Gas Prices
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Thank you for correcting me on that point; I had just read a story contrary to this information you just provided (I am going to have to locate that now, because I want to see where their information was pulled from). However I stand by my comments that this isn't a United States only problem - this is a world problem - and one that must be addressed by all of us. My contention is that paying a higher price for gas, isn't going to keep people from driving, nor is it going to force the R&D into alternative fuel sources. Yes - it might get more people to write someone, as I have done, but the more likely result will be people cutting back on entertainment stuffs. People still have to drive to work, to the store for food ... oh yes, there will be some cut back and people may not drive to the park or the movies, but what is that going to do? Not enough. If we're all dumping our money into fuel costs, there will be none left to fund the R&D that everyone wants, to find the real solutions; and it's not going to happen overnight. Good Example: my wife and I just discussed having to drop all the contributions we make to organizations like the Save the Children Foundation because the added expense of gas now prevent us from making those donations. And how, pray tell, is that going to help? Yes - I believe the auto industry should have provided these solutions decades ago when we had a fuel shortage before. It disgusts me that they didn't and haven't. Yes - I would love to see the government step up and put the pressure on the industry to resolve these issues; but our government can barely run itself, let alone figure out how to resolve this issue. But NO - Paying higher gas prices is only going to crush the low and middle income families and when the U.S. economy falters the world economy will too; again, how will this help? They say that necessity is the mother of invention. This is true. But one cannot invent if one does not have the money to do so. Fine. I'll pay the higher gas price; I don't have a choice. Even if they release an alternative fuel and a car that runs on it tomorrow, I will not be able to afford to buy it, because I've spent all my wood-be savings on that higher gas price. And look at Michel's fuel costs (what did he say? $6/gal) - so where are all the 100 mile-to-the-gallon cars in Canada? Why haven't THEY come up with a solution to this? I mean, if a higher gas price is what's going to drive that R&D ... why hasn't Canada already done it??? I understand the
1. there are no 100mpg cars because the car corporations are global and dont give a crap about fuel efficiency 2. the pain being felt by the low and middle income people will make them vote for someone else next time they get a chance ... it seems we are all pavlovs dogs after all 3. the us is the biggest consumer of oil and has been since year dot ... if they dont set an example why should other countries do what we say but not what we do? 4. the us has the largest number of gas guzzling suv's on the planet bar none 5. the current administration is so in bed with big oil that it defies belief 6. higher gas prices do make people drive less... car pool more ... cut down on needless driving 7. the us cant stop buying goods from overseas now as it has already decimated its own industrial manufacturing base with all the out-sourcing the mother of all screw ups is coming home to roost and there is no escape period
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yes you can - we have differences of opinion and different solutions and the only way this is going to be resovled is to fight about it and figure it out ... My current path is: 1. Drive a fuel efficent car (one that I could afford) 2. We don't go anywhere unless we have a NEED to ... 3. Write to congress 4. Write to the auto industry 5. Write to the gas companies and I used to donate to organzations that help (but as I mentioned in a previous post, because of the costs of gas, that has to stop now) What do you do?
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Fold with us|Development Blogging|viksoe.dk's site -
yes you can - we have differences of opinion and different solutions and the only way this is going to be resovled is to fight about it and figure it out ... My current path is: 1. Drive a fuel efficent car (one that I could afford) 2. We don't go anywhere unless we have a NEED to ... 3. Write to congress 4. Write to the auto industry 5. Write to the gas companies and I used to donate to organzations that help (but as I mentioned in a previous post, because of the costs of gas, that has to stop now) What do you do?
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Fold with us|Development Blogging|viksoe.dk's site -
1. there are no 100mpg cars because the car corporations are global and dont give a crap about fuel efficiency 2. the pain being felt by the low and middle income people will make them vote for someone else next time they get a chance ... it seems we are all pavlovs dogs after all 3. the us is the biggest consumer of oil and has been since year dot ... if they dont set an example why should other countries do what we say but not what we do? 4. the us has the largest number of gas guzzling suv's on the planet bar none 5. the current administration is so in bed with big oil that it defies belief 6. higher gas prices do make people drive less... car pool more ... cut down on needless driving 7. the us cant stop buying goods from overseas now as it has already decimated its own industrial manufacturing base with all the out-sourcing the mother of all screw ups is coming home to roost and there is no escape period
Ah, yes, we see more "eye-to-eye" than you know ... and I understand all this ... but until people (like you and I) start actually writting and complaining ... it's not going to happen. The low and middle income people will HAVE to vote for someone else this next term, as you know (thank God); but don't count on them making the right choices ... hell ... I was in total shock when they made the same stupid @$$ mistake twice in a row. But again, the people that voted that direction aren't obviously too bright, that increased gas price isn't going to have such a great affect; but you and I will suffer. I do want to comment on some things you said: l a u r e n wrote: the us is the biggest consumer of oil and has been since year dot ... if they dont set an example why should other countries do what we say but not what we do? Because we're not the "Mommy or Daddy" of the world; even though we've been likened to the "world police". We're not the only people on the planet - Yes I believe we should set an example ... but come on ... do others really sit around and wait for us to do that? That's just as bad; if not worse. l a u r e n wrote: the current administration is so in bed with big oil that it defies belief Which is exactly why I say that a higher gas price isn't going to "force R&D of alternative fuel sources" ... they're the ones making money off it all. That goes back to my "We the people" must make this happen ... l a u r e n wrote: higher gas prices do make people drive less... car pool more ... cut down on needless driving Don't know about you - but people were already doing that when gas hit $1.50 gal. Maybe if we didn't have a "war machine" going full tilt in Iraq (Lord only knows how much fuel that burns) our demand wouldn't be so far out of wack right now. l a u r e n wrote: the us cant stop buying goods from overseas now as it has already decimated its own industrial manufacturing base with all the out-sourcing Yes, I know; however, if people cut back enough on spending - those countries are going to suffer too. And since most are already "3rd world" ... they'll suffer more than we ...
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Fold with us| -
I wish I could make that same choice, but I have to have a certain income level that I must maintain just to support my family, and I've been unable to find work that pays and provides what I need anywhere near where I live ... and i have to live as far out as I do, so I can afford the house I have (which isn't much) ... but then I have to have that fuel burning car to drive that 25 miles to get to the job I need just to exist ... If I could quit tomorrow and earn enough to get good medical coverage and pay my expenses, and that meant giving up my car ... I wouldn't think twice about it. Most people wouldn't ... but that's not realistic for most people. So I have to try to work with the "system" that's inplace, regardless of how suck it is.
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Fold with us|Development Blogging|viksoe.dk's site -
Ah, yes, we see more "eye-to-eye" than you know ... and I understand all this ... but until people (like you and I) start actually writting and complaining ... it's not going to happen. The low and middle income people will HAVE to vote for someone else this next term, as you know (thank God); but don't count on them making the right choices ... hell ... I was in total shock when they made the same stupid @$$ mistake twice in a row. But again, the people that voted that direction aren't obviously too bright, that increased gas price isn't going to have such a great affect; but you and I will suffer. I do want to comment on some things you said: l a u r e n wrote: the us is the biggest consumer of oil and has been since year dot ... if they dont set an example why should other countries do what we say but not what we do? Because we're not the "Mommy or Daddy" of the world; even though we've been likened to the "world police". We're not the only people on the planet - Yes I believe we should set an example ... but come on ... do others really sit around and wait for us to do that? That's just as bad; if not worse. l a u r e n wrote: the current administration is so in bed with big oil that it defies belief Which is exactly why I say that a higher gas price isn't going to "force R&D of alternative fuel sources" ... they're the ones making money off it all. That goes back to my "We the people" must make this happen ... l a u r e n wrote: higher gas prices do make people drive less... car pool more ... cut down on needless driving Don't know about you - but people were already doing that when gas hit $1.50 gal. Maybe if we didn't have a "war machine" going full tilt in Iraq (Lord only knows how much fuel that burns) our demand wouldn't be so far out of wack right now. l a u r e n wrote: the us cant stop buying goods from overseas now as it has already decimated its own industrial manufacturing base with all the out-sourcing Yes, I know; however, if people cut back enough on spending - those countries are going to suffer too. And since most are already "3rd world" ... they'll suffer more than we ...
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Fold with us|1. the government is supposed to be "by the people for the people" not "by the lobbyists for the corporations" 2. the us does put itself up as mommy and daddy of the world by trying to lay its moral religious BS on the rest of us all the time 3. i didnt mention the war 4. the "3rd world countries" arent going to suffer anymore... when u have nothing u cant lose anything more
"there is no spoon"
biz stuff about me -- modified at 16:26 Wednesday 31st August, 2005 -
I wish I could make that same choice, but I have to have a certain income level that I must maintain just to support my family, and I've been unable to find work that pays and provides what I need anywhere near where I live ... and i have to live as far out as I do, so I can afford the house I have (which isn't much) ... but then I have to have that fuel burning car to drive that 25 miles to get to the job I need just to exist ... If I could quit tomorrow and earn enough to get good medical coverage and pay my expenses, and that meant giving up my car ... I wouldn't think twice about it. Most people wouldn't ... but that's not realistic for most people. So I have to try to work with the "system" that's inplace, regardless of how suck it is.
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Fold with us|Development Blogging|viksoe.dk's site -
1. there are no 100mpg cars because the car corporations are global and dont give a crap about fuel efficiency 2. the pain being felt by the low and middle income people will make them vote for someone else next time they get a chance ... it seems we are all pavlovs dogs after all 3. the us is the biggest consumer of oil and has been since year dot ... if they dont set an example why should other countries do what we say but not what we do? 4. the us has the largest number of gas guzzling suv's on the planet bar none 5. the current administration is so in bed with big oil that it defies belief 6. higher gas prices do make people drive less... car pool more ... cut down on needless driving 7. the us cant stop buying goods from overseas now as it has already decimated its own industrial manufacturing base with all the out-sourcing the mother of all screw ups is coming home to roost and there is no escape period
l a u r e n wrote: 1. there are no 100mpg cars because the car corporations are global and dont give a crap about fuel efficiency Car corporations don't give a crap about producing vehicles that have no market. Fuel efficient vehicles have been around for a while, but nobody buys them, so there is never an incentive to the car manufactures to make a ton of them and get an economy of scale. l a u r e n wrote: 2. the pain being felt by the low and middle income people will make them vote for someone else next time they get a chance ... it seems we are all pavlovs dogs after all Why does everyone in this thread believe that electing the "right" people or letter writing campaigns will effect change? Vote with your money. Money talks. As gas prices surge several things will happen: 1) More people will abandon SUVs for more fuel efficient cars 2) The social stigma of having a small fuel efficient cars will decrease 3) As demand rises, car companies will produce more vehicles to compete against each other and the prices for them will drop. I guarantee all of the major manufacturers have their engineers working overtime on this, since consumers are starting to realize that current prices aren't a temporary spike, but the natural position of the price of oil as demand bashes up against a limited supply. The greed of the car companies as they attempt to fill this market will solve the energy crisis, as long as consumers buy the highly efficient cars. If people hold their breath, and reallocate their spending and keep rewarding the car companies making big, heavy SUVs, then the efficient cars will not appear. Either way, it's economic democracy at its finest. Sean
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Yes, I know ... I was just stating I wish I could make that same choice. Driving an hour (sometimes two) just to get to work is a harsh reality.
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Fold with us|Development Blogging|viksoe.dk's site -
l a u r e n wrote: 1. there are no 100mpg cars because the car corporations are global and dont give a crap about fuel efficiency Car corporations don't give a crap about producing vehicles that have no market. Fuel efficient vehicles have been around for a while, but nobody buys them, so there is never an incentive to the car manufactures to make a ton of them and get an economy of scale. l a u r e n wrote: 2. the pain being felt by the low and middle income people will make them vote for someone else next time they get a chance ... it seems we are all pavlovs dogs after all Why does everyone in this thread believe that electing the "right" people or letter writing campaigns will effect change? Vote with your money. Money talks. As gas prices surge several things will happen: 1) More people will abandon SUVs for more fuel efficient cars 2) The social stigma of having a small fuel efficient cars will decrease 3) As demand rises, car companies will produce more vehicles to compete against each other and the prices for them will drop. I guarantee all of the major manufacturers have their engineers working overtime on this, since consumers are starting to realize that current prices aren't a temporary spike, but the natural position of the price of oil as demand bashes up against a limited supply. The greed of the car companies as they attempt to fill this market will solve the energy crisis, as long as consumers buy the highly efficient cars. If people hold their breath, and reallocate their spending and keep rewarding the car companies making big, heavy SUVs, then the efficient cars will not appear. Either way, it's economic democracy at its finest. Sean
1. "electing the right people" as u put it means the government makes policies that encourage sensible things ... unlike gw dipsh*t who encourages corporate greed and lack of responsibility 2. those "right people" would give tax breaks (for example) to people who drove efficient cars so more people would buy 3. the abandonment of suv's will be for as long as gas prices stay high ... as soon as they came down people would go back to their old ways unless those "right people" made it painful to do so so thats why it matters who we elect
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1. "electing the right people" as u put it means the government makes policies that encourage sensible things ... unlike gw dipsh*t who encourages corporate greed and lack of responsibility 2. those "right people" would give tax breaks (for example) to people who drove efficient cars so more people would buy 3. the abandonment of suv's will be for as long as gas prices stay high ... as soon as they came down people would go back to their old ways unless those "right people" made it painful to do so so thats why it matters who we elect
l a u r e n wrote: 2. those "right people" would give tax breaks (for example) to people who drove efficient cars so more people would buy Right, but you're paying for those tax breaks. Tax break money doesn't just show up, you pay for it with your income tax. At least if you buy a fuel efficient car (or choose not to and buy an SUV) you're making a decision about how to spend your money, and rewarding the behaviour of corporations directly. l a u r e n wrote: 3. the abandonment of suv's will be for as long as gas prices stay high ... as soon as they came down people would go back to their old ways unless those "right people" made it painful to do so You're absolutely right. The funny thing (from my point of view) is that there is nothing wrong with this. I resent your belief that you know how to spend my money better than I do. Don't presume to sit in a position of moral superiority to people who choose to spend their money on gas rather than something else you would rather have them spend it on. Their choice. I don't see that removing choice from people's lives with "pain" would result in a better world. More totalitarian? Yes. Better? Probably not. Sean
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l a u r e n wrote: 1. there are no 100mpg cars because the car corporations are global and dont give a crap about fuel efficiency Car corporations don't give a crap about producing vehicles that have no market. Fuel efficient vehicles have been around for a while, but nobody buys them, so there is never an incentive to the car manufactures to make a ton of them and get an economy of scale. l a u r e n wrote: 2. the pain being felt by the low and middle income people will make them vote for someone else next time they get a chance ... it seems we are all pavlovs dogs after all Why does everyone in this thread believe that electing the "right" people or letter writing campaigns will effect change? Vote with your money. Money talks. As gas prices surge several things will happen: 1) More people will abandon SUVs for more fuel efficient cars 2) The social stigma of having a small fuel efficient cars will decrease 3) As demand rises, car companies will produce more vehicles to compete against each other and the prices for them will drop. I guarantee all of the major manufacturers have their engineers working overtime on this, since consumers are starting to realize that current prices aren't a temporary spike, but the natural position of the price of oil as demand bashes up against a limited supply. The greed of the car companies as they attempt to fill this market will solve the energy crisis, as long as consumers buy the highly efficient cars. If people hold their breath, and reallocate their spending and keep rewarding the car companies making big, heavy SUVs, then the efficient cars will not appear. Either way, it's economic democracy at its finest. Sean
Sean Michael Murphy wrote: Vote with your money. Money talks. Because by the time I'm done paying for gas at 4/gal. I have no money that "can talk"; so writting letters is my only option ... Sean Michael Murphy wrote: I guarantee all of the major manufacturers have their engineers working overtime on this, I hope you're right, but let's face it, the U.S. has been in a gas crisis before and that didn't yield many fuel efficient cars; not sure what makes you believe that will happen this time. In the mean time, I was just told by my wife that gas is now $3.25/gal, up from $2.46 just this past Saturday and we have a 10 day supply left in the city, because all our oil came from New Orleans, that has now been wiped off the face of the planet ... SO ... anyone care to make donations to me to help me pay for gas for my fuel efficient car??? (gets 26 mpg with no A/C running - which is how I drive) I hear money talks ...
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Fold with us|Development Blogging|viksoe.dk's site -
l a u r e n wrote: 2. those "right people" would give tax breaks (for example) to people who drove efficient cars so more people would buy Right, but you're paying for those tax breaks. Tax break money doesn't just show up, you pay for it with your income tax. At least if you buy a fuel efficient car (or choose not to and buy an SUV) you're making a decision about how to spend your money, and rewarding the behaviour of corporations directly. l a u r e n wrote: 3. the abandonment of suv's will be for as long as gas prices stay high ... as soon as they came down people would go back to their old ways unless those "right people" made it painful to do so You're absolutely right. The funny thing (from my point of view) is that there is nothing wrong with this. I resent your belief that you know how to spend my money better than I do. Don't presume to sit in a position of moral superiority to people who choose to spend their money on gas rather than something else you would rather have them spend it on. Their choice. I don't see that removing choice from people's lives with "pain" would result in a better world. More totalitarian? Yes. Better? Probably not. Sean
so surely if i choose to spend my money on cigarettes and smoke them where i please then thats ok too being as how its my choice no? governments take our money and spend it how they please all the time ... u have no say as to what happens to ur taxes ... once they are paid to the government they cease to be ur money and they are the monies of the population as a whole ... so spending some of them (for example) on tax breaks for people who buy cars that respect the environment seems like a good idea to me
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If you multiply the mileage with the "cleanliness factor", which is better? Good music: In my rosary[^]
Diesel, no question. Modern diesel engines are clean and very efficient, plus they can be run on alternatives to diesel like bio-diesel made from used cooking oil etc. Hybrids are a major pollutant when you factor in the manufacturing of the batteries and ultimate disposal needs for the batteries.
"A preoccupation with the next world pretty clearly signals an inability to cope credibly with this one."
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Steve McLenithan wrote: I get anywhere from 38 to 44 MPG depending on if I run the AC or not. Usually don't though, I prefer the window. Do you know that at speeds of above 40-45mph the turbulent air-flow and resulting drag caused by open windows costs you more in gas than the air-conditioner would. The AC lowers fuel economy by about a constant 10% at all speeds but turbulent drag from open windows at 55mph decreases fuel economy by 20% or more... http://www.sae.org/events/aars/presentations/2004-hill.pdf[^] Steve T -- modified at 15:17 Wednesday 31st August, 2005
Wow, learn something new every day ! especially at CP. I had thought that windows down would have given better fuel economy at low speeds but the AC at higher speeds. Regardz Colin J Davies The most LinkedIn CPian (that I know of anyhow) :-)
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l a u r e n wrote: now the chikens come home to roost Except some see them as ducks instead of chickens and they were all put there by someone else -- they don't see anything for what it is. While I was filling up yesterday, I was listening to a guy in an SUV complain to me about the cost of filling his vehicle and what horrible gas mileage he was getting, and extremely angry at me for having a smaller vehicle. I left as he cussed me out. A short time later on the highway, he passed me at 20 miles over the speed limit, he was doing about 95 in a 75 zone. Absolutely no idea why he is having problems, it's just all someone else's fault. He flipped me off as he passed. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Yeepee!! Go up, go up!! I'm super happy with this petrol price increase. In fact I have some kind of weird and very painfull sickness, akin to an allergy to car pollution. I finally understdood 1 year ago and I'm still adjusting/preparing for a new life in the country. Anyway, I hope this would push faster in the direction of alternative to petrol. Today you could already buy a Toyota prius (which has a lower maintenance BTW), apparently japanese are coming with a few other innovation in the next few years as well. And shame on general motors which has a functional fully electric car of which all users were very happy of, and removed it from its product line!
Don't forget where a majority of the electricity for electric cars comes from; coal power plants. regards, Paul Watson South Africa Colib and WebTwoZero. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
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I'm curious to know what the average daily commute for people in the UK is. I'm about 20 minutes from my office, but I know many people that drive at least an hour +/- (45miles + city congestion) one way every day.
Found on Bash.org [erno] hm. I've lost a machine.. literally _lost_. it responds to ping, it works completely, I just can't figure out where in my apartment it is.
I drive for about 45 minutes to/from the office each day (I chose to live in a small town outside the city as its a far nicer environment) Of course my car does >40 miles to the gallon, so it probably all evens out in the end -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit! Buzzwords!
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so surely if i choose to spend my money on cigarettes and smoke them where i please then thats ok too being as how its my choice no? governments take our money and spend it how they please all the time ... u have no say as to what happens to ur taxes ... once they are paid to the government they cease to be ur money and they are the monies of the population as a whole ... so spending some of them (for example) on tax breaks for people who buy cars that respect the environment seems like a good idea to me
l a u r e n wrote: so surely if i choose to spend my money on cigarettes and smoke them where i please then thats ok too being as how its my choice no? Hmmm, I was all ready to reply that this is obviously a bad analogy; that smoking anywhere you please is a public health issue and is not simply a personal choice (since your dumb choice affects not just you, but also the health of people around you), but then I realized that you could frame the fuel economy issue as a public health issue too. Gas guzzlers pollute more, causing more health issues for everyone, etc. I guess you're right. We should just give all of our money to the government, and let a small council of people who have the good ideas decide how to spend it. We could call the council "The Politburo". Catchy. Poor Ronnie is weeping in his grave. Sean
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Don't forget where a majority of the electricity for electric cars comes from; coal power plants. regards, Paul Watson South Africa Colib and WebTwoZero. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
As far I'm concern I don't care for the following reasons: 1. I'm in pain because of car exhaust polluted air around me, power plant 50km away don't harm me! 2. furthermore energy production by petrol/car based power plant is more efficient that those in car for various reason as well as it is easier to control pollution output.