Gas Prices
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I apologize, you are right. Let's keep consuming oil until the last drop. At that point, you will see how useless you car and gas stations are. -------- "I say no to drugs, but they don't listen." - Marilyn Manson
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I have been speaking to your remarks, not "Hey! Let's keep using oil", I've not said that, and I firmly believe that's one of our greatest weaknesses as a country; but again, you're remarks were "by paying a higher gas price, this will force us into some kind of "R&D" mode to find alternative fuel solutions" ... you're "basking" in this odd "glory" of higher gas prices thinking "that'll teach them!" ... now maybe something will be done about it, and you're expecting the government to take care of it all ... and that's a terrible approach because all that does is crush the low to middle income families while we have to wait for something to be done; and what the hell does the government know about alternative fuel sources anyway? They're not the ones in the business of fuel and automobiles ... Perhaps a more logical approach: 1). Regulation of gas prices to get this madness under control; for the world's sake not just the United States. This has been needed for a long, long time, but this needs to be something that all nations ask for ... 2). The oil production companies, that are making billions, need to be pressured by the WORLD to come up with an alternative fuel source, since the United States is NOT the only country in the world using oil, nor are we the largest consumer anymore; China took that lead my last check. Although one would think since oil will run out, as you so kindly pointed out, that they would be doing this; they aren't - let's take that up with them, shall we? 3). Finally, The Auto Industry which, by the way, has almost entirely been outsourced to other countries from the United States, need to be pressured by the WORLD to develop an alternative fuel driven car. Again, the United States is not the only country on this planet buying cars and using cars; but everyone sure likes to believe we are. That's a plan - not - HA! I love high gas prices because now, I HOPE, it will force the United States to find another fuel source; that'll teach them! I'm admitting that I do not have the time, because I work a full-time job and have a family, nor do I have the money, because I have a family and have bills (medical, fuel, house payment, fuel efficient car payment) that I must handle - so it's up to you, people with that "disposable income", to fund the R&D that will find that alternative fuel source ... and I'd much rather you "throw" your money towards that end, then towards $4/gal fuel prices. But if you're paying that higher price too, how is that going to help you and us? Again
actually douglas the way that "us the people" effect change isnt to write letters to congressmen and women its to vote the idiots out of power who think the current policies are a good idea ... "oil is running out ... lets drill in the arctic refuge" ... the people who voted for them now pay the price and unfortunately so do the rest of us ... come the day those nimrods get voted out and we elect someone who actually gives a damn about the environment for more reasons than a balance sheet we might actually get somewhere
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I have been speaking to your remarks, not "Hey! Let's keep using oil", I've not said that, and I firmly believe that's one of our greatest weaknesses as a country; but again, you're remarks were "by paying a higher gas price, this will force us into some kind of "R&D" mode to find alternative fuel solutions" ... you're "basking" in this odd "glory" of higher gas prices thinking "that'll teach them!" ... now maybe something will be done about it, and you're expecting the government to take care of it all ... and that's a terrible approach because all that does is crush the low to middle income families while we have to wait for something to be done; and what the hell does the government know about alternative fuel sources anyway? They're not the ones in the business of fuel and automobiles ... Perhaps a more logical approach: 1). Regulation of gas prices to get this madness under control; for the world's sake not just the United States. This has been needed for a long, long time, but this needs to be something that all nations ask for ... 2). The oil production companies, that are making billions, need to be pressured by the WORLD to come up with an alternative fuel source, since the United States is NOT the only country in the world using oil, nor are we the largest consumer anymore; China took that lead my last check. Although one would think since oil will run out, as you so kindly pointed out, that they would be doing this; they aren't - let's take that up with them, shall we? 3). Finally, The Auto Industry which, by the way, has almost entirely been outsourced to other countries from the United States, need to be pressured by the WORLD to develop an alternative fuel driven car. Again, the United States is not the only country on this planet buying cars and using cars; but everyone sure likes to believe we are. That's a plan - not - HA! I love high gas prices because now, I HOPE, it will force the United States to find another fuel source; that'll teach them! I'm admitting that I do not have the time, because I work a full-time job and have a family, nor do I have the money, because I have a family and have bills (medical, fuel, house payment, fuel efficient car payment) that I must handle - so it's up to you, people with that "disposable income", to fund the R&D that will find that alternative fuel source ... and I'd much rather you "throw" your money towards that end, then towards $4/gal fuel prices. But if you're paying that higher price too, how is that going to help you and us? Again
errr douglas i dont like to rain on ur parade but the us consumes 4 times as much oil as china http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922041.html[^]
"there is no spoon"
biz stuff about me -- modified at 14:54 Wednesday 31st August, 2005 -
That's dollars per gallon, I presume? Have you ever been to the UK? We're currently paying upwards of 90 pence per litre for our petrol That works out at $1.62 / litre which is $6.13 per gallon So stop complaining ;P (Most of the cost of petrol for us goes in Tax, btw) -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit! Buzzwords!
benjymous wrote: Have you ever been to the UK? We're currently paying upwards of 90 pence per litre for our petrol That works out at $1.62 / litre which is $6.13 per gallon Here in Finland we have same prices. About $1,43 - $1,83 / litre ($5,41-6,92 / gallon). Average family have one car and maybe half of work/school travelling is done by bus or bicycle.
This is the internet, where the men are men, the women are men and kids are the FBI.
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actually douglas the way that "us the people" effect change isnt to write letters to congressmen and women its to vote the idiots out of power who think the current policies are a good idea ... "oil is running out ... lets drill in the arctic refuge" ... the people who voted for them now pay the price and unfortunately so do the rest of us ... come the day those nimrods get voted out and we elect someone who actually gives a damn about the environment for more reasons than a balance sheet we might actually get somewhere
I totally agree with your statement; and those in power at this moment were NOT the persons I elected to be there! Nor the time before that ... So I am doing what I can, by writting to these individuals can put things into perspective for them ... Being slient on the matter will get us nowhere.
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
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I'm curious to know what the average daily commute for people in the UK is. I'm about 20 minutes from my office, but I know many people that drive at least an hour +/- (45miles + city congestion) one way every day.
Found on Bash.org [erno] hm. I've lost a machine.. literally _lost_. it responds to ping, it works completely, I just can't figure out where in my apartment it is.
I take the train (about an hour door-to-door), however if I were to take the car it would take about 90 minutes each way due to the time of day. I could make the same journey, say about 8 in the evening, in half the time.
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Absolutely. I just purchased a 2003 Honda Civic LX. I get anywhere from 38 to 44 MPG depending on if I run the AC or not. Usually don't though, I prefer the window.
Found on Bash.org [erno] hm. I've lost a machine.. literally _lost_. it responds to ping, it works completely, I just can't figure out where in my apartment it is.
Steve McLenithan wrote: I get anywhere from 38 to 44 MPG depending on if I run the AC or not. Usually don't though, I prefer the window. Do you know that at speeds of above 40-45mph the turbulent air-flow and resulting drag caused by open windows costs you more in gas than the air-conditioner would. The AC lowers fuel economy by about a constant 10% at all speeds but turbulent drag from open windows at 55mph decreases fuel economy by 20% or more... http://www.sae.org/events/aars/presentations/2004-hill.pdf[^] Steve T -- modified at 15:17 Wednesday 31st August, 2005
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Steve McLenithan wrote: I get anywhere from 38 to 44 MPG depending on if I run the AC or not. Usually don't though, I prefer the window. Do you know that at speeds of above 40-45mph the turbulent air-flow and resulting drag caused by open windows costs you more in gas than the air-conditioner would. The AC lowers fuel economy by about a constant 10% at all speeds but turbulent drag from open windows at 55mph decreases fuel economy by 20% or more... http://www.sae.org/events/aars/presentations/2004-hill.pdf[^] Steve T -- modified at 15:17 Wednesday 31st August, 2005
Damnit. Ok I'll use AC then :P
Found on Bash.org [erno] hm. I've lost a machine.. literally _lost_. it responds to ping, it works completely, I just can't figure out where in my apartment it is.
-- modified at 16:03 Wednesday 31st August, 2005
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errr douglas i dont like to rain on ur parade but the us consumes 4 times as much oil as china http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922041.html[^]
"there is no spoon"
biz stuff about me -- modified at 14:54 Wednesday 31st August, 2005Thank you for correcting me on that point; I had just read a story contrary to this information you just provided (I am going to have to locate that now, because I want to see where their information was pulled from). However I stand by my comments that this isn't a United States only problem - this is a world problem - and one that must be addressed by all of us. My contention is that paying a higher price for gas, isn't going to keep people from driving, nor is it going to force the R&D into alternative fuel sources. Yes - it might get more people to write someone, as I have done, but the more likely result will be people cutting back on entertainment stuffs. People still have to drive to work, to the store for food ... oh yes, there will be some cut back and people may not drive to the park or the movies, but what is that going to do? Not enough. If we're all dumping our money into fuel costs, there will be none left to fund the R&D that everyone wants, to find the real solutions; and it's not going to happen overnight. Good Example: my wife and I just discussed having to drop all the contributions we make to organizations like the Save the Children Foundation because the added expense of gas now prevent us from making those donations. And how, pray tell, is that going to help? Yes - I believe the auto industry should have provided these solutions decades ago when we had a fuel shortage before. It disgusts me that they didn't and haven't. Yes - I would love to see the government step up and put the pressure on the industry to resolve these issues; but our government can barely run itself, let alone figure out how to resolve this issue. But NO - Paying higher gas prices is only going to crush the low and middle income families and when the U.S. economy falters the world economy will too; again, how will this help? They say that necessity is the mother of invention. This is true. But one cannot invent if one does not have the money to do so. Fine. I'll pay the higher gas price; I don't have a choice. Even if they release an alternative fuel and a car that runs on it tomorrow, I will not be able to afford to buy it, because I've spent all my wood-be savings on that higher gas price. And look at Michel's fuel costs (what did he say? $6/gal) - so where are all the 100 mile-to-the-gallon cars in Canada? Why haven't THEY come up with a solution to this? I mean, if a higher gas price is what's going to drive that R&D ... why hasn't Canada already done it??? I understand the
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Thank you for correcting me on that point; I had just read a story contrary to this information you just provided (I am going to have to locate that now, because I want to see where their information was pulled from). However I stand by my comments that this isn't a United States only problem - this is a world problem - and one that must be addressed by all of us. My contention is that paying a higher price for gas, isn't going to keep people from driving, nor is it going to force the R&D into alternative fuel sources. Yes - it might get more people to write someone, as I have done, but the more likely result will be people cutting back on entertainment stuffs. People still have to drive to work, to the store for food ... oh yes, there will be some cut back and people may not drive to the park or the movies, but what is that going to do? Not enough. If we're all dumping our money into fuel costs, there will be none left to fund the R&D that everyone wants, to find the real solutions; and it's not going to happen overnight. Good Example: my wife and I just discussed having to drop all the contributions we make to organizations like the Save the Children Foundation because the added expense of gas now prevent us from making those donations. And how, pray tell, is that going to help? Yes - I believe the auto industry should have provided these solutions decades ago when we had a fuel shortage before. It disgusts me that they didn't and haven't. Yes - I would love to see the government step up and put the pressure on the industry to resolve these issues; but our government can barely run itself, let alone figure out how to resolve this issue. But NO - Paying higher gas prices is only going to crush the low and middle income families and when the U.S. economy falters the world economy will too; again, how will this help? They say that necessity is the mother of invention. This is true. But one cannot invent if one does not have the money to do so. Fine. I'll pay the higher gas price; I don't have a choice. Even if they release an alternative fuel and a car that runs on it tomorrow, I will not be able to afford to buy it, because I've spent all my wood-be savings on that higher gas price. And look at Michel's fuel costs (what did he say? $6/gal) - so where are all the 100 mile-to-the-gallon cars in Canada? Why haven't THEY come up with a solution to this? I mean, if a higher gas price is what's going to drive that R&D ... why hasn't Canada already done it??? I understand the
1. there are no 100mpg cars because the car corporations are global and dont give a crap about fuel efficiency 2. the pain being felt by the low and middle income people will make them vote for someone else next time they get a chance ... it seems we are all pavlovs dogs after all 3. the us is the biggest consumer of oil and has been since year dot ... if they dont set an example why should other countries do what we say but not what we do? 4. the us has the largest number of gas guzzling suv's on the planet bar none 5. the current administration is so in bed with big oil that it defies belief 6. higher gas prices do make people drive less... car pool more ... cut down on needless driving 7. the us cant stop buying goods from overseas now as it has already decimated its own industrial manufacturing base with all the out-sourcing the mother of all screw ups is coming home to roost and there is no escape period
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yes you can - we have differences of opinion and different solutions and the only way this is going to be resovled is to fight about it and figure it out ... My current path is: 1. Drive a fuel efficent car (one that I could afford) 2. We don't go anywhere unless we have a NEED to ... 3. Write to congress 4. Write to the auto industry 5. Write to the gas companies and I used to donate to organzations that help (but as I mentioned in a previous post, because of the costs of gas, that has to stop now) What do you do?
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
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yes you can - we have differences of opinion and different solutions and the only way this is going to be resovled is to fight about it and figure it out ... My current path is: 1. Drive a fuel efficent car (one that I could afford) 2. We don't go anywhere unless we have a NEED to ... 3. Write to congress 4. Write to the auto industry 5. Write to the gas companies and I used to donate to organzations that help (but as I mentioned in a previous post, because of the costs of gas, that has to stop now) What do you do?
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Fold with us|Development Blogging|viksoe.dk's site -
1. there are no 100mpg cars because the car corporations are global and dont give a crap about fuel efficiency 2. the pain being felt by the low and middle income people will make them vote for someone else next time they get a chance ... it seems we are all pavlovs dogs after all 3. the us is the biggest consumer of oil and has been since year dot ... if they dont set an example why should other countries do what we say but not what we do? 4. the us has the largest number of gas guzzling suv's on the planet bar none 5. the current administration is so in bed with big oil that it defies belief 6. higher gas prices do make people drive less... car pool more ... cut down on needless driving 7. the us cant stop buying goods from overseas now as it has already decimated its own industrial manufacturing base with all the out-sourcing the mother of all screw ups is coming home to roost and there is no escape period
Ah, yes, we see more "eye-to-eye" than you know ... and I understand all this ... but until people (like you and I) start actually writting and complaining ... it's not going to happen. The low and middle income people will HAVE to vote for someone else this next term, as you know (thank God); but don't count on them making the right choices ... hell ... I was in total shock when they made the same stupid @$$ mistake twice in a row. But again, the people that voted that direction aren't obviously too bright, that increased gas price isn't going to have such a great affect; but you and I will suffer. I do want to comment on some things you said: l a u r e n wrote: the us is the biggest consumer of oil and has been since year dot ... if they dont set an example why should other countries do what we say but not what we do? Because we're not the "Mommy or Daddy" of the world; even though we've been likened to the "world police". We're not the only people on the planet - Yes I believe we should set an example ... but come on ... do others really sit around and wait for us to do that? That's just as bad; if not worse. l a u r e n wrote: the current administration is so in bed with big oil that it defies belief Which is exactly why I say that a higher gas price isn't going to "force R&D of alternative fuel sources" ... they're the ones making money off it all. That goes back to my "We the people" must make this happen ... l a u r e n wrote: higher gas prices do make people drive less... car pool more ... cut down on needless driving Don't know about you - but people were already doing that when gas hit $1.50 gal. Maybe if we didn't have a "war machine" going full tilt in Iraq (Lord only knows how much fuel that burns) our demand wouldn't be so far out of wack right now. l a u r e n wrote: the us cant stop buying goods from overseas now as it has already decimated its own industrial manufacturing base with all the out-sourcing Yes, I know; however, if people cut back enough on spending - those countries are going to suffer too. And since most are already "3rd world" ... they'll suffer more than we ...
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
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I wish I could make that same choice, but I have to have a certain income level that I must maintain just to support my family, and I've been unable to find work that pays and provides what I need anywhere near where I live ... and i have to live as far out as I do, so I can afford the house I have (which isn't much) ... but then I have to have that fuel burning car to drive that 25 miles to get to the job I need just to exist ... If I could quit tomorrow and earn enough to get good medical coverage and pay my expenses, and that meant giving up my car ... I wouldn't think twice about it. Most people wouldn't ... but that's not realistic for most people. So I have to try to work with the "system" that's inplace, regardless of how suck it is.
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
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Ah, yes, we see more "eye-to-eye" than you know ... and I understand all this ... but until people (like you and I) start actually writting and complaining ... it's not going to happen. The low and middle income people will HAVE to vote for someone else this next term, as you know (thank God); but don't count on them making the right choices ... hell ... I was in total shock when they made the same stupid @$$ mistake twice in a row. But again, the people that voted that direction aren't obviously too bright, that increased gas price isn't going to have such a great affect; but you and I will suffer. I do want to comment on some things you said: l a u r e n wrote: the us is the biggest consumer of oil and has been since year dot ... if they dont set an example why should other countries do what we say but not what we do? Because we're not the "Mommy or Daddy" of the world; even though we've been likened to the "world police". We're not the only people on the planet - Yes I believe we should set an example ... but come on ... do others really sit around and wait for us to do that? That's just as bad; if not worse. l a u r e n wrote: the current administration is so in bed with big oil that it defies belief Which is exactly why I say that a higher gas price isn't going to "force R&D of alternative fuel sources" ... they're the ones making money off it all. That goes back to my "We the people" must make this happen ... l a u r e n wrote: higher gas prices do make people drive less... car pool more ... cut down on needless driving Don't know about you - but people were already doing that when gas hit $1.50 gal. Maybe if we didn't have a "war machine" going full tilt in Iraq (Lord only knows how much fuel that burns) our demand wouldn't be so far out of wack right now. l a u r e n wrote: the us cant stop buying goods from overseas now as it has already decimated its own industrial manufacturing base with all the out-sourcing Yes, I know; however, if people cut back enough on spending - those countries are going to suffer too. And since most are already "3rd world" ... they'll suffer more than we ...
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Fold with us|1. the government is supposed to be "by the people for the people" not "by the lobbyists for the corporations" 2. the us does put itself up as mommy and daddy of the world by trying to lay its moral religious BS on the rest of us all the time 3. i didnt mention the war 4. the "3rd world countries" arent going to suffer anymore... when u have nothing u cant lose anything more
"there is no spoon"
biz stuff about me -- modified at 16:26 Wednesday 31st August, 2005 -
I wish I could make that same choice, but I have to have a certain income level that I must maintain just to support my family, and I've been unable to find work that pays and provides what I need anywhere near where I live ... and i have to live as far out as I do, so I can afford the house I have (which isn't much) ... but then I have to have that fuel burning car to drive that 25 miles to get to the job I need just to exist ... If I could quit tomorrow and earn enough to get good medical coverage and pay my expenses, and that meant giving up my car ... I wouldn't think twice about it. Most people wouldn't ... but that's not realistic for most people. So I have to try to work with the "system" that's inplace, regardless of how suck it is.
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Fold with us|Development Blogging|viksoe.dk's site -
1. there are no 100mpg cars because the car corporations are global and dont give a crap about fuel efficiency 2. the pain being felt by the low and middle income people will make them vote for someone else next time they get a chance ... it seems we are all pavlovs dogs after all 3. the us is the biggest consumer of oil and has been since year dot ... if they dont set an example why should other countries do what we say but not what we do? 4. the us has the largest number of gas guzzling suv's on the planet bar none 5. the current administration is so in bed with big oil that it defies belief 6. higher gas prices do make people drive less... car pool more ... cut down on needless driving 7. the us cant stop buying goods from overseas now as it has already decimated its own industrial manufacturing base with all the out-sourcing the mother of all screw ups is coming home to roost and there is no escape period
l a u r e n wrote: 1. there are no 100mpg cars because the car corporations are global and dont give a crap about fuel efficiency Car corporations don't give a crap about producing vehicles that have no market. Fuel efficient vehicles have been around for a while, but nobody buys them, so there is never an incentive to the car manufactures to make a ton of them and get an economy of scale. l a u r e n wrote: 2. the pain being felt by the low and middle income people will make them vote for someone else next time they get a chance ... it seems we are all pavlovs dogs after all Why does everyone in this thread believe that electing the "right" people or letter writing campaigns will effect change? Vote with your money. Money talks. As gas prices surge several things will happen: 1) More people will abandon SUVs for more fuel efficient cars 2) The social stigma of having a small fuel efficient cars will decrease 3) As demand rises, car companies will produce more vehicles to compete against each other and the prices for them will drop. I guarantee all of the major manufacturers have their engineers working overtime on this, since consumers are starting to realize that current prices aren't a temporary spike, but the natural position of the price of oil as demand bashes up against a limited supply. The greed of the car companies as they attempt to fill this market will solve the energy crisis, as long as consumers buy the highly efficient cars. If people hold their breath, and reallocate their spending and keep rewarding the car companies making big, heavy SUVs, then the efficient cars will not appear. Either way, it's economic democracy at its finest. Sean
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Yes, I know ... I was just stating I wish I could make that same choice. Driving an hour (sometimes two) just to get to work is a harsh reality.
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Fold with us|Development Blogging|viksoe.dk's site -
l a u r e n wrote: 1. there are no 100mpg cars because the car corporations are global and dont give a crap about fuel efficiency Car corporations don't give a crap about producing vehicles that have no market. Fuel efficient vehicles have been around for a while, but nobody buys them, so there is never an incentive to the car manufactures to make a ton of them and get an economy of scale. l a u r e n wrote: 2. the pain being felt by the low and middle income people will make them vote for someone else next time they get a chance ... it seems we are all pavlovs dogs after all Why does everyone in this thread believe that electing the "right" people or letter writing campaigns will effect change? Vote with your money. Money talks. As gas prices surge several things will happen: 1) More people will abandon SUVs for more fuel efficient cars 2) The social stigma of having a small fuel efficient cars will decrease 3) As demand rises, car companies will produce more vehicles to compete against each other and the prices for them will drop. I guarantee all of the major manufacturers have their engineers working overtime on this, since consumers are starting to realize that current prices aren't a temporary spike, but the natural position of the price of oil as demand bashes up against a limited supply. The greed of the car companies as they attempt to fill this market will solve the energy crisis, as long as consumers buy the highly efficient cars. If people hold their breath, and reallocate their spending and keep rewarding the car companies making big, heavy SUVs, then the efficient cars will not appear. Either way, it's economic democracy at its finest. Sean
1. "electing the right people" as u put it means the government makes policies that encourage sensible things ... unlike gw dipsh*t who encourages corporate greed and lack of responsibility 2. those "right people" would give tax breaks (for example) to people who drove efficient cars so more people would buy 3. the abandonment of suv's will be for as long as gas prices stay high ... as soon as they came down people would go back to their old ways unless those "right people" made it painful to do so so thats why it matters who we elect
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1. "electing the right people" as u put it means the government makes policies that encourage sensible things ... unlike gw dipsh*t who encourages corporate greed and lack of responsibility 2. those "right people" would give tax breaks (for example) to people who drove efficient cars so more people would buy 3. the abandonment of suv's will be for as long as gas prices stay high ... as soon as they came down people would go back to their old ways unless those "right people" made it painful to do so so thats why it matters who we elect
l a u r e n wrote: 2. those "right people" would give tax breaks (for example) to people who drove efficient cars so more people would buy Right, but you're paying for those tax breaks. Tax break money doesn't just show up, you pay for it with your income tax. At least if you buy a fuel efficient car (or choose not to and buy an SUV) you're making a decision about how to spend your money, and rewarding the behaviour of corporations directly. l a u r e n wrote: 3. the abandonment of suv's will be for as long as gas prices stay high ... as soon as they came down people would go back to their old ways unless those "right people" made it painful to do so You're absolutely right. The funny thing (from my point of view) is that there is nothing wrong with this. I resent your belief that you know how to spend my money better than I do. Don't presume to sit in a position of moral superiority to people who choose to spend their money on gas rather than something else you would rather have them spend it on. Their choice. I don't see that removing choice from people's lives with "pain" would result in a better world. More totalitarian? Yes. Better? Probably not. Sean