More fuel for the America/Europe debate,,,,,
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Giles wrote: China keeps taking a slice of the manufacturing/services pie We're losing manufacturing jobs to China as well as to South America. We're losing service jobs to India. None of which is pleasant to consider. The consequence may be however that the interdependencies created do for the world what the United Nations hasn't (and will never) been able to do. Then consider the revaluation of the Chinese currency. With the level of interdependence as it is today, do you think China could do the 30% upgrade overnight? If they did the flow of jobs reverses. I personally believe we'll see the same thing as regards India. There'll be wage pressure so they can purchase the things they now service (products serviced through call centers) or from IT workers who visit Europe or the US and go home wanting that shiney thing they saw "here". Upward wage pressure combined with the infrastructure costs required to support this out sourcing will pull these jobs back here (and there). This is really over simplified but realistic I believe. The only thing that prevents it is government interference with markets and that is virtually impossible on certain levels long term because of the internet, both because of the ease of doing uncontroled or uncontrolable business transactions and the way it allows diverse cultures to communicate. The latter potential is exhibited in the way China attempts to filter incoming news. Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me K(arl) wrote: Date:8:50 23 Feb '05 I love you.
Not quite. The difference between India and China is that India's currency floats freely without government intervention. China has locked its currency, you cannot trade it, and it locked in artificially low to increase exports.
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Interesting article. "We still speak of "the West," but I think the expression will soon be politically meaningless.". It is, and it is since 1989. As the author said, "the West" was defined by opposition to USSR and its satellites. So after the collapse of the Iron Curtain, "the West" didn't exist anymore. "as the French persist in saying "the Anglo-Saxons." Why? Because 'we' don't (didn't ?) differentiate between UK and the US: same language, same vision of the World, same will of universal domination (so same opposition to 'our' will of universal domination, IMO the main reason why we are (were?) so opposed). There's an "anglo-saxon" block, a souvenir of the English Empire, constituted by the US, UK, Australia, New Zealand and at a lesser degree Canada. The damage this did to relations with America was hastily covered up and a myth was invented to explain the breach. It was said that poor Anthony Eden was physically ill and wasn't thinking straight. Funny, this explanation was invented on your side of the Channel only. On my side, I was taught the Suez expedition was ended because of the pressure of the US, which followed threats made by USSR. One of the consequences was that France decided to become a nuclear power, to be able to have an independent foreign policy. I also totally agree with the comments made by Jeremy Fleming from Belgium.
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Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted - Groucho Marx (1890-1977)K(arl) wrote: Why? Because 'we' don't (didn't ?) differentiate between UK and the US: same language, same vision of the World, same will of universal domination (so same opposition to 'our' will of universal domination, IMO the main reason why we are (were?) so opposed). Hmm. I really would not say that the UK has the same views as the US. We also have different views though to France and Germany. We don't want to be a federal state, we like being ourselves. One of the big differences between the UK and the US, is that the UK does not like the US melting pot where everyone shares one identity!!! We like our identity. In that sense from the UK's point of view, France and Germany do want the US style melting pot and the UK does not. The triangle is complete. We want France to be French, and the Germany German, we like the EU, but don't want to see our cultures merge as in the US as we like the differnet identities as cultures and history. Thats whats feared in the UK. And its seems now, that France has spoken and decided it does not want to embrace the UK's Anglo Saxon economics either, which is part of what we are.
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K(arl) wrote: Why? Because 'we' don't (didn't ?) differentiate between UK and the US: same language, same vision of the World, same will of universal domination (so same opposition to 'our' will of universal domination, IMO the main reason why we are (were?) so opposed). Hmm. I really would not say that the UK has the same views as the US. We also have different views though to France and Germany. We don't want to be a federal state, we like being ourselves. One of the big differences between the UK and the US, is that the UK does not like the US melting pot where everyone shares one identity!!! We like our identity. In that sense from the UK's point of view, France and Germany do want the US style melting pot and the UK does not. The triangle is complete. We want France to be French, and the Germany German, we like the EU, but don't want to see our cultures merge as in the US as we like the differnet identities as cultures and history. Thats whats feared in the UK. And its seems now, that France has spoken and decided it does not want to embrace the UK's Anglo Saxon economics either, which is part of what we are.
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Giles wrote: France and Germany do want the US style melting pot and the UK does not I'm :~ about Germany. I'm not also sure the US realizes a melting-pot as we do in France, I rather see that as a superposition of cultures and groups rather than a melting. But maybe it is just another prejudice :) Giles wrote: We want France to be French, and the Germany Germ I'm sure Colin will be glad to hear you want also Scotland to be Scottish :-D Giles wrote: but don't want to see our cultures merge I don't think the EU is about culture merging, far from that. On the contrary, the EU is a way for regional "subcultures" to express themselves better than they could under an 'oppressive' centralized regime. Giles wrote: France has spoken and decided it does not want to embrace the UK's Anglo Saxon economics either Why was such a proposal in the constitution anyway? :confused:
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A bit more fuel for the fire..... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4586755.stm[^] I just think we should all launch now. :-D
I find it hard to disagree with most of the article. I would only add that even within the nations of "the west" there exist rifts between various factions struggling to take those nations in different cultural directions. The US is especially caught up in such a struggle as those of us on the "right" struggle to maintain those elements of our culture that have made us uniquely American, while those on the "left" seem determined to convert the US into little more than a European-esk social welfare state. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
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Giles wrote: France and Germany do want the US style melting pot and the UK does not I'm :~ about Germany. I'm not also sure the US realizes a melting-pot as we do in France, I rather see that as a superposition of cultures and groups rather than a melting. But maybe it is just another prejudice :) Giles wrote: We want France to be French, and the Germany Germ I'm sure Colin will be glad to hear you want also Scotland to be Scottish :-D Giles wrote: but don't want to see our cultures merge I don't think the EU is about culture merging, far from that. On the contrary, the EU is a way for regional "subcultures" to express themselves better than they could under an 'oppressive' centralized regime. Giles wrote: France has spoken and decided it does not want to embrace the UK's Anglo Saxon economics either Why was such a proposal in the constitution anyway? :confused:
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Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted - Groucho Marx (1890-1977)K(arl) wrote: I'm not also sure the US realizes a melting-pot as we do in France Huh? You're way off the mark. While we've never actually rendered immigrants our history and assumptions are that each immigrant group becomes an integrated part of the whole, adopting and in many cases forcing some level of change to American customs. Recent (last 30 years or so) liberal (USA verson) influence and massive illegal immigration has caused some Balkinization but that is being changed as we speak. Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me
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Giles wrote: France and Germany do want the US style melting pot and the UK does not I'm :~ about Germany. I'm not also sure the US realizes a melting-pot as we do in France, I rather see that as a superposition of cultures and groups rather than a melting. But maybe it is just another prejudice :) Giles wrote: We want France to be French, and the Germany Germ I'm sure Colin will be glad to hear you want also Scotland to be Scottish :-D Giles wrote: but don't want to see our cultures merge I don't think the EU is about culture merging, far from that. On the contrary, the EU is a way for regional "subcultures" to express themselves better than they could under an 'oppressive' centralized regime. Giles wrote: France has spoken and decided it does not want to embrace the UK's Anglo Saxon economics either Why was such a proposal in the constitution anyway? :confused:
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Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted - Groucho Marx (1890-1977)Maybe you should define what you mean by "melting pot". In the US, we have always understood that to mean that people come here from all over with various cultures and those all end up getting stirred into the mix, but that the soup itself remains "American". That is, we tolerate the occasional cultural differences, but expect everyone who comes here to adapt to the American culture. I can't imagine a nation doing that any better than we have always done. (Traditionally, anyway). "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
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Giles wrote: France and Germany do want the US style melting pot and the UK does not I'm :~ about Germany. I'm not also sure the US realizes a melting-pot as we do in France, I rather see that as a superposition of cultures and groups rather than a melting. But maybe it is just another prejudice :) Giles wrote: We want France to be French, and the Germany Germ I'm sure Colin will be glad to hear you want also Scotland to be Scottish :-D Giles wrote: but don't want to see our cultures merge I don't think the EU is about culture merging, far from that. On the contrary, the EU is a way for regional "subcultures" to express themselves better than they could under an 'oppressive' centralized regime. Giles wrote: France has spoken and decided it does not want to embrace the UK's Anglo Saxon economics either Why was such a proposal in the constitution anyway? :confused:
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Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted - Groucho Marx (1890-1977)K(arl) wrote: I'm sure Colin will be glad to hear you want also Scotland to be Scottish Well thats a different story about someone wanting to break away from an existing Union. France has had sepratists in the south. Spain has it. Scotland has it, and in all these sepratists are in a minority. In Scotland the SNP has 6 of 59 seats, of which one is the smallest constuency in the country of 20,000 agaist an average of 70,000. If they have a majority in Scotland people would have to sit up and take notice, but until then its not happening. K(arl) wrote: I don't think the EU is about culture merging, far from that. On the contrary, the EU is a way for regional "subcultures" to express themselves better than they could under an 'oppressive' centralized regime. The thing is it is about setting up a central regime. K(arl) wrote: France has spoken and decided it does not want to embrace the UK's Anglo Saxon economics either Why was such a proposal in the constitution anyway? Yep. Its was reinforcing the EU free market pricipals, making way for reform of the common agraculture policy, leading to the scrapping of it, where a lot of french farmers do very well out of it. They would be opened up to major international competition.
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K(arl) wrote: I'm not also sure the US realizes a melting-pot as we do in France Huh? You're way off the mark. While we've never actually rendered immigrants our history and assumptions are that each immigrant group becomes an integrated part of the whole, adopting and in many cases forcing some level of change to American customs. Recent (last 30 years or so) liberal (USA verson) influence and massive illegal immigration has caused some Balkinization but that is being changed as we speak. Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me
Mike Gaskey wrote: You're way off the mark I may be, I don't exclude this is a prejudice. Nonetheless, don't you consider yourself as a Polish-American?
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Maybe you should define what you mean by "melting pot". In the US, we have always understood that to mean that people come here from all over with various cultures and those all end up getting stirred into the mix, but that the soup itself remains "American". That is, we tolerate the occasional cultural differences, but expect everyone who comes here to adapt to the American culture. I can't imagine a nation doing that any better than we have always done. (Traditionally, anyway). "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Stan Shannon wrote: I can't imagine a nation doing that any better than we have always done You really lack of imagination ;P
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Stan Shannon wrote: I can't imagine a nation doing that any better than we have always done You really lack of imagination ;P
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Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted - Groucho Marx (1890-1977)K(arl) wrote: You really lack of imagination Maybe so, but how could we have done better? "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
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K(arl) wrote: I'm sure Colin will be glad to hear you want also Scotland to be Scottish Well thats a different story about someone wanting to break away from an existing Union. France has had sepratists in the south. Spain has it. Scotland has it, and in all these sepratists are in a minority. In Scotland the SNP has 6 of 59 seats, of which one is the smallest constuency in the country of 20,000 agaist an average of 70,000. If they have a majority in Scotland people would have to sit up and take notice, but until then its not happening. K(arl) wrote: I don't think the EU is about culture merging, far from that. On the contrary, the EU is a way for regional "subcultures" to express themselves better than they could under an 'oppressive' centralized regime. The thing is it is about setting up a central regime. K(arl) wrote: France has spoken and decided it does not want to embrace the UK's Anglo Saxon economics either Why was such a proposal in the constitution anyway? Yep. Its was reinforcing the EU free market pricipals, making way for reform of the common agraculture policy, leading to the scrapping of it, where a lot of french farmers do very well out of it. They would be opened up to major international competition.
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Giles wrote: France has had sepratists in the south. There are separatists in Brittany (discredited after WW2, some breton separatists having collaborated with the Nazis), Savoy[^] (very minority), Basque country and Corsica (for the latter, I believe most of the French are in favour of the independence of Corsica...but nobody asks for our opinion) Giles wrote: The thing is it is about setting up a central regime. We are not yet toalking about a Federation. I hope it will come someday, but we are very far from that. Giles wrote: Its was reinforcing the EU free market pricipals And this has nothing to do in a constitution. Then the feeling there was a kind of trap. Giles wrote: where a lot of french farmers do very well out of it Agreed. Farmers are a minority, but which is very virulent and potentially violent, that's why governements (whatever their orientation) don't dare to go against their interests. Farmers are either right wingers howling against State intervention but keen to get subsidies or left wingers hippies believing in 'communitarism': a bunch of people out-of-touch, IMO.
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K(arl) wrote: You really lack of imagination Maybe so, but how could we have done better? "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
What about not having exterminated the Indians, for instance, and integrated them in the community? Also, is it easy to be a black man and living in the Deep South? I don't throw the first stone, we have many problems linked to integration[^] too
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Mike Gaskey wrote: You're way off the mark I may be, I don't exclude this is a prejudice. Nonetheless, don't you consider yourself as a Polish-American?
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Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted - Groucho Marx (1890-1977)K(arl) wrote: Nonetheless, don't you consider yourself as a Polish-American? No. I consider myself as an American whose heritage is Polish. I absolutely abhor designations you see in the news. The terms, for example: African-Americans, Mexican-Americans, etc - are absolutely stupid and should be outlawed. Back to the Polish thing. This influences the lens that I view things through. I am stubborn, as an example, and once I decide to do something I will not let anything stop me. That is an attribute (or non-attribute) that I credit to my Polish extraction. Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me
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Giles wrote: France has had sepratists in the south. There are separatists in Brittany (discredited after WW2, some breton separatists having collaborated with the Nazis), Savoy[^] (very minority), Basque country and Corsica (for the latter, I believe most of the French are in favour of the independence of Corsica...but nobody asks for our opinion) Giles wrote: The thing is it is about setting up a central regime. We are not yet toalking about a Federation. I hope it will come someday, but we are very far from that. Giles wrote: Its was reinforcing the EU free market pricipals And this has nothing to do in a constitution. Then the feeling there was a kind of trap. Giles wrote: where a lot of french farmers do very well out of it Agreed. Farmers are a minority, but which is very virulent and potentially violent, that's why governements (whatever their orientation) don't dare to go against their interests. Farmers are either right wingers howling against State intervention but keen to get subsidies or left wingers hippies believing in 'communitarism': a bunch of people out-of-touch, IMO.
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Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted - Groucho Marx (1890-1977)K(arl) wrote: There are separatists in Brittany (discredited after WW2, some breton separatists having collaborated with the Nazis), Savoy[^] (very minority), Basque country and Corsica (for the latter, I believe most of the French are in favour of the independence of Corsica...but nobody asks for our opinion) More then than I thought. K(arl) wrote: And this has nothing to do in a constitution. Then the feeling there was a kind of trap. One of the reasons the EU was set up was that free trade helps avoid wars. The common market, and they were trying to reinforce that. K(arl) wrote: Agreed. Farmers are a minority, but which is very virulent and potentially violent, that's why governements (whatever their orientation) don't dare to go against their interests. Farmers are either right wingers howling against State intervention but keen to get subsidies or left wingers hippies believing in 'communitarism': a bunch of people out-of-touch, IMO. As far as I am aware its it only French farmers that act like this. e.g. setting fire to sheep in the capital. I know of no other european country today where farmers act like this and are so feared by their government.
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K(arl) wrote: Nonetheless, don't you consider yourself as a Polish-American? No. I consider myself as an American whose heritage is Polish. I absolutely abhor designations you see in the news. The terms, for example: African-Americans, Mexican-Americans, etc - are absolutely stupid and should be outlawed. Back to the Polish thing. This influences the lens that I view things through. I am stubborn, as an example, and once I decide to do something I will not let anything stop me. That is an attribute (or non-attribute) that I credit to my Polish extraction. Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me
Mike Gaskey wrote: The terms, for example: African-Americans, Mexican-Americans, etc - are absolutely stupid and should be outlawed. I was fooled by these denominations, I stand corrected now. Mike Gaskey wrote: hat is an attribute (or non-attribute) that I credit to my Polish extraction. I'm not from polish origin, but I'm stubborn too! :-D
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K(arl) wrote: There are separatists in Brittany (discredited after WW2, some breton separatists having collaborated with the Nazis), Savoy[^] (very minority), Basque country and Corsica (for the latter, I believe most of the French are in favour of the independence of Corsica...but nobody asks for our opinion) More then than I thought. K(arl) wrote: And this has nothing to do in a constitution. Then the feeling there was a kind of trap. One of the reasons the EU was set up was that free trade helps avoid wars. The common market, and they were trying to reinforce that. K(arl) wrote: Agreed. Farmers are a minority, but which is very virulent and potentially violent, that's why governements (whatever their orientation) don't dare to go against their interests. Farmers are either right wingers howling against State intervention but keen to get subsidies or left wingers hippies believing in 'communitarism': a bunch of people out-of-touch, IMO. As far as I am aware its it only French farmers that act like this. e.g. setting fire to sheep in the capital. I know of no other european country today where farmers act like this and are so feared by their government.
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Giles wrote: I know of no other european country today where farmers act like this and are so feared by their government. In western europe, there is no country where agriculture is so important. 'We' are still a rural country in many ways. Don't hesitate to cross the Channel and have a look :)
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What about not having exterminated the Indians, for instance, and integrated them in the community? Also, is it easy to be a black man and living in the Deep South? I don't throw the first stone, we have many problems linked to integration[^] too
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Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted - Groucho Marx (1890-1977)That is a bit like comparing modern France to Caesars conquest of Gaul - a bit bloody if I recall. Last mother's day, I went to buy a card for my wife. There were three families there buying mother's day cards also. All three of them were racially mixed (white-black) couples and that was in Knoxville, TN. In fact, you would be hard pressed to find a white family in the South that does not have a part African grandchild or nephew/neice. Not to ignore lingering racism, but I think we can say the problem has been largely dealt with. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
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Giles wrote: I know of no other european country today where farmers act like this and are so feared by their government. In western europe, there is no country where agriculture is so important. 'We' are still a rural country in many ways. Don't hesitate to cross the Channel and have a look :)
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Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted - Groucho Marx (1890-1977)K(arl) wrote: In western europe, there is no country where agriculture is so important. 'We' are still a rural country in many ways. Don't hesitate to cross the Channel and have a look I know it is. I've lost count of the times I've visted France on holiday. Been doing it since I was a child, and have kept it up with my wife who is also a fan. We probably pop over about once a year. Last time I was over was just before Chirtmas. Though I won't make it again until April next year when my wife and I, along with a small group of freinds plan to rent a cottage for a couple of weeks, though we have not decided on where yet. Any recommendations? There are still lots of countries in Europe with an agraculture based economy, its just in France the farmers are something to be feared as when they get upset they really get upset. Funnily enough our farmers took a leaf out of the french farmer book and held the country to ransom a couple of years ago over petrol prices. They blockaded the fuel refineries around the country causing shortages, along with go slow protests on motorways. Was quite good to watch. Funnily the problem was made much worse as everyone went out at the first sign of trouble and filled up their cars, causing normal 2 weeks worth of supply to only last 3 days, which made the problem worse, and caused it to feed on itself, in a nice example of a natural feedback loop. It was as if we could have been watching ants, except they are smarter and have natural cutoffs for that kind of thing. :laugh:
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That is a bit like comparing modern France to Caesars conquest of Gaul - a bit bloody if I recall. Last mother's day, I went to buy a card for my wife. There were three families there buying mother's day cards also. All three of them were racially mixed (white-black) couples and that was in Knoxville, TN. In fact, you would be hard pressed to find a white family in the South that does not have a part African grandchild or nephew/neice. Not to ignore lingering racism, but I think we can say the problem has been largely dealt with. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."
Stan Shannon wrote: In fact, you would be hard pressed to find a white family in the South that does not have a part African grandchild or nephew/neice. I have a great grandson - half and half (Dallas) I have a niece - half and half (Omaha) Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me
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Stan Shannon wrote: In fact, you would be hard pressed to find a white family in the South that does not have a part African grandchild or nephew/neice. I have a great grandson - half and half (Dallas) I have a niece - half and half (Omaha) Mike "liberals were driven crazy by Bush." Me To: Dixie Sluts, M. Moore, the Boss, Bon Jovi, Clooney, Penn, Babs, Soros, Redford, Gore, Daschle - "bye bye" Me "I voted for W." Me "There you go again." RR "Flushed the Johns" Me
Just out of curiosity, do they face much racism? Nature seems to be following its usually course as the rediculous, artificial, barriers of the past appear to have collapsed entirely. But I might be ignorant of the lingering challanges children of "mixed race" (even that phrase no longer seems to make any sense) are still confronted with. "Capitalism is the source of all true freedom."