Three sisters age 12 to 16 each have a baby
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Stan Shannon wrote: Otherwise any comparison is meaningless Do you mean the US isn't a nation but a superposition of heterogeneous populations, or are you trying to exclude some categories to get the right numbers? Stan Shannon wrote: I will agreee that it is, in fact, probably due to the massive effort those governments go to in order to ensure that children are properly indoctrinated into a secular social order where birth control of all types is not merely easily available but vitrually considered a social duty to use. So you agree than when a society has a rigid moral instead of a good education, the result is disastrous on the youth Stan Shannon wrote: Firstly, not only have birth rates in general declined in Europe I don't see the point to have a high birth rate if it is made of unwanted children: this will lead to much more societal problems. Stan Shannon wrote: your own ethnicity altogether Ethnicity?? What do you mean? Purity of the Race? My country is made by a mix of different populations for more than 5,000 years, I don't see why that should change now. And we are going away from the original topic.
Stade Toulousain, European Champions for the third time - Allez le Stade!
Fold with us!K(arl) wrote: Do you mean the US isn't a nation but a superposition of heterogeneous populations, or are you trying to exclude some categories to get the right numbers? I'm saying that comparing Middletown, IN to Los Angelos, CA is like comparing Greece to Ireland - there are many factors that have to be calcualted into the equation to understand the differences. K(arl) wrote: So you agree than when a society has a rigid moral instead of a good education, the result is disastrous on the youth I'm saying that disasters come in many forms. The children of Middletown, IN are not suffering from a disaster on any kind. They come from strong stable, church going families and are taught the concept of personal responsibility. K(arl) wrote: Ethnicity?? What do you mean? Purity of the Race? I mean race and everything that comes with it - culture, tradition, art, language. Your country, as with all others, may be a mixture of many invading races, but I can assure you that every invasion was met with opposition and that opposition assured the survival of the better parts of what had existed before. Your population will be naturally replaced by one that does not subsribe to your fine secular moral principles on birth control and your legacy will be something of a grand historic joke. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
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Mrs Atkins told the Sunday Mercury: "I don't care what people say about me. I blame the schools - sex education for young girls should be better." Well as she doesn't care I can happily say the hospital should have made her infertile at birth, because she obviously has no understanding or capability towards being a mother. I feel so sorry for her children, and I wish for their sakes their children had never been born because as mothers they have already been led far down the wrong road. Lambeth (London) - 104.9 pregnancies per 1,000 women aged 15-17 Blackpool - 80.3 pregnancies per 1,000 women aged 15-17 Nottingham - 73.5 pregnancies per 1,000 women aged 15-17 etc... That's 10% - and those statistics would ignore the 12 and 14 year olds from that news article. What is the common factor for all those areas? They are all areas with social and economic deprivation. The same levels of education work elsewhere, the difference is elsewhere the parents support the schools. Do you want to know what's happening in the areas were previously high rates are falling? Health care workers - state funded, sorry Stan - are talking to the target girls and boys and explaining the concept of responsibility to them. There is no magical school syllabus this woman's kids were denied, the state simply went out and gave the kids what they should have been taught from birth at home: responsibility, rules and respect. A novel concept I know! "He was my first love but now I'm gutted because he doesn't want to have anything to do with me or T-Jay." Assuming he didn't run away after you named the poor future state liability, what did you fucking expect? You were 14 when you got pregnant. I'm assuming the father was out of primary school himself? Not all men are like that but he isn't a man and if he's sleeping around the neighbourhood at 14 then you aren't going to get any loyalty. "Ooohhh but he was my first love." That's why you wait. Sometimes it will work out bust most of the time it won't. If the whole world ran around marrying everyone as soon as they fell in love we'd all have the divorce rates of the U.S. Sex education for young girls is perfectly adequate - they just need to look around them. If they can honestly say they don't understand how they can get pregnant while at the same having sex with council estate boys then they have far bigger problems IMO. Kids are developing more quickly with each generation - this problem is only going to get worse.
David Wulff wrote: Sex education for young girls is perfectly adequate - they just need to look around them. If they can honestly say they don't understand how they can get pregnant while at the same having sex with council estate boys then they have far bigger problems IMO. Kids are developing more quickly with each generation - this problem is only going to get worse. Not if they barely pay attention to their education in the first place. I'd say its pretty likely that middle class teenagers are as sexualy active as those on council estates, they are just a hell of a lot more likely to have responsible parents and to have paid attention during pretty damn simple lessons. Ryan
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Mrs Atkins told the Sunday Mercury: "I don't care what people say about me. I blame the schools - sex education for young girls should be better." Well as she doesn't care I can happily say the hospital should have made her infertile at birth, because she obviously has no understanding or capability towards being a mother. I feel so sorry for her children, and I wish for their sakes their children had never been born because as mothers they have already been led far down the wrong road. Lambeth (London) - 104.9 pregnancies per 1,000 women aged 15-17 Blackpool - 80.3 pregnancies per 1,000 women aged 15-17 Nottingham - 73.5 pregnancies per 1,000 women aged 15-17 etc... That's 10% - and those statistics would ignore the 12 and 14 year olds from that news article. What is the common factor for all those areas? They are all areas with social and economic deprivation. The same levels of education work elsewhere, the difference is elsewhere the parents support the schools. Do you want to know what's happening in the areas were previously high rates are falling? Health care workers - state funded, sorry Stan - are talking to the target girls and boys and explaining the concept of responsibility to them. There is no magical school syllabus this woman's kids were denied, the state simply went out and gave the kids what they should have been taught from birth at home: responsibility, rules and respect. A novel concept I know! "He was my first love but now I'm gutted because he doesn't want to have anything to do with me or T-Jay." Assuming he didn't run away after you named the poor future state liability, what did you fucking expect? You were 14 when you got pregnant. I'm assuming the father was out of primary school himself? Not all men are like that but he isn't a man and if he's sleeping around the neighbourhood at 14 then you aren't going to get any loyalty. "Ooohhh but he was my first love." That's why you wait. Sometimes it will work out bust most of the time it won't. If the whole world ran around marrying everyone as soon as they fell in love we'd all have the divorce rates of the U.S. Sex education for young girls is perfectly adequate - they just need to look around them. If they can honestly say they don't understand how they can get pregnant while at the same having sex with council estate boys then they have far bigger problems IMO. Kids are developing more quickly with each generation - this problem is only going to get worse.
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David Wulff wrote: we'd all have the divorce rates of the U.S. :laugh::laugh: Then again, I live in the US and I just got married 3 weeks ago. :~ -J
Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and monkeys do too (if they have a gun). -Eddie Izzard
I'm glad someone saw the humour in that, I was half expecting to just get the usual bunch of low votes and that would be that.
Ðavid Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Audioscrobbler :: flickrDie Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen
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"Some families have taught their offspring for generations how to be nothing more than parasites" is the standard argument of right wingers claiming that these bastards of poor people are just lazy people living at their expense. This cliché runs for a while, especially among the people who have no idea of what is the life of the ones living with minimal resources. Of course, the behaviour you describes happens, but it is much more an exception than the rule.
Stade Toulousain, European Champions for the third time - Allez le Stade!
Fold with us!K(arl) wrote: This cliché runs for a while, especially among the people who have no idea of what is the life of the ones living with minimal resources. FWIW, i have a reasonably good idea of what it takes to live with minimal resources. It often isn't much fun. But it's no excuse for abject stupidity. I will accept no opinion hinting that it takes a high level of education to figure out that if you neglect your kids to spend your Gov't cheque on meth, you're gonna quickly lose both. And your kids are gonna grow up fucked.
You must be careful in the forest Broken glass and rusty nails If you're to bring back something for us I have bullets for sale...
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Sometimes it seems like only stupid people are breeding.
"In our civilization, and under our republican form of government, intelligence is so highly honored that it is rewarded by exemption from the cares of office." - Ambrose Bierce
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David Wulff wrote: Sex education for young girls is perfectly adequate - they just need to look around them. If they can honestly say they don't understand how they can get pregnant while at the same having sex with council estate boys then they have far bigger problems IMO. Kids are developing more quickly with each generation - this problem is only going to get worse. Not if they barely pay attention to their education in the first place. I'd say its pretty likely that middle class teenagers are as sexualy active as those on council estates, they are just a hell of a lot more likely to have responsible parents and to have paid attention during pretty damn simple lessons. Ryan
It is all about social factors and very little to do with education. In high school I learnt all about the biology. In Biology class we even got to watch a condom being applied to a test tube, and other fun activities, which taught us fuck all anything about making decisions. I learnt more about the reasons I'm not a father today from my Religious Education classes than I did in Science. The only difference I have seen is that my parents, friends and local community all supported what the schools were doing, whereas nine times out of ten the parents of teenage mothers and fathers: a) have no idea what the schools teach, despite claiming they don't do enough, b) offer no at-home support to their children's education, and sometimes c) don't see anything wrong with what their kids are doing. The grandparents at 25 mentioned above are a case in hand. Many parents will try and raise their children to avoid the problems and perceived bad things about their own upbringing - it's what good parents are meant to do - but others will claim that whilst doing everything they can to force their children into their own mould. Living their own lives through their children. You can spot the problem families a mile off but what can we legally or morally do about it? Not a lot. They have as much right to be alive as anyone else which is the problem. Even bad parents love their children.
Ðavid Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Audioscrobbler :: flickrDie Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen
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:laugh:
You must be careful in the forest Broken glass and rusty nails If you're to bring back something for us I have bullets for sale...
I just heard that song on the radio yesterday! I've always liked that song but I think that I appreciate the lyrics more now than I did back when it came out. :) BTW, What is the name/artist of that song? -J
Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and monkeys do too (if they have a gun). -Eddie Izzard
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Excuse me Brian, but BS. When a kid becomes pregnant, this indicates a serious problem, either in the education or a psychological distress (abuses excepted). Claiming that the State is responsible for teenage pregnancies is having the same discourse than the mother of these poor 3 girls: it is being irresponsible.
Stade Toulousain, European Champions for the third time - Allez le Stade!
Fold with us!All I'm saying is there is a problem with kids not being taught to take responsibility for their actions or to consider consequences before they act. I didn't place blame anywhere (except maybe on the children). Having said that, I don't think all children are capable* of learning how to make informed responsible decisions. Some people don't learn to do that when they are adults. Basically, it's an issue that will remain an issue for a long time. Nothing the state can provide will protect individuals from making stupid decisions, though it might be able to make situations appear more palatable to those not directly involved. * By capable, I don't mean they have some fundemental deficiency, but that they haven't the experience or maturity yet to make good decisions. BW
I want pancakes! God, do you people understand every language except English?
Yo quiero pancakes. Donnez moi pancakes. Click click, bloody click pancakes!
-- Stewie Griffin -
I just heard that song on the radio yesterday! I've always liked that song but I think that I appreciate the lyrics more now than I did back when it came out. :) BTW, What is the name/artist of that song? -J
Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and monkeys do too (if they have a gun). -Eddie Izzard
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K(arl) wrote: Do you mean the US isn't a nation but a superposition of heterogeneous populations, or are you trying to exclude some categories to get the right numbers? I'm saying that comparing Middletown, IN to Los Angelos, CA is like comparing Greece to Ireland - there are many factors that have to be calcualted into the equation to understand the differences. K(arl) wrote: So you agree than when a society has a rigid moral instead of a good education, the result is disastrous on the youth I'm saying that disasters come in many forms. The children of Middletown, IN are not suffering from a disaster on any kind. They come from strong stable, church going families and are taught the concept of personal responsibility. K(arl) wrote: Ethnicity?? What do you mean? Purity of the Race? I mean race and everything that comes with it - culture, tradition, art, language. Your country, as with all others, may be a mixture of many invading races, but I can assure you that every invasion was met with opposition and that opposition assured the survival of the better parts of what had existed before. Your population will be naturally replaced by one that does not subsribe to your fine secular moral principles on birth control and your legacy will be something of a grand historic joke. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Stan Shannon wrote: I'm saying that disasters come in many forms. The children of Middletown, IN are not suffering from a disaster on any kind. They come from strong stable, church going families and are taught the concept of personal responsibility. Or they simply "disappear" for a year, sent off to a special school for unwed mothers where they continue school separated from society for 9+ months and return the following school year, and no one speaks about what happened... ever. Lots of things happen when you first say "it never happens here" because you have to prove it never happens by changing the rules. For the Southwest, that particular school for such girls is outside of dallas. The children are automatically given up for adoption, no choice to the girl, as it would destroy the reputation of the town when they return. I don't know the right solution, but a lot gets hidden in the communities that cannot admit that this occurs, and that isn't all together healthy either. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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I just heard that song on the radio yesterday! I've always liked that song but I think that I appreciate the lyrics more now than I did back when it came out. :) BTW, What is the name/artist of that song? -J
Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and monkeys do too (if they have a gun). -Eddie Izzard
Flag pole sitta - Harvey Danger It sticks in my mind because a band we know well plays it at every gig. Actually it's wierd but I heard a lot of songs for the first time played by the band and when I hear the original it doesn't sound "right".
"In our civilization, and under our republican form of government, intelligence is so highly honored that it is rewarded by exemption from the cares of office." - Ambrose Bierce
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I'm glad someone saw the humour in that, I was half expecting to just get the usual bunch of low votes and that would be that.
Ðavid Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Audioscrobbler :: flickrDie Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen
David Wulff wrote: I'm glad someone saw the humour in that, I was half expecting to just get the usual bunch of low votes and that would be that. why would someone downgrade you for that? heck even I, your local two time divorced guy didn't vote a 1. Guilty as charged, though it is more complicated than that, still it wasn't worth a 1 vote, I don't do that THAT often. If you fear being alone, challenge the fear, be alone. :) it's better than a 3rd divorce. ;) _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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David Wulff wrote: I'm glad someone saw the humour in that, I was half expecting to just get the usual bunch of low votes and that would be that. why would someone downgrade you for that? heck even I, your local two time divorced guy didn't vote a 1. Guilty as charged, though it is more complicated than that, still it wasn't worth a 1 vote, I don't do that THAT often. If you fear being alone, challenge the fear, be alone. :) it's better than a 3rd divorce. ;) _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
I mentioned a certain country in the same sentance as a) something that is not a Good Thing, and b) toungue-in-cheek humour. That is usually a death warrant round here. :rolleyes:
Ðavid Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Audioscrobbler :: flickrDie Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen
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All I'm saying is there is a problem with kids not being taught to take responsibility for their actions or to consider consequences before they act. I didn't place blame anywhere (except maybe on the children). Having said that, I don't think all children are capable* of learning how to make informed responsible decisions. Some people don't learn to do that when they are adults. Basically, it's an issue that will remain an issue for a long time. Nothing the state can provide will protect individuals from making stupid decisions, though it might be able to make situations appear more palatable to those not directly involved. * By capable, I don't mean they have some fundemental deficiency, but that they haven't the experience or maturity yet to make good decisions. BW
I want pancakes! God, do you people understand every language except English?
Yo quiero pancakes. Donnez moi pancakes. Click click, bloody click pancakes!
-- Stewie GriffinI misunderstood you then and globally agree with you, except when you say that you don't think all children are capable of learning. On the contrary, I believe all children are capable to learn once found an appropriate pedagogy. Most of the time, this pedagogy would be to let the children learn by themselves rather than impose rules on them they don't understand. brianwelsch wrote: Nothing the state can provide will protect individuals from making stupid decisions Almost agreed. The State can't protect individuals (and it shouldn't, the freedom being also the freedom to make mistakes), but it can help them to learn, by providing adapted educational means for all.
Fold with us!
All murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets - Voltaire, 1694-1778 -
K(arl) wrote: "Some families have taught their offspring for generations how to be nothing more than parasites" is the standard argument Having seen and worked first hand with this type of lifestyle and teaching, Welfare included, it is not an argument. The families themselves will tell you flat out that they have no intention of changing. It's a shame, really. Maybe you don't have this type of problem in France, but it is ever present in the U.S. K(arl) wrote: This cliché runs for a while, especially among the people who have no idea... True, most people don't. Do you?
"Ideas are a dime a dozen. People who put them into action are priceless." - Unknown
DavidCrow wrote: Maybe you don't have this type of problem in France, but it is ever present in the U.S. It exists there too, but from my experience, I don't believe it is the majority of cases. DavidCrow wrote: True, most people don't. Do you? I think so, but I may be presumptuous.
Fold with us!
All murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets - Voltaire, 1694-1778 -
K(arl) wrote: This cliché runs for a while, especially among the people who have no idea of what is the life of the ones living with minimal resources. FWIW, i have a reasonably good idea of what it takes to live with minimal resources. It often isn't much fun. But it's no excuse for abject stupidity. I will accept no opinion hinting that it takes a high level of education to figure out that if you neglect your kids to spend your Gov't cheque on meth, you're gonna quickly lose both. And your kids are gonna grow up fucked.
You must be careful in the forest Broken glass and rusty nails If you're to bring back something for us I have bullets for sale...
Shog9 wrote: But it's no excuse for abject stupidity Who said it was? Shog9 wrote: if you neglect your kids to spend your Gov't cheque on meth I'm not sure such behaviour is caused by stupidity. Also, I don't think removing the cheques will provide a viable solution. When people are involved in such an aberrant behaviour, I doubt they can be convinced by logical arguments. Let's build less jails, put less money in a repressive system, and invest more in education and psychological/behavioral help: IMO, this might be a more efficient solution.
Fold with us!
All murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets - Voltaire, 1694-1778 -
K(arl) wrote: Do you mean the US isn't a nation but a superposition of heterogeneous populations, or are you trying to exclude some categories to get the right numbers? I'm saying that comparing Middletown, IN to Los Angelos, CA is like comparing Greece to Ireland - there are many factors that have to be calcualted into the equation to understand the differences. K(arl) wrote: So you agree than when a society has a rigid moral instead of a good education, the result is disastrous on the youth I'm saying that disasters come in many forms. The children of Middletown, IN are not suffering from a disaster on any kind. They come from strong stable, church going families and are taught the concept of personal responsibility. K(arl) wrote: Ethnicity?? What do you mean? Purity of the Race? I mean race and everything that comes with it - culture, tradition, art, language. Your country, as with all others, may be a mixture of many invading races, but I can assure you that every invasion was met with opposition and that opposition assured the survival of the better parts of what had existed before. Your population will be naturally replaced by one that does not subsribe to your fine secular moral principles on birth control and your legacy will be something of a grand historic joke. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Stan Shannon wrote: culture, tradition, art, language To be alive these elements needs to move, transform, evolve. Such things are possible by integration of new elements. Stan Shannon wrote: may be a mixture of many invading races There is no race except the Human Race. Stan Shannon wrote: Your population will be naturally replaced by one that does not subsribe to your fine secular moral principles on birth control and your legacy will be something of a grand historic joke You aren't a reverend anymore, you're a prophet now?
Fold with us!
All murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets - Voltaire, 1694-1778 -
K(arl) wrote: Do you mean the US isn't a nation but a superposition of heterogeneous populations, or are you trying to exclude some categories to get the right numbers? I'm saying that comparing Middletown, IN to Los Angelos, CA is like comparing Greece to Ireland - there are many factors that have to be calcualted into the equation to understand the differences. K(arl) wrote: So you agree than when a society has a rigid moral instead of a good education, the result is disastrous on the youth I'm saying that disasters come in many forms. The children of Middletown, IN are not suffering from a disaster on any kind. They come from strong stable, church going families and are taught the concept of personal responsibility. K(arl) wrote: Ethnicity?? What do you mean? Purity of the Race? I mean race and everything that comes with it - culture, tradition, art, language. Your country, as with all others, may be a mixture of many invading races, but I can assure you that every invasion was met with opposition and that opposition assured the survival of the better parts of what had existed before. Your population will be naturally replaced by one that does not subsribe to your fine secular moral principles on birth control and your legacy will be something of a grand historic joke. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Stan Shannon wrote: I mean race and everything that comes with it - culture, tradition, art, language. Your country, as with all others, may be a mixture of many invading races, but I can assure you that every invasion was met with opposition and that opposition assured the survival of the better parts of what had existed before. Kind of like the Native American tribes that happened to be on this continent, but were never considered "owners." Those that attempted to "oppose invasion" as you put were considered the worst criminals that existed. Those who chose not to "oppose invasion" were considered the worst criminals that ever existed. Those who chose not to convert their religion, were killed for it. Those who translated the bible into their own language, were killed for it. Those who spoke the name of God as "The Great Spirit" or "The Great Father" or "The Great Mystery" were killed for it. Those who spoke their own language, expressed their culture, were starved, beaten or killed for it. Those who chose not to cloth themselves, were fed to the dogs and the children hung from the trees as a message to other tribes to be more "moral". Something "pure and natural" and of "moral principles" like that? X| _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Would I get beat up for making the obvious association between this and liberalism in general? When the state takes over being parent, we no longer need traditional morality. The state will always forgive us of our sins (well, I mean unless we insult someone's race or culture or something) "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Why do I always get the impressions in your posts that you think "liberalism" is the same as "socialism"? Just to let you know, it is NOT! At least not here in Europe. People believing in "liberalism" are far away from thinking that government is responsible for everything and should help/pay everyone. Indeed, it's the other way round. People believing in "liberalism" at first believe that everybody is free to do what ever he wants (as long as he stays within the laws) but therefore also everybody is responsible for his own life and also some basic stuff should be covered by government. What is completly different to what socialists think. So why are you always mixing those things up? Of course, as socialist do, liberal people have quite different opinions than politicians like George W. Bush (for example according the connection of religion and government), so they have some common things that seem to be oposite to your own believes, but that doesn't make them the same. So can you please stop messing things up and putting us liberals into the same pot as you put socialists? thanx Claudio Claudio's Website Hommingberger Gepardenforelle