George Bush vows to block funding for stem cell research
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Stan Shannon wrote: And if we didn't evalutate the morality of every advance in science that might benefit humanity we might well be performing experiments on some convenient minority population (aside from embryos, I mean). If we are to be utterly unconcerned about the morality of science, why not just clone a few thousand humans with genetically enhanced intelligence, and let them run the show? Why not? It would be another victory for capitalism! Stan Shannon wrote: "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom." <--- SEE!!!
:laugh: -- An eye for an eye will only make the world blind.
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Well said! -- An eye for an eye will only make the world blind.
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Well said! I don't know I just question the guy's rationale sometimes. He seems to be big on hypocrisy but then what politician isn't? Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: An eye for an eye will only make the world blind. A tooth for a tooth will make the denture manufacturing business boom. :) Later, JoeSox "Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." -Mark Twain CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ Audioscrobbler
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Daniel R Ferguson wrote: Basically, aggression* and violence are immoral. In a word - bullshit. If you belong to Genus Homo violence and aggression are in your genetic makeup. Those tendenancies are what made you a thinking ape. Daniel R Ferguson wrote: Defense is one thing, offense another. Putting weapons in space against no specific threat when you already have the largest military force on the planet is obviously an aggressive act. Again - bullshit. Those who hold the high ground will determine the battle. Richard In a world of pollution, profanity, adolescence, zits, broccoli, racism, ozone depletion, sexism, stupid guys, and PMS, why the hell do people still tell me to have a nice day? --Unknown
Richard Stringer wrote: If you belong to Genus Homo violence and aggression are in your genetic makeup. Those tendenancies are what made you a thinking ape. It's difficult to be violent and intelligent at the same time. Scientists are among the mosts intelligent people and I can't think of any who were particularly violent. Curiosity is what made us thinking apes. Richard Stringer wrote: Again - bull****. Those who hold the high ground will determine the battle. Woah there -- who said there was going to be a battle?
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
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Looks like Europe will be getting ahead of the States in another new technological/medical breakthrough area... ;P
Ðavid Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Audioscrobbler :: flickrDie Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen
Yep for 5 minutes. Then Bush goes, the next US President passes it, and the US starts atracting foreign experts in the field, as they are happy to pay 5-10 times the salary they would get back home! The US will always be ahead in Science until other governments start funding Science properly. No chance of that happening here in the UK any time soon.
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Richard Stringer wrote: If you belong to Genus Homo violence and aggression are in your genetic makeup. Those tendenancies are what made you a thinking ape. It's difficult to be violent and intelligent at the same time. Scientists are among the mosts intelligent people and I can't think of any who were particularly violent. Curiosity is what made us thinking apes. Richard Stringer wrote: Again - bull****. Those who hold the high ground will determine the battle. Woah there -- who said there was going to be a battle?
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
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Daniel R Ferguson wrote: It's difficult to be violent and intelligent at the same time Its very helpful actually. Daniel R Ferguson wrote: Curiosity is what made us thinking apes. Hmmm. Curiosity is a hallmark of Hominidae but that is true of all the members of the Genus. A hallmark of Sapiens is tool making. Almost every primitive tool is a weapon. As intelligence increased the sophistication of the weapons increased. Daniel R Ferguson wrote: Scientists are among the mosts intelligent people and I can't think of any who were particularly violent. Leroy Trailerpark Jones did not invent the A Bomb. Thats a cliche but weapon research/war is the greatest incentive to invention that we have ever known. Daniel R Ferguson wrote: Woah there -- who said there was going to be a battle? There won't be if we hold an overwelming superiority. Richard In a world of pollution, profanity, adolescence, zits, broccoli, racism, ozone depletion, sexism, stupid guys, and PMS, why the hell do people still tell me to have a nice day? --Unknown
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Stan Shannon wrote: And if we didn't evalutate the morality of every advance in science that might benefit humanity we might well be performing experiments on some convenient minority population (aside from embryos, I mean). If we are to be utterly unconcerned about the morality of science, why not just clone a few thousand humans with genetically enhanced intelligence, and let them run the show? Why not? It would be another victory for capitalism! Stan Shannon wrote: "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom." <--- SEE!!!
5 / :laugh:
Ðavid Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Audioscrobbler :: flickrDie Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen
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Richard Stringer wrote: Those tendenancies are what made you a thinking ape Fantastic groundbreaking new science you got there, have you thought of publishing it? If aggression and violence were the path to 'thinking', then nearly all the bloody gnats, rodents and whatnot on this earth would be sipping lattes discussing Kafka. "God doesn't play dice" - Albert Einstein "God not only plays dice, He sometimes throws the dices where they cannot be seen" - Niels Bohr
jan larsen wrote: Fantastic groundbreaking new science you got there, have you thought of publishing it? Na - I'll let you do it. You are so well versed on the subject ( and probably every other subject ). There is an old expression you should peruse in your spare time. "Put brain in gear before putting mouth in motion". Richard Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a [person] does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses their intelligence. --Albert Einstein So long as there are men there will be wars --Albert Einstein "Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." etc..... Richard In a world of pollution, profanity, adolescence, zits, broccoli, racism, ozone depletion, sexism, stupid guys, and PMS, why the hell do people still tell me to have a nice day? --Unknown
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Richard Stringer wrote: We lived in them and then went out and killed anything edible. ...using tools developed by our "science" (spears, arrows, slings) that if/when abused can do bad things. We didn't worry about it then and I suggest we not do so now. Without the tools, we would have been hiding in those caves. ;) "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
Mike Mullikin wrote: Without the tools, we would have been hiding in those caves Without the tools we would never have needed those caves. We would still be in Africa swinging thru them trees :) Richard In a world of pollution, profanity, adolescence, zits, broccoli, racism, ozone depletion, sexism, stupid guys, and PMS, why the hell do people still tell me to have a nice day? --Unknown
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Shog9 wrote: Agree/disagree, the rational seems to have been made clear. He is stupid. It is for research. Research! For christ's sake. Later, JoeSox "Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." -Mark Twain CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ Audioscrobbler
JoeSox wrote: It is for research. Research! For christ's sake. The tobacco companies did a lot of research too... Just being 'research' does not make it moral by default. Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not. Eric Hoffer
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Looks like Europe will be getting ahead of the States in another new technological/medical breakthrough area... ;P
Ðavid Wulff The Royal Woofle Museum
Audioscrobbler :: flickrDie Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen
David Wulff wrote: Looks like Europe will be getting ahead of the States in another new technological/medical breakthrough area... Actually, South Korea, believe it or not. Marc My website
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Mike Mullikin wrote: I'm guessing because he feels that certain stem cell research would not be "fostering and encouraging respect for human life in all its stages." I don't personally agree with him, but I can read entire sentences. "fostering and encouraging respect for human life in all its stages." This is the same President that decided to start a War. This President needs to get his shit together imo. He obviously does not trust the scientific community. I guess in his mind he is displaying political courage. Maybe he doesn't have trust that the government will be giving funding to the correct research. Later, JoeSox "Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." -Mark Twain CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ Audioscrobbler
JoeSox wrote: Maybe he doesn't have trust that the government will be giving funding to the correct research. There is practically no evidence to suggest that the government is particularly competent in distributing funds 'correctly'. The operative mechanism for determining the funding of projects seems to be political rather than practical. I wouldn't trust them either. Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not. Eric Hoffer
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Shog9 wrote: Agree/disagree, the rational seems to have been made clear. He is stupid. It is for research. Research! For christ's sake. Later, JoeSox "Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." -Mark Twain CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ Audioscrobbler
JoeSox wrote: He is stupid. It is for research. Research! For christ's sake. Perhaps not http://www.remember.org/educate/medexp.html[^] Richard In a world of pollution, profanity, adolescence, zits, broccoli, racism, ozone depletion, sexism, stupid guys, and PMS, why the hell do people still tell me to have a nice day? --Unknown
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Bush spoke: "This bill would take us across a critical ethical line by creating new incentives for the ongoing destruction of emerging human life" Is he referring to that line waaay back there on the horizon? :rolleyes:
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
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Stan Shannon wrote: If we are to be utterly unconcerned about the morality of science, why not just clone a few thousand humans with genetically enhanced intelligence, and let them run the show? Get serious! what we need is a few hundred thousand clones with genetically enhanced stupidity, so we can run the show...and never run short of burger flippers. Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not. Eric Hoffer
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Stan Shannon wrote: morality of scientific progress If we constrained scientific progress based upon morality, I think the mail would be still be delivered by horses. :) Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] Remember that in Texas, Gun Control is hitting what you aim at. [Richard Stringer] Nice sig! [Tim Deveaux on Matt Newman's sig with a quote from me]
Chris Meech wrote: If we constrained scientific progress based upon morality, I think the mail would be still be delivered by horses. If we had considered the morality of abusing horses to deliver the mail, we might have discovered a better method much sooner. Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not. Eric Hoffer
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Shog9 wrote: Agree/disagree, the rational seems to have been made clear. He is stupid. It is for research. Research! For christ's sake. Later, JoeSox "Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." -Mark Twain CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ Audioscrobbler
JoeSox wrote: He is stupid. Maybe so, but i agree with him on this one. Wish he would take a stance for preserving life in more situations... :sigh: JoeSox wrote: It is for research. Research! Meh. Quite a bit of research out there that i could care less about. And a bit more that, even if i cared, i wouldn't want to pay for. Obviously, some research should be publicly funded, as the results would be for the public good... but research for the sake of research has little business demanding tax dollars when the public providing them is conflicted (to say the least) as to its desirability.
You must be careful in the forest Broken glass and rusty nails If you're to bring back something for us I have bullets for sale...
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JoeSox wrote: He is stupid. Maybe so, but i agree with him on this one. Wish he would take a stance for preserving life in more situations... :sigh: JoeSox wrote: It is for research. Research! Meh. Quite a bit of research out there that i could care less about. And a bit more that, even if i cared, i wouldn't want to pay for. Obviously, some research should be publicly funded, as the results would be for the public good... but research for the sake of research has little business demanding tax dollars when the public providing them is conflicted (to say the least) as to its desirability.
You must be careful in the forest Broken glass and rusty nails If you're to bring back something for us I have bullets for sale...
Shog9 wrote: ...but research for the sake of research has little business demanding tax dollars when the public providing them is conflicted (to say the least) as to its desirability. :confused: When it comes to stem cell research I've never heard a soul question the desirability of the potential results. Cures for Alzhiemers, Parkinsons disease, spinal cord injuries to name a few. The conflict centers on the means... not the end. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Well said! I don't know I just question the guy's rationale sometimes. He seems to be big on hypocrisy but then what politician isn't? Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: An eye for an eye will only make the world blind. A tooth for a tooth will make the denture manufacturing business boom. :) Later, JoeSox "Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." -Mark Twain CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ Audioscrobbler
JoeSox wrote: but then what politician isn't? A politician is a business man. He collects monies to be ellected to provide monies to those who got him ellected. If someone who was in the medical business provided him money, they would get his vote, not a veto. If a president goes around giving out "free votes" on issues, how would he get businesses to fund an office that requires 750 million to ellect into office? Next year ellection it will cost near a billion, next over a billion, the only way to do that is hold the line. Give money to your benefactors, restrict it to non-donors. That is how it has been done for decades, it just costs more each time and requires more promises and more "holding the line" to get the message that they have to give to receive. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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I find it amazing that the left seems to have lost the ability to evaluate the morality of scientific progress. Do we tolerate embryo factories in order to keep every old fart on the planet alive for every possible last nano-second of mortal existence? You don't have to be a religious zealot to appreciate the moral quandry of this kind of research. I also do not necessarily agree with Bush, but I am glad there are people asking these kinds of quesitons. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Stan Shannon wrote: Do we tolerate embryo factories in order to keep every old fart on the planet alive for every possible last nano-second of mortal existence? You don't have to be a religious zealot to appreciate the moral quandry of this kind of research. The president has never restricted such actions, only said that it must be done with commercial monies, not government monies. There is no one asking those questions, only providing them as an excuse. Government supported research is restricted, commercial companies are free to do everything, exactly what you describe. The difference is they do not have to tell you what they do or how they are doing it, and they are allowed to profit by it, and they do not have to compete with Universities that take government money -- so they are able to make MORE money from it. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Shog9 wrote: ...but research for the sake of research has little business demanding tax dollars when the public providing them is conflicted (to say the least) as to its desirability. :confused: When it comes to stem cell research I've never heard a soul question the desirability of the potential results. Cures for Alzhiemers, Parkinsons disease, spinal cord injuries to name a few. The conflict centers on the means... not the end. "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." Philip K. Dick