Trying to learn and work with Microsoft products is like trying to herd cats
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Dead right. The absolute lack of overview (context) information in all Microsoft documentation is absurd. IMO, the only decent technology MS has released in the last 5 years is GDI+.. and the docs for that are some of the worst I've seen (all the C# and VB crap mixed in with the C++ documentation)
Thanks, it does my soul good to know I'm not the only one wandering in the wilderness.
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I envy you. I was doing Unix C++ and Oracle and then just Oracle PL/SQL. But those jobs seem to have gotten extremely scarce. Stroustrup's "The C++ Programming Language" (at least from the third edition on) is absolutely best written technical book I've ever seen. "The C# Programming Language" on the other hand is sad by comparison. Same as most MS doc, it's all over the place. I think they drink too much coffee and can't focus.
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There is WAY to much information (and lack there of) in the Microsoft environment that is not available without going spelunking to Hell and back. I've got a library of 17 books just on ADO.Net, ASP.Net, C#, the Framework, DHTML & Javascript. (At about $50 pop (list anyway) and all are about to be obsoleted by .Net 2.) Most of them seem to completely ignore a lot of the more difficult and distasteful issues. IMHO, MSDN is hypertext Hell. They document the crap out of indivdual parameters but never explain how they are meant to be used together. And the circular references, Jeez! The Internet resources, like The Code Project, do a great job of sharing information and techniques but seldom point to any underlying documentation. The search for documentation combined with trial-and-error are HUGELY inefficient time-wise. So, why am I here? Trying to get some skills that'll keep me in pancakes and fuel oil. Damn, I miss IBM and Oracle documentation! Sorry, I just had to vent. ;P Will
OldDog.Net wrote: Trying to learn and work with Microsoft products is like trying to herd cats Actually... herding cats is a metaphor often misused since someone who actually knows domesticated cats will know how to herd them. I have herded 4 at a time at my previous residence, and 9 for a friend. Much easier than any Microsoft product. just loudly open a can of tuna waft it over the cats and then walk where you want to go, they will all herd themselves. :) _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Not so sure, from what I see there seem to be a good mixture of C++ and .NET jobs going around. Probably not so many Windows, Linux & Solaris jobs like I do though.
Exactly, that's why I've been home for the last four months, living on my savings, learning C# and ASP.Net and SQL Server (and a load of other stuff that I had no idea was involved). I've hooked up with a non-profit and I'm writing a thin-client (does anyone still use that term?) application for them. I was stuck doing the same back-end batch Oracle PL/SQL stuff for 4 1/2 years at Unilever and they would not let me post to another area. I still have too many years ahead of me to become professionally irrelevant. BTW: How the hell does anyone come out of these two week boot camps with half a clue? My guess is that they don't.
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OldDog.Net wrote: Trying to learn and work with Microsoft products is like trying to herd cats Actually... herding cats is a metaphor often misused since someone who actually knows domesticated cats will know how to herd them. I have herded 4 at a time at my previous residence, and 9 for a friend. Much easier than any Microsoft product. just loudly open a can of tuna waft it over the cats and then walk where you want to go, they will all herd themselves. :) _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Thanks for the laugh! Ok, now let them all outside, wait 60 secords, and get them all back into the house.;P
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Exactly, that's why I've been home for the last four months, living on my savings, learning C# and ASP.Net and SQL Server (and a load of other stuff that I had no idea was involved). I've hooked up with a non-profit and I'm writing a thin-client (does anyone still use that term?) application for them. I was stuck doing the same back-end batch Oracle PL/SQL stuff for 4 1/2 years at Unilever and they would not let me post to another area. I still have too many years ahead of me to become professionally irrelevant. BTW: How the hell does anyone come out of these two week boot camps with half a clue? My guess is that they don't.
OldDog.Net wrote: I'm writing a thin-client (does anyone still use that term?) application for them Hmmm, not unless you are a tech exec in a big company, who is 5 years out of date. The rest of us who are human (non out of date manager types), call it web based. :-D OldDog.Net wrote: I was stuck doing the same back-end batch Oracle PL/SQL stuff for 4 1/2 years at Unilever Run for the hills. Sounds like you made the right choice. Preserving ones sanity is important. OldDog.Net wrote: BTW: How the hell does anyone come out of these two week boot camps with half a clue? My guess is that they don't. I can see the ad now - Get a job in IT by doing this 2 week course. Disclaimer - there is absolutely fuck all chance of you getting a job in IT, unless the person interviewing you knows even less, which is unlikey, unless its a tech exec in a big company.
"Je pense, donc je mange." - Rene Descartes 1689 - Just before his mother put his tea on the table. Shameless Plug - Distributed Database Transactions in .NET using COM+
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Thanks for the laugh! Ok, now let them all outside, wait 60 secords, and get them all back into the house.;P
Tell the neighbor to let the dogs out. :-)
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There is WAY to much information (and lack there of) in the Microsoft environment that is not available without going spelunking to Hell and back. I've got a library of 17 books just on ADO.Net, ASP.Net, C#, the Framework, DHTML & Javascript. (At about $50 pop (list anyway) and all are about to be obsoleted by .Net 2.) Most of them seem to completely ignore a lot of the more difficult and distasteful issues. IMHO, MSDN is hypertext Hell. They document the crap out of indivdual parameters but never explain how they are meant to be used together. And the circular references, Jeez! The Internet resources, like The Code Project, do a great job of sharing information and techniques but seldom point to any underlying documentation. The search for documentation combined with trial-and-error are HUGELY inefficient time-wise. So, why am I here? Trying to get some skills that'll keep me in pancakes and fuel oil. Damn, I miss IBM and Oracle documentation! Sorry, I just had to vent. ;P Will
I agree. The first programming platform I ever owned was Borland C/C++ 3. It came with a stack of books. I think the concept of an 'MSDN" is great - IF it were supplemental reference material. But it is no replacement for a formal set of platform documentation. But all in all, I still think VS is the best thing going.
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OldDog.Net wrote: I'm writing a thin-client (does anyone still use that term?) application for them Hmmm, not unless you are a tech exec in a big company, who is 5 years out of date. The rest of us who are human (non out of date manager types), call it web based. :-D OldDog.Net wrote: I was stuck doing the same back-end batch Oracle PL/SQL stuff for 4 1/2 years at Unilever Run for the hills. Sounds like you made the right choice. Preserving ones sanity is important. OldDog.Net wrote: BTW: How the hell does anyone come out of these two week boot camps with half a clue? My guess is that they don't. I can see the ad now - Get a job in IT by doing this 2 week course. Disclaimer - there is absolutely fuck all chance of you getting a job in IT, unless the person interviewing you knows even less, which is unlikey, unless its a tech exec in a big company.
"Je pense, donc je mange." - Rene Descartes 1689 - Just before his mother put his tea on the table. Shameless Plug - Distributed Database Transactions in .NET using COM+
Yeah, so basically what you're saying is I'm 5 years out of date. I knew that! But I'm not ashamed. Prior to spending my 4 1/2 years in limbo, I got to do some pretty cool stuff. BTW: Here's another one for you: WYSIWYG! I asked someone if they'd ever heard that term the other day. What a look they gave me. "Huh?! What planet are you from, anyway." I like your ad with the disclaimer. Make the letters big please. But, the tech exec in the big company doesn't need to know Jack Whats-his-name because there are web sites with tech questions for every occasion. Some even supply the answers. I almost went for a 3 month boot camp myself but, for the price I, figured I could do better on my own.
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There is WAY to much information (and lack there of) in the Microsoft environment that is not available without going spelunking to Hell and back. I've got a library of 17 books just on ADO.Net, ASP.Net, C#, the Framework, DHTML & Javascript. (At about $50 pop (list anyway) and all are about to be obsoleted by .Net 2.) Most of them seem to completely ignore a lot of the more difficult and distasteful issues. IMHO, MSDN is hypertext Hell. They document the crap out of indivdual parameters but never explain how they are meant to be used together. And the circular references, Jeez! The Internet resources, like The Code Project, do a great job of sharing information and techniques but seldom point to any underlying documentation. The search for documentation combined with trial-and-error are HUGELY inefficient time-wise. So, why am I here? Trying to get some skills that'll keep me in pancakes and fuel oil. Damn, I miss IBM and Oracle documentation! Sorry, I just had to vent. ;P Will
the old off-line (VC 1,2,4,5,6) MSDN was OK - at least it was fast. the MSDN for VS .Net, though, ugh. it does sucketh .... and it sucketh slowly... a little too slowly. Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
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There is WAY to much information (and lack there of) in the Microsoft environment that is not available without going spelunking to Hell and back. I've got a library of 17 books just on ADO.Net, ASP.Net, C#, the Framework, DHTML & Javascript. (At about $50 pop (list anyway) and all are about to be obsoleted by .Net 2.) Most of them seem to completely ignore a lot of the more difficult and distasteful issues. IMHO, MSDN is hypertext Hell. They document the crap out of indivdual parameters but never explain how they are meant to be used together. And the circular references, Jeez! The Internet resources, like The Code Project, do a great job of sharing information and techniques but seldom point to any underlying documentation. The search for documentation combined with trial-and-error are HUGELY inefficient time-wise. So, why am I here? Trying to get some skills that'll keep me in pancakes and fuel oil. Damn, I miss IBM and Oracle documentation! Sorry, I just had to vent. ;P Will
The docs really does suck. Some of the time, I only use MSDN as a collection of google search keywords... Good music: In my rosary[^]
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the old off-line (VC 1,2,4,5,6) MSDN was OK - at least it was fast. the MSDN for VS .Net, though, ugh. it does sucketh .... and it sucketh slowly... a little too slowly. Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
Chris Losinger wrote: at least it was fast That's about the only difference. Much of the MSDN docs, which aren't about .NET, are basicially the old docs, but with pretty colors. Good music: In my rosary[^]
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Tell the neighbor to let the dogs out. :-)
rwestgraham wrote: Tell the neighbor to let the dogs out. that is stampeding cats... and if you have ever had four cats run across your body at full speed with claws... it is something to be avoided. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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I agree. The first programming platform I ever owned was Borland C/C++ 3. It came with a stack of books. I think the concept of an 'MSDN" is great - IF it were supplemental reference material. But it is no replacement for a formal set of platform documentation. But all in all, I still think VS is the best thing going.
I agree completely. Others do and have been doing it right since long before there was a Microsoft. There just no excuse. MSDN is a wonderful construct containing 3rd rate or at least (intentionally???) incomplete information. VS.Net is an amazing IDE for amazing (though still somewhat half baked) software semi-documented in an unfortunately inscrutable manner. Sometimes I wonder if they're promoting personality cults by having certain highly visible Microsoft developers, e.g. Dino Esposito, come down off the mountain with the commandments that everyone has been thirsting for.
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There is WAY to much information (and lack there of) in the Microsoft environment that is not available without going spelunking to Hell and back. I've got a library of 17 books just on ADO.Net, ASP.Net, C#, the Framework, DHTML & Javascript. (At about $50 pop (list anyway) and all are about to be obsoleted by .Net 2.) Most of them seem to completely ignore a lot of the more difficult and distasteful issues. IMHO, MSDN is hypertext Hell. They document the crap out of indivdual parameters but never explain how they are meant to be used together. And the circular references, Jeez! The Internet resources, like The Code Project, do a great job of sharing information and techniques but seldom point to any underlying documentation. The search for documentation combined with trial-and-error are HUGELY inefficient time-wise. So, why am I here? Trying to get some skills that'll keep me in pancakes and fuel oil. Damn, I miss IBM and Oracle documentation! Sorry, I just had to vent. ;P Will
I've programmed a few systems, and MSDN is a true joy. Should there ever be a "Madame Solveig" API, we would have "About Madame Solveig" (explainig concepts and terms), "Using Madame Solveig" (giving examples on common tasks) and "Madame Solveig Reference" (documenting parameters and error conditions fairly detailed). Yes, it's hyperlinked - If Madame Solveig were married to Microsoft Bob, each would have a link to the other. That's what hyperlinks are for! OldDog.Net wrote: I've got a library of 17 books just on ADO.Net, ASP.Net, C#, the Framework, DHTML & Javascript. Books today are often a pain, and it seems it's not always the authors fault.
Pandoras Gift #44: Hope. The one that keeps you on suffering.
aber.. "Wie gesagt, der Scheiss is' Therapie"
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygen -
I've programmed a few systems, and MSDN is a true joy. Should there ever be a "Madame Solveig" API, we would have "About Madame Solveig" (explainig concepts and terms), "Using Madame Solveig" (giving examples on common tasks) and "Madame Solveig Reference" (documenting parameters and error conditions fairly detailed). Yes, it's hyperlinked - If Madame Solveig were married to Microsoft Bob, each would have a link to the other. That's what hyperlinks are for! OldDog.Net wrote: I've got a library of 17 books just on ADO.Net, ASP.Net, C#, the Framework, DHTML & Javascript. Books today are often a pain, and it seems it's not always the authors fault.
Pandoras Gift #44: Hope. The one that keeps you on suffering.
aber.. "Wie gesagt, der Scheiss is' Therapie"
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygenHyperlinks are wonderful. Hyperlinking crap to other crap still gives you nothing more than hyperlinked crap. 100 million cross references is not a substitute for structure or content. Information is not readily available. It is dispersed over a large area. Detail, while abundant, is of little use in absense of context (as mentioned in another post, above). There IS a plethora of code snippets. How to accomplish a single instance of a particular task with one combination of components/parameters etc. And there are legions of professionals who accomplish their tasks by cobbling together these snippets with only a vague understanding of the code that they are using. Case in point, when I recently asked for help with a problem in which "inline expressions" were not resolving, a couple people offered bogus advice, one person suggested an alternative (thanks), and one person had the answer (thanks VERY much). I asked him where I could find this information that he had shared with me. No idea. I can't find any mention on MSDN or any of my sometimes helpful books. He knew but how? Someone else told him? Oral histories were a great way to pass the time sitting around the fire in the cave but for this? Or maybe he read it in another post or article. Who knows. Everybody who hits that problem is going to suffer through tacking down the resolution or give up and try to come up with a work-around. Is that RAD? Is that a productivity tool?
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Hyperlinks are wonderful. Hyperlinking crap to other crap still gives you nothing more than hyperlinked crap. 100 million cross references is not a substitute for structure or content. Information is not readily available. It is dispersed over a large area. Detail, while abundant, is of little use in absense of context (as mentioned in another post, above). There IS a plethora of code snippets. How to accomplish a single instance of a particular task with one combination of components/parameters etc. And there are legions of professionals who accomplish their tasks by cobbling together these snippets with only a vague understanding of the code that they are using. Case in point, when I recently asked for help with a problem in which "inline expressions" were not resolving, a couple people offered bogus advice, one person suggested an alternative (thanks), and one person had the answer (thanks VERY much). I asked him where I could find this information that he had shared with me. No idea. I can't find any mention on MSDN or any of my sometimes helpful books. He knew but how? Someone else told him? Oral histories were a great way to pass the time sitting around the fire in the cave but for this? Or maybe he read it in another post or article. Who knows. Everybody who hits that problem is going to suffer through tacking down the resolution or give up and try to come up with a work-around. Is that RAD? Is that a productivity tool?
Maybe you are expectign to much from MSDN (and yes, CP is here to fill the gap :) ) Yes, there are coders cobbling together examples with only partial understanding (and they are often "sucessful"), yes there are many people who give "I tried this once, try it too" advise or simply spread misinformation. Thinking about my own use patterns, you are right in one aspect: MSDN requires quite some navigating. I've never considered that a problem with the offline version but this may be a style. I'v seen many strong and weak spots in MSDN, some stuff is prettxy much useless, and there's tons of space to improve, but in general I'm happy I can check most of the advise I get with MSDN (or similar docs). Compared to the size, the Quality of the docs is amazing. Point for your case: Find the user names that XP lists on the login screen is a pain, you have to dig through the entire Security API it seems. But I consider this time well spent, because I get a "feel" for it's architecture.
Pandoras Gift #44: Hope. The one that keeps you on suffering.
aber.. "Wie gesagt, der Scheiss is' Therapie"
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygen -
Maybe you are expectign to much from MSDN (and yes, CP is here to fill the gap :) ) Yes, there are coders cobbling together examples with only partial understanding (and they are often "sucessful"), yes there are many people who give "I tried this once, try it too" advise or simply spread misinformation. Thinking about my own use patterns, you are right in one aspect: MSDN requires quite some navigating. I've never considered that a problem with the offline version but this may be a style. I'v seen many strong and weak spots in MSDN, some stuff is prettxy much useless, and there's tons of space to improve, but in general I'm happy I can check most of the advise I get with MSDN (or similar docs). Compared to the size, the Quality of the docs is amazing. Point for your case: Find the user names that XP lists on the login screen is a pain, you have to dig through the entire Security API it seems. But I consider this time well spent, because I get a "feel" for it's architecture.
Pandoras Gift #44: Hope. The one that keeps you on suffering.
aber.. "Wie gesagt, der Scheiss is' Therapie"
boost your code || Fold With Us! || sighist | doxygenHey Peter, First, I am very thankful for anyone who takes the time to try and help me out with a problem. (That doesn't apply to the few folks who seem to have a need to post an answer to questions when they have nothing to offer besides a wise @ss remark.) I understand that there is a lot of hearsay knowledge out there and people haven't got the time to verify everything they say before offering it. I take each with a grain of salt and try them all hoping that one will be a solution. Not to beat this thing to death but my problem is not with MSDN itself, although I did refer to it as hyperlink Hell. Every other major software product that I've worked with had a comprehensive library that went with it. My complaint is with Microsoft for failing to put together the kind of comprehensive documentation that, after 24 years in DP (Data Processing) --> IS (Information Systems) --> MIS (Management Information Systems) --> and now IT, I have come to expect of any other major software vendor. I was initially spoiled by IBM which probaly does the best job of anyone. Likewise, Oracle and Informix documentation is excellent. Sun was excellent. Microsoft just doesn't do anything vaguely comparable. And since they have so many excellent models to choose from I don't see any excuse for it.
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Yeah, so basically what you're saying is I'm 5 years out of date. I knew that! But I'm not ashamed. Prior to spending my 4 1/2 years in limbo, I got to do some pretty cool stuff. BTW: Here's another one for you: WYSIWYG! I asked someone if they'd ever heard that term the other day. What a look they gave me. "Huh?! What planet are you from, anyway." I like your ad with the disclaimer. Make the letters big please. But, the tech exec in the big company doesn't need to know Jack Whats-his-name because there are web sites with tech questions for every occasion. Some even supply the answers. I almost went for a 3 month boot camp myself but, for the price I, figured I could do better on my own.
OldDog.Net wrote: I almost went for a 3 month boot camp myself but, for the price I, figured I could do better on my own. Personally, I'm self taught, and I find most of the guys I work with are as well. Saying that there are a few who did computer science as degrees. Meself I did physics, and at the same time always had an interest in programmming since I was a kid. OldDog.Net wrote: WYSIWYG I rememeber that. The holy grail of DTP - another one. We take it all for granted these days.
"Je pense, donc je mange." - Rene Descartes 1689 - Just before his mother put his tea on the table. Shameless Plug - Distributed Database Transactions in .NET using COM+
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There is WAY to much information (and lack there of) in the Microsoft environment that is not available without going spelunking to Hell and back. I've got a library of 17 books just on ADO.Net, ASP.Net, C#, the Framework, DHTML & Javascript. (At about $50 pop (list anyway) and all are about to be obsoleted by .Net 2.) Most of them seem to completely ignore a lot of the more difficult and distasteful issues. IMHO, MSDN is hypertext Hell. They document the crap out of indivdual parameters but never explain how they are meant to be used together. And the circular references, Jeez! The Internet resources, like The Code Project, do a great job of sharing information and techniques but seldom point to any underlying documentation. The search for documentation combined with trial-and-error are HUGELY inefficient time-wise. So, why am I here? Trying to get some skills that'll keep me in pancakes and fuel oil. Damn, I miss IBM and Oracle documentation! Sorry, I just had to vent. ;P Will
If you could speak directly to someone that manages MSDN Online, how would you improve it? Tom Archer - Visual C++ MVP Archer Consulting Group.com