Language debates
-
Singularity? Nah, I read the comments: However, we do have around some assembly code. Like a kernel written in C, our C# kernel needs assembly code to handle the lowest part of the interrupt dispatch on the x86. But once the assembly code has finished, it dispatches directly into compiled C# (no C). BTW, there is some C code in the system, primarily for the debugger stub. (Emphasis added) Guess us C# programmers can't get too smug just yet ;P
well, I know. I've read that too... But still it's cool. Ian Darling wrote: Guess us C# programmers can't get too smug just yet :sigh: But one day we'll rule the world. :evil wink:
-
After reading the C# vs C++ debate below I have to say I do find it all rather sad. I mean c'mon. A lot of people went out and became very good with C# after being told it was the premier dev language for .NET (which is, of course, the premier dev environment for all of humankind - no really it is - honest) Now that C++ is being re-promoted to a first class language in the MS dev world it seems we don't all have to move to C# if we don't want to. In other words, haven't all those people who bothered to learn C# kind of wasted their time? Just a little bit? And what with C-omega (whatever the hell that is) on the horizon isn't C# basically going to become the new VB? I'm not trying to be inflammatory here. I can just imagine the taste of sour grapes in some people's mouths about now no?
First of all, C++ was always a 1st class member of the .NET world, both through managed C++ ( which sucks ), and through Microsoft's commitment to bringing their compiler into C++ standards compliance ( which is still happening ). Secondly, anyone who went and learned C# because they were told to is a bit silly ( why learn something you have no use for ), but no knowledge is a waste of time, I'm glad I learned Python for example, although I'll never use it again, because it gives me another perspective on language design, if nothing else. Third - what IS C-Omega ? I am a Microsoft MVP, which means I am under NDA to Microsoft and get access to all sorts of information, and I can tell you, I've never heard of it. fakefur wrote: isn't C# basically going to become the new VB? C# will never be VB, because it doesn't carry the same baggage. It is, however, similar in that it's a language that hides the messy stuff from you. The core reason for C# to exist in my opinion is ASP.NET. Beyond that, I use C# for WinForms because I use it so much anyhow. If I didn't use ASP.NET, I would not have learned C# at all. That doesn't mean it sucks, just that I would not have learned it just because of the marketing. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ P.S. Now I know what C Omega is, I don't follow all the research, wild blue yonder stuff, although I did when it was generics.
-
First of all, C++ was always a 1st class member of the .NET world, both through managed C++ ( which sucks ), and through Microsoft's commitment to bringing their compiler into C++ standards compliance ( which is still happening ). Secondly, anyone who went and learned C# because they were told to is a bit silly ( why learn something you have no use for ), but no knowledge is a waste of time, I'm glad I learned Python for example, although I'll never use it again, because it gives me another perspective on language design, if nothing else. Third - what IS C-Omega ? I am a Microsoft MVP, which means I am under NDA to Microsoft and get access to all sorts of information, and I can tell you, I've never heard of it. fakefur wrote: isn't C# basically going to become the new VB? C# will never be VB, because it doesn't carry the same baggage. It is, however, similar in that it's a language that hides the messy stuff from you. The core reason for C# to exist in my opinion is ASP.NET. Beyond that, I use C# for WinForms because I use it so much anyhow. If I didn't use ASP.NET, I would not have learned C# at all. That doesn't mean it sucks, just that I would not have learned it just because of the marketing. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ P.S. Now I know what C Omega is, I don't follow all the research, wild blue yonder stuff, although I did when it was generics.
Christian Graus wrote: Third - what IS C-Omega ? I am a Microsoft MVP, which means I am under NDA to Microsoft and get access to all sorts of information, and I can tell you, I've never heard of it. :wtf: I am really confused... is it because he should write Cw or Cω or you really don't know Cw? Look at Daniel's post for link. David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidy -
Christian Graus wrote: Third - what IS C-Omega ? I am a Microsoft MVP, which means I am under NDA to Microsoft and get access to all sorts of information, and I can tell you, I've never heard of it. :wtf: I am really confused... is it because he should write Cw or Cω or you really don't know Cw? Look at Daniel's post for link. David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidydnh wrote: you really don't know Cw? Look at Daniel's post for link. I'd never heard of it. I have the link now. I have to admit, I am a C++ MVP, although I've asked for any info to do with ASP.NET and C# to funnel my way also. This looks more like the sort of stuff you have to look for, not stuff that's at a point of being announced, given that it's not being released, as such. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
-
dnh wrote: you really don't know Cw? Look at Daniel's post for link. I'd never heard of it. I have the link now. I have to admit, I am a C++ MVP, although I've asked for any info to do with ASP.NET and C# to funnel my way also. This looks more like the sort of stuff you have to look for, not stuff that's at a point of being announced, given that it's not being released, as such. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote: This looks more like the sort of stuff you have to look for, not stuff that's at a point of being announced, given that it's not being released, as such. true. It's here for a while, however Cw was never intended (AFAIK) as a mainstream language. Like F# and other things... btw research.microsoft.com[^] is interesting place to browse :) OTOH some people have better things to do then just browse internet... :-O David Never forget: "Stay kul and happy" (I.A.)
David's thoughts / dnhsoftware.org / MyHTMLTidy -
fakefur wrote: A lot of people went out and became very good with C# after being told it was the premier dev language for .NET Well, I jumped onto the C# bandwaggon because of some really neat things, like reflection. I certainly don't listen to the MS marketing hype, so jumping on it because we're told it's the cat's meow is a pretty bad reason. fakefur wrote: In other words, haven't all those people who bothered to learn C# kind of wasted their time? No, I've learned another tool. If a client asks, "do you think this should be written with C# or C++", I can give them an informed answer. I've learned some new techniques, that I find myself applying when I do C++ programming. fakefur wrote: And what with C-omega (whatever the hell that is) That's a research project.[^] Nothing to get excited about, unless you're into that sort of thing. fakefur wrote: Now that C++ is being re-promoted to a first class language in the MS dev Did I miss something? You're not talking about managed code in C++ are you? Ugh. Marc My website
Latest Articles: Undo/Redo Buffer Memento Design PatternMarc Clifton wrote: we're told it's the cat's meow I like that :laugh: The tigress is here :-D
-
First of all, C++ was always a 1st class member of the .NET world, both through managed C++ ( which sucks ), and through Microsoft's commitment to bringing their compiler into C++ standards compliance ( which is still happening ). Secondly, anyone who went and learned C# because they were told to is a bit silly ( why learn something you have no use for ), but no knowledge is a waste of time, I'm glad I learned Python for example, although I'll never use it again, because it gives me another perspective on language design, if nothing else. Third - what IS C-Omega ? I am a Microsoft MVP, which means I am under NDA to Microsoft and get access to all sorts of information, and I can tell you, I've never heard of it. fakefur wrote: isn't C# basically going to become the new VB? C# will never be VB, because it doesn't carry the same baggage. It is, however, similar in that it's a language that hides the messy stuff from you. The core reason for C# to exist in my opinion is ASP.NET. Beyond that, I use C# for WinForms because I use it so much anyhow. If I didn't use ASP.NET, I would not have learned C# at all. That doesn't mean it sucks, just that I would not have learned it just because of the marketing. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ P.S. Now I know what C Omega is, I don't follow all the research, wild blue yonder stuff, although I did when it was generics.
Christian Graus wrote: I am a Microsoft MVP, which means I am under NDA to Microsoft and get access to all sorts of information, and I can tell you, I've never heard of it. I see that the dark side has corrupted you. Not even bothering to try google[^]??? Shame on you! ;P Marc My website
Latest Articles: Undo/Redo Buffer Memento Design Pattern -
Christian Graus wrote: I am a Microsoft MVP, which means I am under NDA to Microsoft and get access to all sorts of information, and I can tell you, I've never heard of it. I see that the dark side has corrupted you. Not even bothering to try google[^]??? Shame on you! ;P Marc My website
Latest Articles: Undo/Redo Buffer Memento Design PatternMarc Clifton wrote: Not even bothering to try google[^]??? Not at all - the first thing I do every day is work through the CP forums to answer questions ( well, the second, first I go through my gmail for replies to stuff I answered before ). I rarely post in the lounge, but this one got my attention, and I was fully intending on going through the responses to see if any info was there, and to google it. My point was that if Cw is a Microsft thing ( as was implied, and as is the case ), it's not something that needs to be on every developers radar as a replacement for C# ( as was implied ), given that they aren't even talking about it to us, let alone to developers generally. Marc Clifton wrote: I see that the dark side has corrupted you. Yes, but the dark side has more power..... Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
-
After reading the C# vs C++ debate below I have to say I do find it all rather sad. I mean c'mon. A lot of people went out and became very good with C# after being told it was the premier dev language for .NET (which is, of course, the premier dev environment for all of humankind - no really it is - honest) Now that C++ is being re-promoted to a first class language in the MS dev world it seems we don't all have to move to C# if we don't want to. In other words, haven't all those people who bothered to learn C# kind of wasted their time? Just a little bit? And what with C-omega (whatever the hell that is) on the horizon isn't C# basically going to become the new VB? I'm not trying to be inflammatory here. I can just imagine the taste of sour grapes in some people's mouths about now no?
fakefur wrote: In other words, haven't all those people who bothered to learn C# kind of wasted their time? Just a little bit? Yes but they don't want to admit it. Although the exposure should have done them some good, a different perspective maybe they have now. COmega looks very purpose orientated, possibly it might not survive as a stand alone language, but will have features included into another a language launch. Regardz Colin J Davies The most LinkedIn CPian (that I know of anyhow) :-)
-
Christian Graus wrote: I am a Microsoft MVP, which means I am under NDA to Microsoft and get access to all sorts of information, and I can tell you, I've never heard of it. I see that the dark side has corrupted you. Not even bothering to try google[^]??? Shame on you! ;P Marc My website
Latest Articles: Undo/Redo Buffer Memento Design PatternMarc Clifton wrote: Not even bothering to try google[^]??? Shame on you! He's probably using MSN Search :) I see dead pixels Yes, even I am blogging now!
-
After reading the C# vs C++ debate below I have to say I do find it all rather sad. I mean c'mon. A lot of people went out and became very good with C# after being told it was the premier dev language for .NET (which is, of course, the premier dev environment for all of humankind - no really it is - honest) Now that C++ is being re-promoted to a first class language in the MS dev world it seems we don't all have to move to C# if we don't want to. In other words, haven't all those people who bothered to learn C# kind of wasted their time? Just a little bit? And what with C-omega (whatever the hell that is) on the horizon isn't C# basically going to become the new VB? I'm not trying to be inflammatory here. I can just imagine the taste of sour grapes in some people's mouths about now no?
Well people can "debate" all they want to, but the rest of us will go on making money with whatever tool gets the job done. Most of the so called "debate" boils down to plain old ignorance, stupidity and most importantly superstition as it usually does on message boards since at least the old Relay Mail days of BBS's.
"A preoccupation with the next world pretty clearly signals an inability to cope credibly with this one."
-
Ian Darling wrote: I agree, all this language debating is pointless I agree that it can become pointless. However, there is possibly a way of rating the general usefulness of a general use programming langauge. What langauge can you use to do almost anything everything you've ever wanted to do - and more? - and do that it a productive fashion. To me, that's what the whole debate should be about! Joel Holdsworth Wanna give me a job this summer? Check out my online CV and project history[^] - now available in MSWord format![^]
Joel Holdsworth wrote: I agree that it can become pointless No, the so called "debate" *is* pointless. It's little more than a competition to see if superstition or ignorance make the better argument. A language is a tool, mastering several languages, countless different technologies and techniques and knowing when to use them is the hallmark of a professional developer. A professional mechanic knows you don't use a pipe wrench to bolt down a cylinder head even though a pipe wrench is capable of turning a bolt and it's not bad at hammering either. An amateur blunders around pipe wrenching everything in site because it does "almost everything". Debates are for ivory towers and universities, anyone wanting to make money as a professional developer would be well advised to spend less time debating and more time learning.
"A preoccupation with the next world pretty clearly signals an inability to cope credibly with this one."
-
Singularity? Nah, I read the comments: However, we do have around some assembly code. Like a kernel written in C, our C# kernel needs assembly code to handle the lowest part of the interrupt dispatch on the x86. But once the assembly code has finished, it dispatches directly into compiled C# (no C). BTW, there is some C code in the system, primarily for the debugger stub. (Emphasis added) Guess us C# programmers can't get too smug just yet ;P
-
Marc Clifton wrote: Not even bothering to try google[^]??? Shame on you! He's probably using MSN Search :) I see dead pixels Yes, even I am blogging now!
-
Ian Darling wrote: Guess us C# programmers can't get too smug just yet Maybe .net will be built into the bios in future.
"A preoccupation with the next world pretty clearly signals an inability to cope credibly with this one."
Yeah, then it can stand for BLOATED Input/Output System...