A Bunch Of Crybabies?
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errrrrrr i also use xp and develop for it and if one of my clients wants a glitzy shiny ui with vista i'll do it ... thats what developers do cos thats how we get paid what i was saying is simply that i follow what my customers want ... then it got dragged into a linux / windows debate by others and i simply responded ... i have no desire to evangelicize linux here ... its a ms site ... i just respond to erroneous statements made by others is all and as for real people? well the 150k+ real people per day who use one of the websites i am responsible for dont give a rats bum about what its running on in the background as long as it works ... and it does ... and it doesnt cost 10% of the cost of it running on ms software ... THATS what my customers want and i have to say they look pretty real to me as for the eye candy ... great i love it ... users love it ... but the plumbing changes in vista? to make it more secure? copied from linux / unix ... vector graphics? cairo / gtk2 ... osx? great software for people who dont know and dont want to know what goes on under the hood ur beef isnt with me cos im not mr linux ... i simply do my job according to the requirements of my clients
I loved this thread. I read the whole thing. It's great to see how fast people mentioning their feelings on their favorite OS gets turned into a pissing contest. Lauren, I think you're great at it... the pissing part I mean. l a u r e n wrote: what i was saying is simply that i follow what my customers want ... then it got dragged into a linux / windows debate by others and i simply responded ... i have no desire to evangelicize linux here ... its a ms site ... i just respond to erroneous statements made by others is all You have no desire to evangelicize linux? Really?? In an earlier post you wrote: "u made the point that linux is inferior ... ergo windows is superior ... and it isnt true and i called u out on it ... if u cant back up ur assertions then so be it" So, wait, you're not evangelicizing linux? (evangelicizing not even being a word.) Just some more of your Linux support: "the point i was making is that linux is free and windows is not ..." l a u r e n wrote: and as for real people? well the 150k+ real people per day who use one of the websites i am responsible for dont give a rats bum about what its running on in the background as long as it works ... and it does ... and it doesnt cost 10% of the cost of it running on ms software ... THATS what my customers want and i have to say they look pretty real to me So 150k is the amount of people that don't care about the operating system your site is run on? Compare that with the millions (billions?) that go with Windows. As a college student, I too have been forced to do class programming on linux machines, probably because they're cheap, like has been mentioned. So cheap that you may not believe the hours of headaches I've had to go through because of the crappy UI of linux. I'm not necessarily against linux, it just happens to be that one of the main topics from this thread that I've gotten is that people are concerned about Usability. Linux may work tons better than Windows, I don't know, because the user interface of Linux makes people want to go away. One of the major things companies can do to get people to like their product is the user interface. Would you rather tell someone, click on the picture of a computer, rather than "type apt-get install gaim". "But wait, it's not working," they say. In Windows: "Did you click on the picture of a computer?" "Oops! I clicked on the picture next to it, the picture of a duck." Or in Linux: "Ok, let's go over
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I loved this thread. I read the whole thing. It's great to see how fast people mentioning their feelings on their favorite OS gets turned into a pissing contest. Lauren, I think you're great at it... the pissing part I mean. l a u r e n wrote: what i was saying is simply that i follow what my customers want ... then it got dragged into a linux / windows debate by others and i simply responded ... i have no desire to evangelicize linux here ... its a ms site ... i just respond to erroneous statements made by others is all You have no desire to evangelicize linux? Really?? In an earlier post you wrote: "u made the point that linux is inferior ... ergo windows is superior ... and it isnt true and i called u out on it ... if u cant back up ur assertions then so be it" So, wait, you're not evangelicizing linux? (evangelicizing not even being a word.) Just some more of your Linux support: "the point i was making is that linux is free and windows is not ..." l a u r e n wrote: and as for real people? well the 150k+ real people per day who use one of the websites i am responsible for dont give a rats bum about what its running on in the background as long as it works ... and it does ... and it doesnt cost 10% of the cost of it running on ms software ... THATS what my customers want and i have to say they look pretty real to me So 150k is the amount of people that don't care about the operating system your site is run on? Compare that with the millions (billions?) that go with Windows. As a college student, I too have been forced to do class programming on linux machines, probably because they're cheap, like has been mentioned. So cheap that you may not believe the hours of headaches I've had to go through because of the crappy UI of linux. I'm not necessarily against linux, it just happens to be that one of the main topics from this thread that I've gotten is that people are concerned about Usability. Linux may work tons better than Windows, I don't know, because the user interface of Linux makes people want to go away. One of the major things companies can do to get people to like their product is the user interface. Would you rather tell someone, click on the picture of a computer, rather than "type apt-get install gaim". "But wait, it's not working," they say. In Windows: "Did you click on the picture of a computer?" "Oops! I clicked on the picture next to it, the picture of a duck." Or in Linux: "Ok, let's go over
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: a look in the KDE/Gnome-menus I have. We use Fedora Core 3 here. To clarify - are you saying that the recommended (by the OO people) way to install OO is as simple as it is for Windows?
Graham Bradshaw wrote: To clarify - are you saying that the recommended (by the OO people) way to install OO is as simple as it is for Windows? Yes. In fact, i'm saying it's even easier, given that you've chosen a distribution which is aimed towards ease of use. Pick [K]Ubuntu, and your granny will have installed OO long before you've found the download link on the openoffice site. Pick Fedora, or Gentoo you're compiler perverse, and the same process will be somewhat harder. (Although, I think Fedora's got nice capabilities for easy installation and upgrades of software. Don't know for sure, as I have not run RedHat since 4.0) Good music: In my rosary[^]
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l a u r e n wrote: thats cos the oo people dont build binaries But they do for Windows, don't they? Granted, it's slightly more complex for Linux, since it supports multiple processor architectures (x86, PPC etc), but a "packaged" install would be great. I bet most people run Linux on x68 boxes, so you'd cover most of your "market" with a single package. It seems to me (and I do build Linux installs, and install not-included-with-the-distro apps on them), that things are just harder to do in Linux. My gut feeling is that these things aren't harder to do for the people developing the installations, so there is no perceived need for them. As is always the case, everything is easy once you know how to do it, but the path to get to that point seems harder with Linux.
Graham Bradshaw wrote: But they do for Windows, don't they? They also make instructions for installing and compiling source in windows. Check out the instructions for building OO from source in windows if you are going to complain about the apples at least compare apples to apples. Building OO from windows[^] I've never built a kernel, never compiled anything other than an application I was writing, and I have used and upgraded OO under linux (mepis installed on disk), installed and synced to an Ipod, installed and synced to my Palm PDA, and even backed up my Windows disks. I've even had less problems with my HP scanner and printer under Linux than I did under Windows. I do not use Linux often, but it is pretty decent now and installs/upgrades are a piece of cake. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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and ur holier than thou fanboy bs is really tiresome too but i dont complain about it i raised the issue of my experience to make it clear i do know what im talking about as opposed to someone who has been involved in software development for ... how long judah? ur 22 so i guess 5 years maybe? ... and who has used a linux live cd (which incidentally windows cant do but never mind i digress) once or twice ... and yet u spout about how windows is superior to a product u know jack sh*t about?? go back to school please and get the self-righteous stick out of ur ass
I'm curious Lauren, do you really wonder why you get so many 1 votes?
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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I'm curious Lauren, do you really wonder why you get so many 1 votes?
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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No typo. :-) I married my wife last year. She had a son when she was in high school; the father wasn't there for him, so after we got married, I adopted him as my own. He turned 5 this January, go watch[^] his birthday party. :cool:
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Cops & Robbers Judah Himango
You are one lucky man, Judah.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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I think you'll find most people vote you a 1 for the lack of anything constructive or worth reading in 90% of your posts here. The 10% that are worthwhile are fine, but my god it is tedious trawling through all the repetative crap you post. That's my £2 and final contribution on that topic, unless you want to talk properly?
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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I think you'll find most people vote you a 1 for the lack of anything constructive or worth reading in 90% of your posts here. The 10% that are worthwhile are fine, but my god it is tedious trawling through all the repetative crap you post. That's my £2 and final contribution on that topic, unless you want to talk properly?
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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Because it is something that interests me, both professionally and personally, maybe it would also interest you to know I use Fedora Core, FreeBSD, SUSE and Ubunto as a developer pretty much daily? Hour for hour I spend more time using Microsoft products, but that is because I am paid to use them. So please, take the advice that has been offered to you and pull your ego out of your own arse Lauren and think before you type. You'll find people will respect you then. The misunderstood little girl locking herself in the bathroom and sobing her eyes out, listening carefully to make sure she is heard, only works for the first five minutes before people simply ignore you.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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Because it is something that interests me, both professionally and personally, maybe it would also interest you to know I use Fedora Core, FreeBSD, SUSE and Ubunto as a developer pretty much daily? Hour for hour I spend more time using Microsoft products, but that is because I am paid to use them. So please, take the advice that has been offered to you and pull your ego out of your own arse Lauren and think before you type. You'll find people will respect you then. The misunderstood little girl locking herself in the bathroom and sobing her eyes out, listening carefully to make sure she is heard, only works for the first five minutes before people simply ignore you.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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l a u r e n wrote: btw its ubuntu No, it is Ubuntu.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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Graham Bradshaw wrote: But they do for Windows, don't they? They also make instructions for installing and compiling source in windows. Check out the instructions for building OO from source in windows if you are going to complain about the apples at least compare apples to apples. Building OO from windows[^] I've never built a kernel, never compiled anything other than an application I was writing, and I have used and upgraded OO under linux (mepis installed on disk), installed and synced to an Ipod, installed and synced to my Palm PDA, and even backed up my Windows disks. I've even had less problems with my HP scanner and printer under Linux than I did under Windows. I do not use Linux often, but it is pretty decent now and installs/upgrades are a piece of cake. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote: compare apples to apples I was. You're not. I was comparing instaling prebuilt packages for Windows and Linux. Read the original set of instructions that I posted, and tell me where it mentions compiling anything at all...
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Because it is something that interests me, both professionally and personally, maybe it would also interest you to know I use Fedora Core, FreeBSD, SUSE and Ubunto as a developer pretty much daily? Hour for hour I spend more time using Microsoft products, but that is because I am paid to use them. So please, take the advice that has been offered to you and pull your ego out of your own arse Lauren and think before you type. You'll find people will respect you then. The misunderstood little girl locking herself in the bathroom and sobing her eyes out, listening carefully to make sure she is heard, only works for the first five minutes before people simply ignore you.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
well said, David! Lauren is a brat that is need of a serious spanking. You have my fiver!
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Why is it that so many people complain about development/evolution of software? Every time MS comes with something new and fancy people go "I Can not afford to develop stuff like that" or "I don't like it, I'm switching to Linux" So maybe you cannot afford to hire a designer for your application, but should progress stop because of that? Just compare todays 24-bit antialiased icons an fancy XP GUI with Win 3.1. Compare the difference between now and the previews of Vista/Office 12 and the difference is not that big. We have all survived the progress so far and we will continue to do so if we spend our energy on our business instead of complaining... And why is it that every time people see something new which they don't fancy thay say they switch to Linux or something? Please do so, I don't know that many successfull commercial applications for Linux and I don't think we will see many any time soon. Please do realize that MS has a lot of money to use on usability tests and they DO spend loads of money on it. Include that with the fact that most developers don't know anything about usability and designing usefull GUI's and even a kid can figure out who us right when it comes to GUI's: MS or the small developer shop... - Anders
Frankly, some 'commercial artists' out there aren't good at UI graphics. Earlier in the summer we were instructed to update some button pictures in our product. These metafiles are supposed to resemble some of our equipment, and they were a little dated. I went to Tech Pubs, and spent two weeks trying to sheperd one of their artists through the process of making these pictures. His pictures had poor color balance, with shades of gray that were indistinguishable on the screen. Proportions were off, and his use of perspective was bizarre. I ended up chucking what the artist did, and drawing them myself in Visio. I created the pictures I needed in two days.
Software Zen:
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I loved this thread. I read the whole thing. It's great to see how fast people mentioning their feelings on their favorite OS gets turned into a pissing contest. Lauren, I think you're great at it... the pissing part I mean. l a u r e n wrote: what i was saying is simply that i follow what my customers want ... then it got dragged into a linux / windows debate by others and i simply responded ... i have no desire to evangelicize linux here ... its a ms site ... i just respond to erroneous statements made by others is all You have no desire to evangelicize linux? Really?? In an earlier post you wrote: "u made the point that linux is inferior ... ergo windows is superior ... and it isnt true and i called u out on it ... if u cant back up ur assertions then so be it" So, wait, you're not evangelicizing linux? (evangelicizing not even being a word.) Just some more of your Linux support: "the point i was making is that linux is free and windows is not ..." l a u r e n wrote: and as for real people? well the 150k+ real people per day who use one of the websites i am responsible for dont give a rats bum about what its running on in the background as long as it works ... and it does ... and it doesnt cost 10% of the cost of it running on ms software ... THATS what my customers want and i have to say they look pretty real to me So 150k is the amount of people that don't care about the operating system your site is run on? Compare that with the millions (billions?) that go with Windows. As a college student, I too have been forced to do class programming on linux machines, probably because they're cheap, like has been mentioned. So cheap that you may not believe the hours of headaches I've had to go through because of the crappy UI of linux. I'm not necessarily against linux, it just happens to be that one of the main topics from this thread that I've gotten is that people are concerned about Usability. Linux may work tons better than Windows, I don't know, because the user interface of Linux makes people want to go away. One of the major things companies can do to get people to like their product is the user interface. Would you rather tell someone, click on the picture of a computer, rather than "type apt-get install gaim". "But wait, it's not working," they say. In Windows: "Did you click on the picture of a computer?" "Oops! I clicked on the picture next to it, the picture of a duck." Or in Linux: "Ok, let's go over
well put, you have my 5.
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote: compare apples to apples I was. You're not. I was comparing instaling prebuilt packages for Windows and Linux. Read the original set of instructions that I posted, and tell me where it mentions compiling anything at all...
Graham Bradshaw wrote: I was. You're not. I was comparing instaling prebuilt packages for Windows and Linux. Read the original set of instructions that I posted, and tell me where it mentions compiling anything at all... Hey I am not a big user of Linux, it has it's own hard drive and gets less than 1% use, it's only there because work needs Linux on rare occasions and my home system matches work (albiet one machine, multiple drives rather than 3 computers at work). But at least I am honest about how Linux works today. To install OO, I check for current updates of all packages, highlight the latest OO, check it, and click install. That's it. No more, no less. It's downloaded and installed in 5 minutes. You can do that with every package known to your package manager. I am no expert, I don't know where the lists are published, but that is ALL you have to do to install a program on Linux. I even pulled down and installed a few things in Linux I didn't know existed since the package manager includes full descriptions as well. you can roll back updates just as easy. It's not much different than Add/Remove programs in Windows control panel, except that it handles install and removal from a similar interface. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Lauren, I've never had a beef with you. I love the fact that you're here and that you seem to attract so much trouble. It was kinda boring when you were gone. ;) However, as far as the whole "copied from..." thing, I'm reminded of the words of Solomon: "There is nothing new under the sun." Yeah, Microsoft's behind the ball on UI, Security, etc. But some of this stuff they're way ahead in. For instance, the Linq Project[^]. Holy crap, it's waaaay cool. I'm at PDC and I've been going to almost every session on Linq that I could go to. I haven't seen this in any other programming langauge out there. Parts of it are in other languages (Lambda expressions, inference typing, and object initializers come to mind), but not all wrapped into this one big langauge integrated data query method that works over any enumerable collection. People here are complaining that the DLinq portion of Linq is just a fancy ORM layer...and that's partially true. So yeah, Microsoft's copying other ORM packages, but Linq and the standard query expressions itself, totally new. Linux is a copy of Unix. Windows is a copy of the MacOS. OpenOffice is a copy of Microsoft Office. Your software is a copy of some other software. There's not a whole lot of new stuff that comes out.
Picture a huge catholic cathedral. In it there's many people, including a gregorian monk choir. You know, those who sing beautifully. Then they start singing, in latin, as they always do: "Ad hominem..." -Jörgen Sigvardsson
David Stone wrote: For instance, the Linq Project[^]. Holy crap, it's waaaay cool. David Stone wrote: People here are complaining that the DLinq portion of Linq is just a fancy ORM layer Had to throw a "For Sure!" in here. After watching the video on it, it hit me that Linq is not about databases or ORM, it is about data management and is used on any kind of data you have that you need to order or analyze. I have hear commetent about the compare to ORM or breaking down n-tier apps, but it really can work for business object management as well as any kind of data. It is finally a data tool that is outside the "database" box. Kind of like strapping up a SQL Server query engine on any data you happen to have in a program. Really cool stuff! Not only this, but Linq will more than likely break my lazy habit of using datasets far to often. I know it will help improve my applications designs. I am sure it will save my hundreds if not thousands of hours in the future. Opps.. Didn't mean to run off, but I just love Linq! Rocky <>< My Blog[^]