentence structure, expository writing, etc...). I'm very weak in biology and chemistry. Neither me nor my wife are musically inclined, yet both our kids read music and play multiple instruments. Although I can program and do somewhat complex mathematics (trig & calculus) I have a difficult time teaching either. I've seen three seperate families try (and fail) at homeschooling and in a couple cases the children are still paying the penalty today. Homeschooling is NOT a decision to be made lightly or quickly.
Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "Programming is like sex. One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life." - Michael Sinz
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That settles it. When I have kids, I'm sending them to a private school. "What would this country be without this great land of our?" -Ronald Reagan
Do what I do, home educate all your children. I believe it is an insult to your children to force them to attend a public school in the US. I do not accept the argument that you cannot afford to send your children to private schools or that both you and your wife must work, which prevents home schooling. I have lived all over this country, and with the possible exception of elementary grade Texas schools, they are all very substandard. They continually lower their teaching standards so that other unfortunates can keep up and make passing grades, which reduces the quality of teaching to other students who are prepared when they enter the school systems. The Texas school systems understand this and offer somewhat remedies for this. California is the absolute worst. This political correctness in this country is making me dammed angry thanks to those fuc*ing liberals!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
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Tim Lesher wrote: Actually, we're considering homeschooling for exactly the same reason. I have a hard time imagining that we can't teach a sane superset of what the public education system requires... FWIW - Some concerns I've had about the whole homeschooling process: 1. It's hard to imagine that two parents can match the breadth of subjects taught in a formal school. (ie. The kids may be math whizzes because daddy is a programmer, but may not know how to conjugate a verb or write an organized paragraph). 2. The kids miss the social interaction they would normally see in a school. 3. Lack of direct exposure to different cultures and races. 4. Lack of extra-ciricular activities (music, sports, etc..)
Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "Programming is like sex. One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life." - Michael Sinz
These are some of the same concerns I'm grappling with. 1. It's hard to imagine that two parents can match the breadth of subjects taught... I think this requires real honesty and humility on the part of the parent. My wife and I are from different enough backgrounds (personally and professionally) that we can probably handle everything up to the junior-high level. A good test would be to examine the criteria for the curriculum (in Pennsylvania, USA, at least, there is a prescribed curriculum and test)--if you can't score near-perfect on the curriculum, then you need some outside help, such as a tutor or another homeschooling parent who does have the background. (Of course, a recent local news story noted that the teachers themselves, when tested, are failing their own subjects...) 2. The kids miss the social interaction they would normally see in a school. That's a big one. I think you can still manage it, but you have to try harder. It certainly helps if you're in a neighborhood with a lot of kids the same age. I know it's just anecdotal evidence, but the adults I've known who were home schooled, with only one exception, are as well-adjusted socially as the publically-schooled. 3. Lack of direct exposure to different cultures and races. You're making the assumption that public schools provide that exposure. I grew up in a rural area. Until I went to college, I had met a grand total of one ethnic African and two ethnic Asians, and that was the extent of the exposure I got from a public school. The neighborhood we live in is ten times more diverse than the entire school I went to. 4. Lack of extra-ciricular activities (music, sports, etc..) That one I'm least concerned about. In my area, at least, there are more than enough non-school extracurricular activities. There are numerous non-school-affiliated sports programs, and all kinds of private instruction in the arts and music. Besides, some school districts do let home-schooled children participate in school-sponsored activities--you just have to pay an activity fee of a few hundred dollars, which I think would be money well spent. I'm still not sure it's something I want to do, but it is looking more attractive, if for no other reason than to keep public schooling from beating the natural curiosity out of my kids. ;-) Tim Lesher http://www.lesher.ws
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Do what I do, home educate all your children. I believe it is an insult to your children to force them to attend a public school in the US. I do not accept the argument that you cannot afford to send your children to private schools or that both you and your wife must work, which prevents home schooling. I have lived all over this country, and with the possible exception of elementary grade Texas schools, they are all very substandard. They continually lower their teaching standards so that other unfortunates can keep up and make passing grades, which reduces the quality of teaching to other students who are prepared when they enter the school systems. The Texas school systems understand this and offer somewhat remedies for this. California is the absolute worst. This political correctness in this country is making me dammed angry thanks to those fuc*ing liberals!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Bill Leibold wrote: The Texas school systems understand this and offer somewhat remedies for this. This political correctness in this country is making me dammed angry thanks to those fuc*ing liberals! I hope someone else is teaching your children English. ;) ;)
Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "Programming is like sex. One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life." - Michael Sinz
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Do what I do, home educate all your children. I believe it is an insult to your children to force them to attend a public school in the US. I do not accept the argument that you cannot afford to send your children to private schools or that both you and your wife must work, which prevents home schooling. I have lived all over this country, and with the possible exception of elementary grade Texas schools, they are all very substandard. They continually lower their teaching standards so that other unfortunates can keep up and make passing grades, which reduces the quality of teaching to other students who are prepared when they enter the school systems. The Texas school systems understand this and offer somewhat remedies for this. California is the absolute worst. This political correctness in this country is making me dammed angry thanks to those fuc*ing liberals!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
One of the reasons I would prefer a private school to home schooling is that private schools, I think, offer better career tracks, especially when it comes to knowing the right people. For example, both Presidents Bush attended Andover Academy. I'm sure some of the people they met by virtue of going there helped them in their political careers. Actually, I think all schools should be privatized and run as corporations. An imaginative CEO should be able to think of ways to cuts costs while at the same time improving the quality of education. Most parents should be able to afford such schools, particularly because they won't be paying property taxes anymore. You know, I really should post a web site listing my entire political agenda. "What would this country be without this great land of our?" -Ronald Reagan
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Roger Wright wrote: Just because I'm paranoid doesn't necessarily mean that they're not out to get me... Charles Bronson... Crivo Automated Credit Assessment
Is that where it came from? I read it on a poster in the '70s - loved it!:-D
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Bill Leibold wrote: The Texas school systems understand this and offer somewhat remedies for this. This political correctness in this country is making me dammed angry thanks to those fuc*ing liberals! I hope someone else is teaching your children English. ;) ;)
Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "Programming is like sex. One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life." - Michael Sinz
Depends what sort of English you are talking about?
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One of the reasons I would prefer a private school to home schooling is that private schools, I think, offer better career tracks, especially when it comes to knowing the right people. For example, both Presidents Bush attended Andover Academy. I'm sure some of the people they met by virtue of going there helped them in their political careers. Actually, I think all schools should be privatized and run as corporations. An imaginative CEO should be able to think of ways to cuts costs while at the same time improving the quality of education. Most parents should be able to afford such schools, particularly because they won't be paying property taxes anymore. You know, I really should post a web site listing my entire political agenda. "What would this country be without this great land of our?" -Ronald Reagan
Actually, I think all schools should be privatized and run as corporations. That's a popular but dangerous view. Public schools have to to a lot of things that corporations don't. For example, a corporation is free to lower the quality of its product, if a lower price point will make it more competitive in the market... Hmm... I guess public schools already do run like a corporation... ;-) Tim Lesher http://www.lesher.ws
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Actually, I think all schools should be privatized and run as corporations. That's a popular but dangerous view. Public schools have to to a lot of things that corporations don't. For example, a corporation is free to lower the quality of its product, if a lower price point will make it more competitive in the market... Hmm... I guess public schools already do run like a corporation... ;-) Tim Lesher http://www.lesher.ws
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Actually, I think all schools should be privatized and run as corporations. That's a popular but dangerous view. Public schools have to to a lot of things that corporations don't. For example, a corporation is free to lower the quality of its product, if a lower price point will make it more competitive in the market... Hmm... I guess public schools already do run like a corporation... ;-) Tim Lesher http://www.lesher.ws
That's one of the reasons why schools would still have to be regulated. Besides, the quality of the product is what will attract the customers. If the public school administrators ran the computer industry, that IBM guy who said he saw no need for more than 5 computers would be right. "What would this country be without this great land of our?" -Ronald Reagan
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I heard on the radio today that New Jersey schools are taking steps to trivialize, dilute, and even twist (with a definite anti-American bent) U.S. history. For instance, they have reduced the five years of WW2 to three incidents - the holocaust, the internment of the Japanese in the U.S., and the use of nuclear weapons against Japan. They will not be teaching the events that led up to U.S. involvment in the war (and yes, that includes the vicious sneak attack on our fleet in Pearl Harbor), nor the involvment of American volunteers helping in the defense of Great Britain during the Blitzkrieg, nor even our attempts to stay out of the war. Further, they are removing pictures of our founding fathers from state and local government buildings, and won't be teaching the kids about the pilgrims because of the religious bearing of the subject. I find it utterly unbelievable that some people think that early eductation is not supposed to do more that provide bullet points of history with no basis for the facts. This country is doomed. "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
Personally, being a high school student, I think that the country's education system would be vastly improved if it wasn't a law to go to school. It should be a decision left up to the students. Students who are motivated enough to voluntarily go to school will prosper while those who don't end up working at McDonald's and Burger King and filling our manual labor positions. There would be more funding available to the schools because the amount spent on students now could be better utilized to a smaller amount of students. They states would be able to afford better more qualified teachers. I would have to say now that many of my teacher wouldn't pass the MCAS which is the standardized test in Massachusetts. When I took the MCAS 2 years ago, the scores were sooooooooo awful that the department of education was forced to rewrite the test to make it dumber. I find that pathetic. It should not be necessary that the test be brought to the student's level, but the students education should be brouht the test's level. Stephen Caldwell Blackfission, CEO http://blackfission.myip.org:81
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Is that where it came from? I read it on a poster in the '70s - loved it!:-D
I love it too! I am not sure in which movie, but I think it was in "Death Wish" (great movie). He calls 911 and the police say "You are paranoid, go to bed and sleep". Then he argues that. :cool: Crivo Automated Credit Assessment
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Simon Walton wrote: What irritates me also is people who simply don't understand the different between "Britain" and "England". I've lost count of the number of times i've told people where i'm from (which is Wales), yet they continue to refer to my country as England. A few years ago I had to clean-up my company's client database and found the following countries listed: England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Britain, Great Britain, and United Kingdom I asked our sales reps, "Why so many variations?" Their response, "That's the way their company letterhead's read." I started digging out historical correspondence and sure enough, some companies in the same cities had completely different "countries" printed on their company letterhead. One company in particular had sent us letters from their manufacturing office and their headquarters located on opposite sides of the same city. One said England and the other said United Kingdom. :confused: I figure if the brits can't figure out where the hell they live, why should we try? ;P
Mike Mullikin - Sonork 100.10096 "Programming is like sex. One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life." - Michael Sinz
Mike Mullikin wrote: A few years ago I had to clean-up my company's client database and found the following countries listed: England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Britain, Great Britain, and United Kingdom You can easily rationalise Britain, Great Britain and United Kingdom. Although they do mean something slightly different, it would be acceptable to change all the "Britain" variants to "United Kingdom", which is more correct when used in an address. England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland are all seperate countries within the United Kingdom so they cannot be rationalised in the same way. However, since in international legal terms the UK is the country we all live in, you could explicitly express this relationship in the address by accepting the country in the letterhead as part of the address, but automatically adding "United Kingdom" after it as the "country" in your database, for example: Gavin Greig, Street Address, Town, Local Authority/County, Scotland, United Kingdom This extends the courtesy of including my choice of country while helping to keep your database consistent. Comparing with the US, I think England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland would each be the equivalent of a State. I think (though I'm not sure) that in terms of storing addresses, our local authorities/regions/counties could be regarded as equivalent to "counties" in the US, although I think counties are more significant to us politically and postally than they are in the states. The real problem, of course, is that we have two levels of political division, both of which are commonly referred to as a "country". :omg: Gavin Greig
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I heard on the radio today that New Jersey schools are taking steps to trivialize, dilute, and even twist (with a definite anti-American bent) U.S. history. For instance, they have reduced the five years of WW2 to three incidents - the holocaust, the internment of the Japanese in the U.S., and the use of nuclear weapons against Japan. They will not be teaching the events that led up to U.S. involvment in the war (and yes, that includes the vicious sneak attack on our fleet in Pearl Harbor), nor the involvment of American volunteers helping in the defense of Great Britain during the Blitzkrieg, nor even our attempts to stay out of the war. Further, they are removing pictures of our founding fathers from state and local government buildings, and won't be teaching the kids about the pilgrims because of the religious bearing of the subject. I find it utterly unbelievable that some people think that early eductation is not supposed to do more that provide bullet points of history with no basis for the facts. This country is doomed. "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
Do you believe everything you hear on the radio? How about everyting you read on the Internet? This sounds to me like a conservative hack-job on reality. You weren't by chance listening to Rush, were you?
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Do you believe everything you hear on the radio? How about everyting you read on the Internet? This sounds to me like a conservative hack-job on reality. You weren't by chance listening to Rush, were you?
> Do you believe everything you hear on the radio? No, but when you can verify information through other sources, it becomes a little more believable. > How about everyting you read on the Internet? Sure, don't you? > This sounds to me like a conservative hack-job > on reality. You weren't by chance listening to > Rush, were you? You must be one of those bleeding-heart liberals that thinks the goverment should support everyone thast doesn't want to work for a living, or that standardized tests should be brought down to the educational level of the people that are taking them. "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
