A Bunch Of Crybabies?
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Yeah. I mean...I'm not going to go installing Office on it. ;P But I can put PuTTY, Subversion, Notepad2, Remote Desktop, the Citrix ICA client (we run Citrix at work...so that's how I'd get to my Office Suite), etc. on the disk and, essentially, I'd have a leaner version of my dev machine that I could actually work on if need be. :)
Picture a huge catholic cathedral. In it there's many people, including a gregorian monk choir. You know, those who sing beautifully. Then they start singing, in latin, as they always do: "Ad hominem..." -Jörgen Sigvardsson
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Anders Molin wrote: Why is it that so many people complain about development/evolution of software? Every time MS comes with something new and fancy people go "I Can not afford to develop stuff like that" or "I don't like it, I'm switching to Linux" The orginal point of this thread has been lost in the continual defense of Linux. That wasn't the point! I happen to enjoy working on Linux but the majority of people are comfortable using Windows. Would switching to Linux in a corporate environment really be cheap? Think about it: retrain ALL your employees. I think Vista has some really cool features in it but the fact that most people are not in a hurry to switch from 2000 or XP proves how good those OS really are! Average users don't care what they use as long as it works and they don't have to learn anything new to do their job. -- modified at 14:05 Friday 16th September, 2005
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Lauren, I've never had a beef with you. I love the fact that you're here and that you seem to attract so much trouble. It was kinda boring when you were gone. ;) However, as far as the whole "copied from..." thing, I'm reminded of the words of Solomon: "There is nothing new under the sun." Yeah, Microsoft's behind the ball on UI, Security, etc. But some of this stuff they're way ahead in. For instance, the Linq Project[^]. Holy crap, it's waaaay cool. I'm at PDC and I've been going to almost every session on Linq that I could go to. I haven't seen this in any other programming langauge out there. Parts of it are in other languages (Lambda expressions, inference typing, and object initializers come to mind), but not all wrapped into this one big langauge integrated data query method that works over any enumerable collection. People here are complaining that the DLinq portion of Linq is just a fancy ORM layer...and that's partially true. So yeah, Microsoft's copying other ORM packages, but Linq and the standard query expressions itself, totally new. Linux is a copy of Unix. Windows is a copy of the MacOS. OpenOffice is a copy of Microsoft Office. Your software is a copy of some other software. There's not a whole lot of new stuff that comes out.
Picture a huge catholic cathedral. In it there's many people, including a gregorian monk choir. You know, those who sing beautifully. Then they start singing, in latin, as they always do: "Ad hominem..." -Jörgen Sigvardsson
u know i have to say that i wished i was back in the 90's when ms really were the company to beat and to work for and to work with ... they really rocked ... they were smart and out-innovated everybody on the planet ... and i made a very nice living programming windows apps with my vs ide ... it was so cool fast forward to 2005 and we have the internet being almost the single most important thing to happen since the personal computer ... we have a host of other ways to write apps and we have a security nightmare because ms didnt design windows for security what do they do? they try to make the web proprietary ... they dont decouple IE from the underlying OS so we still have a security nightmare (please note this is not an IE bash ... its simply saying that any time a browser is plugged straight into the core OS the potential for trouble is an order of magnitude greater) ... and we have customer lock-in and strong arm tactics to keep people from trying alternatives that to me is not the ms of the 90's who rocked so vista has cool stuff in it ... yes i have no doubt it does because ms hires some of the smartest people on the planet ... but to be touting the filling of the huge holes in security as a feature is a bit of a joke ... to be announcing features they arent going to deliver is also a bit sad ... to be spreading FUD as they do is also a bit sad i honestly think ms have become less relevant than they used to be and i can see nothing on their horizon that will change that
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Yeah. I mean...I'm not going to go installing Office on it. ;P But I can put PuTTY, Subversion, Notepad2, Remote Desktop, the Citrix ICA client (we run Citrix at work...so that's how I'd get to my Office Suite), etc. on the disk and, essentially, I'd have a leaner version of my dev machine that I could actually work on if need be. :)
Picture a huge catholic cathedral. In it there's many people, including a gregorian monk choir. You know, those who sing beautifully. Then they start singing, in latin, as they always do: "Ad hominem..." -Jörgen Sigvardsson
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I'll apologize ahead of time that I don't take your exclusively open source, free software view and instead choose to live in the Microsoft camp. Since I know that's going to be what it comes down to: the fact that you and I are in different camps. That being said, I do use free software. I use Apache, Subversion, Mono. I've used PHP, MySQL, etc. Every time a new Fedora release comes out, I download and install it in VMWare. I like paying attention to where "The Other Side" is. See, I agree with this post. But the rest of what you've said is rubbish. In every argument here today, you've ignored the myriad other tremendous advancements that they're making within Vista and instead focusing only on the glitz (Avalon, the Windows Presentation Foundation, the pretty shiny buttons, whatever you want to call it). Judah did a great job of listing off some of the really cool new features in Vista. Among my favorites is the integrated search. They've done away with the search dog...yay, and integrated MSN Desktop Search into the OS. The virtual folders are awesome. I like the Sidebar and the fact that I can pull Gadgets of the Sidebar and onto the Desktop. I like all the core improvments they've made such as the restart manager that further reduces the number of restarts you have to do to install software or updates. I like the fact that startup is faster. I loved the new memory stuff I saw in the keynote here at the PDC. Because I have an uber-powerful laptop, I wouldn't probably use the whole USB Drive == More RAM thing...but it would be nice to use my USB Drive on lesser powered computers when I want to beef them up a bit. When Apple released OSX, did you criticize them for making the OS look nice and shiny? Did you ignore the fact that they released all these cool other features like Spotlight, Dashboard, Expose, Fast User Switching, etc in favor of mocking Quartz and the UI updates? Probably not. And the truth is that, if Gnome was updated to use vector graphics, translucent window borders, new animations for windows and menus, and had a 3D tiled view of all your windows when you hit Alt+Tab, you'd be all for it and you'd be railing on Microsoft for having such an outdated look to their crappy OS. Lauren, you have to remember that Real People (and I mean users) love UI glitz (yeah, even developers). I've showed non-developers all the cool new "real features" in Vista, and the reaction usually is "Oh, that's cool." But as soon as you show them the sidebar or how translucent the borders
Wow - if Microsoft saw this post, they'd want you as an Evangelist I bet :-)
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Ahh... the z80... now you're making me feel old! :cool:
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sstocker wrote: The orginal point of this thread has been lost The thread turned into yet another Windows / Linux debate. X| :zzz: ------------------------------- DEBUGGING : Removing the needles from the haystack.
sfdougl wrote: The thread turned into yet another Windows / Linux debate. And that's really childish. We all know Windows is far better. :-D
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
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Why is it that so many people complain about development/evolution of software? Every time MS comes with something new and fancy people go "I Can not afford to develop stuff like that" or "I don't like it, I'm switching to Linux" So maybe you cannot afford to hire a designer for your application, but should progress stop because of that? Just compare todays 24-bit antialiased icons an fancy XP GUI with Win 3.1. Compare the difference between now and the previews of Vista/Office 12 and the difference is not that big. We have all survived the progress so far and we will continue to do so if we spend our energy on our business instead of complaining... And why is it that every time people see something new which they don't fancy thay say they switch to Linux or something? Please do so, I don't know that many successfull commercial applications for Linux and I don't think we will see many any time soon. Please do realize that MS has a lot of money to use on usability tests and they DO spend loads of money on it. Include that with the fact that most developers don't know anything about usability and designing usefull GUI's and even a kid can figure out who us right when it comes to GUI's: MS or the small developer shop... - Anders
I just love the title of this thread. On of my favorite thread titles in a long time!
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sfdougl wrote: The thread turned into yet another Windows / Linux debate. And that's really childish. We all know Windows is far better. :-D
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
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ok lets compare this to windows 3.1 then shall we? modem drivers ... printer drivers ... video drivers ... sound drivers ... none would work easily then ... and dont get me started on trying to install a video card on my uncles pdp11 ... i couldnt even find the pci slot!! i thought we were talking about modern versions of the operating systems ;)
:wtf: Windows 3.1 was only five years ago? Matt Gerrans
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He was giving hypothetical examples and you know that Lauren, you're not stupid. You shouldn't be so obviously obtuse and difficult. First let me say that I hope linux succeeds. And it does seem like it will. M$ does need the competition to keep them "honest" and "humble." M$ software certainly does have myriads of problems - I should know, I develop software for M$ windows. However, it's not nearly as bad as most people make out -- I have had a windows XP machine directly connected to the internet since 2002 using the built-in firewall and I have not had a single intrusion. Many attempts, but nary a one that was successful. Now I don't know a thing about linux, but I do know it's not as easy to use as windows from friends who are very smart and "know" both os's very well. And until linux is as easy as windows (and I'm not forced to go rummaging around in text config files -- I hated doing that in the win31 days remember win.ini?) I won't be using it unless my job calls for it. I don't have the time mostly because I'd rather spend my free time with my wife and kids. The anti-M$ griping does get a bit tiresome and the point of the whole thread is a gripe about the griping. Not that I really give much credence to the anti-M$ griping. And just for the record, I've been programming since I was 13 and I'm now 45. I started programming on a one-line LED display HP-9000 with heat sensitive printer. Boy that was fun! Just for some fun, go read the "Unix Haters Handbook" (a copy of which I have) it'll be educational. Some of the security holes, bugs, whatever that have been found in windows were also found in unix years ago. Here's an online copy - Unix Haters Handbook[^]. Interesting that it's a M$ research weblink.
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errrrrrr i also use xp and develop for it and if one of my clients wants a glitzy shiny ui with vista i'll do it ... thats what developers do cos thats how we get paid what i was saying is simply that i follow what my customers want ... then it got dragged into a linux / windows debate by others and i simply responded ... i have no desire to evangelicize linux here ... its a ms site ... i just respond to erroneous statements made by others is all and as for real people? well the 150k+ real people per day who use one of the websites i am responsible for dont give a rats bum about what its running on in the background as long as it works ... and it does ... and it doesnt cost 10% of the cost of it running on ms software ... THATS what my customers want and i have to say they look pretty real to me as for the eye candy ... great i love it ... users love it ... but the plumbing changes in vista? to make it more secure? copied from linux / unix ... vector graphics? cairo / gtk2 ... osx? great software for people who dont know and dont want to know what goes on under the hood ur beef isnt with me cos im not mr linux ... i simply do my job according to the requirements of my clients
I loved this thread. I read the whole thing. It's great to see how fast people mentioning their feelings on their favorite OS gets turned into a pissing contest. Lauren, I think you're great at it... the pissing part I mean. l a u r e n wrote: what i was saying is simply that i follow what my customers want ... then it got dragged into a linux / windows debate by others and i simply responded ... i have no desire to evangelicize linux here ... its a ms site ... i just respond to erroneous statements made by others is all You have no desire to evangelicize linux? Really?? In an earlier post you wrote: "u made the point that linux is inferior ... ergo windows is superior ... and it isnt true and i called u out on it ... if u cant back up ur assertions then so be it" So, wait, you're not evangelicizing linux? (evangelicizing not even being a word.) Just some more of your Linux support: "the point i was making is that linux is free and windows is not ..." l a u r e n wrote: and as for real people? well the 150k+ real people per day who use one of the websites i am responsible for dont give a rats bum about what its running on in the background as long as it works ... and it does ... and it doesnt cost 10% of the cost of it running on ms software ... THATS what my customers want and i have to say they look pretty real to me So 150k is the amount of people that don't care about the operating system your site is run on? Compare that with the millions (billions?) that go with Windows. As a college student, I too have been forced to do class programming on linux machines, probably because they're cheap, like has been mentioned. So cheap that you may not believe the hours of headaches I've had to go through because of the crappy UI of linux. I'm not necessarily against linux, it just happens to be that one of the main topics from this thread that I've gotten is that people are concerned about Usability. Linux may work tons better than Windows, I don't know, because the user interface of Linux makes people want to go away. One of the major things companies can do to get people to like their product is the user interface. Would you rather tell someone, click on the picture of a computer, rather than "type apt-get install gaim". "But wait, it's not working," they say. In Windows: "Did you click on the picture of a computer?" "Oops! I clicked on the picture next to it, the picture of a duck." Or in Linux: "Ok, let's go over
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I loved this thread. I read the whole thing. It's great to see how fast people mentioning their feelings on their favorite OS gets turned into a pissing contest. Lauren, I think you're great at it... the pissing part I mean. l a u r e n wrote: what i was saying is simply that i follow what my customers want ... then it got dragged into a linux / windows debate by others and i simply responded ... i have no desire to evangelicize linux here ... its a ms site ... i just respond to erroneous statements made by others is all You have no desire to evangelicize linux? Really?? In an earlier post you wrote: "u made the point that linux is inferior ... ergo windows is superior ... and it isnt true and i called u out on it ... if u cant back up ur assertions then so be it" So, wait, you're not evangelicizing linux? (evangelicizing not even being a word.) Just some more of your Linux support: "the point i was making is that linux is free and windows is not ..." l a u r e n wrote: and as for real people? well the 150k+ real people per day who use one of the websites i am responsible for dont give a rats bum about what its running on in the background as long as it works ... and it does ... and it doesnt cost 10% of the cost of it running on ms software ... THATS what my customers want and i have to say they look pretty real to me So 150k is the amount of people that don't care about the operating system your site is run on? Compare that with the millions (billions?) that go with Windows. As a college student, I too have been forced to do class programming on linux machines, probably because they're cheap, like has been mentioned. So cheap that you may not believe the hours of headaches I've had to go through because of the crappy UI of linux. I'm not necessarily against linux, it just happens to be that one of the main topics from this thread that I've gotten is that people are concerned about Usability. Linux may work tons better than Windows, I don't know, because the user interface of Linux makes people want to go away. One of the major things companies can do to get people to like their product is the user interface. Would you rather tell someone, click on the picture of a computer, rather than "type apt-get install gaim". "But wait, it's not working," they say. In Windows: "Did you click on the picture of a computer?" "Oops! I clicked on the picture next to it, the picture of a duck." Or in Linux: "Ok, let's go over
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: a look in the KDE/Gnome-menus I have. We use Fedora Core 3 here. To clarify - are you saying that the recommended (by the OO people) way to install OO is as simple as it is for Windows?
Graham Bradshaw wrote: To clarify - are you saying that the recommended (by the OO people) way to install OO is as simple as it is for Windows? Yes. In fact, i'm saying it's even easier, given that you've chosen a distribution which is aimed towards ease of use. Pick [K]Ubuntu, and your granny will have installed OO long before you've found the download link on the openoffice site. Pick Fedora, or Gentoo you're compiler perverse, and the same process will be somewhat harder. (Although, I think Fedora's got nice capabilities for easy installation and upgrades of software. Don't know for sure, as I have not run RedHat since 4.0) Good music: In my rosary[^]
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l a u r e n wrote: thats cos the oo people dont build binaries But they do for Windows, don't they? Granted, it's slightly more complex for Linux, since it supports multiple processor architectures (x86, PPC etc), but a "packaged" install would be great. I bet most people run Linux on x68 boxes, so you'd cover most of your "market" with a single package. It seems to me (and I do build Linux installs, and install not-included-with-the-distro apps on them), that things are just harder to do in Linux. My gut feeling is that these things aren't harder to do for the people developing the installations, so there is no perceived need for them. As is always the case, everything is easy once you know how to do it, but the path to get to that point seems harder with Linux.
Graham Bradshaw wrote: But they do for Windows, don't they? They also make instructions for installing and compiling source in windows. Check out the instructions for building OO from source in windows if you are going to complain about the apples at least compare apples to apples. Building OO from windows[^] I've never built a kernel, never compiled anything other than an application I was writing, and I have used and upgraded OO under linux (mepis installed on disk), installed and synced to an Ipod, installed and synced to my Palm PDA, and even backed up my Windows disks. I've even had less problems with my HP scanner and printer under Linux than I did under Windows. I do not use Linux often, but it is pretty decent now and installs/upgrades are a piece of cake. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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and ur holier than thou fanboy bs is really tiresome too but i dont complain about it i raised the issue of my experience to make it clear i do know what im talking about as opposed to someone who has been involved in software development for ... how long judah? ur 22 so i guess 5 years maybe? ... and who has used a linux live cd (which incidentally windows cant do but never mind i digress) once or twice ... and yet u spout about how windows is superior to a product u know jack sh*t about?? go back to school please and get the self-righteous stick out of ur ass
I'm curious Lauren, do you really wonder why you get so many 1 votes?
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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I'm curious Lauren, do you really wonder why you get so many 1 votes?
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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No typo. :-) I married my wife last year. She had a son when she was in high school; the father wasn't there for him, so after we got married, I adopted him as my own. He turned 5 this January, go watch[^] his birthday party. :cool:
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Cops & Robbers Judah Himango
You are one lucky man, Judah.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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I think you'll find most people vote you a 1 for the lack of anything constructive or worth reading in 90% of your posts here. The 10% that are worthwhile are fine, but my god it is tedious trawling through all the repetative crap you post. That's my £2 and final contribution on that topic, unless you want to talk properly?
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)